235 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Unit47, on 18 August 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

#YESPLEASE

so we can finally shut down the nerf-this-buff-that-discussions from Tier5 players immediately

I want to believe that you're totally aware of what you're doing, that your post is actually totally ironic and you're just making a joke based on all the people who explicitly predicted this kind of behaviour in this thread.

But since you've only got 37 posts and already a 1 star forum rating, I'm not sure if serious.

[Fate 6]

I'm tired of bad players coming to the forums to complain about their teammates like their 150 damage assault mech score wasn't part of the issue.

I'm also interested in seeing how I rank. I suspect highest tier. Hopefully we'll get even more specific rankings so I can see where I'm at within my tier as well.

Public tiers!

[ApolloKaras]

Alistair Winter, on 18 August 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

Whether the same can be said about "tier 5" pug games vs "tier 1" pug games, we don't know. Self-proclaimed elite pilots and recognized elite pilots are saying that the game is totally different at their level. You hear hipster statements like "Oh,you're using PPCs? That's cute. Yeah, nobody uses those in my games. We're using the new CUAC10-builds, you probably haven't heard about them."

It'll be wonderful to actually shed some light on what's going on, instead of relying on hearsay. It's 2015, for God's sake. It sucks that we're still relying on rumours and hearsay to understand how different people play the game.

There are many resources to see what the current meta is, or what the strongest play is... There are/were numerous streams up showing some pretty damned accomplished pilots doing their thing. You can learn movement, weapon loadouts etc from these. Also watching competitive matches - another good resource.

We can find out how differently people are playing the game just by asking in the forums. To say we need all the tiers to be required to be public to see how the higher tier folks are playing makes no sense.... If you use the resources available to you.

Now you do have a few oddities, TFun comes to mind he normally does play mechs a little off of the meta, but there is a mainstream.

Edited by Saxie, 18 August 2015 - 05:40 AM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

PGI features like the user interface seem to improve a little with community feedback.

Maybe a publicly viewable tier matching system would also benefit from being transparent and viewable by the public.

[Tahribator]

I hope they keep them private. It'll lead to a lot of shitposting and "LOLOL L2P your opinion is invalid" arguments on both here and Reddit.

I mean obviously someone who only plays with the FOTM overpowered stuff will be in a higher tier compared to those people who enjoy variety. Does that make the opinions of the latter less valid or make them worse players? People will be inevitably stamped according to their tiers and it'll only polarize the community.

Keep them private.

[Vellron2005]

I firmly believe that Player skill Tiers should be "toggleable" both in-game and on the forums.. meaning that they can be public if the player so chooses. If a player wishes to hide this rating, he should be able to. If She takes pride in showing it off, again she should be able to.

its a matter of personal choice.

Of course, there will always be those a-holes who will show it off too much, patronise others with it, or strive to make others feel like they suck cose they ain't them... but that's the same in everything such people do.. weather its gold mechs, special tags, or grocely overpriced bundles, some people will always be douches..

Edited by Vellron2005, 18 August 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[Screech]

Seems that the nurses really want to show off. Maybe if everyone knew how good they really would people would give a **** about their thoughts. It would almost be worth it to see their reaction after everyone still gave no shits.

[Unit47]

Alistair Winter, on 18 August 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

I want to believe that you're totally aware of what you're doing, that your post is actually totally ironic and you're just making a joke based on all the people who explicitly predicted this kind of behaviour in this thread.

But since you've only got 37 posts and already a 1 star forum rating, I'm not sure if serious.

Dead serious.

Balancing in every successful PVP game (SC, DOTA, LOL, etc) is 95% based on Tier1 players and nothing else. Basing balance on the lower tier players has never done any good and usually ends in disaster creating a ******** boring meta at the highest tier.

Remember the times when this game was Jumpsniping or go home? The top tier units warned PGI about the possible side effects of overbuffing PPC's before they applied the buff, they got ignored and the lower tiers got ***** by 3D's, HGN's and VKT's. After years of whining PGI finally nerfed JJ's into oblivion, again being warned about the side effects before by the Tier1 units - now we have the mighty Lowlander. Same with the quirks on some mechs etc etc.

If you don't listen to your most experienced playerbase you will create a disaster for the masses.

Another example: LRM's they are useless once you left the underhive and have never been used in comp play since the days of dragon bowling and Godtier-Ravens, yet we have threads popping up every week telling PGI to nerf or to buff them - the whole mechanic needs to be changed tbh - or threads telling new players that they are actually totally fine and super-competitive and that tier1 units are just to bad to understand them.

Edited by Unit47, 18 August 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Unit47, on 18 August 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Dead serious.

Balancing in every successful PVP game (SC, DOTA, LOL, etc) is 95% based on Tier1 players and nothing else. Basing balance on the lower tier players has never done any good and usually ends in desaster creating a ******** boring meta at the highest tier.

Remember the times when this game was Jumpsniping or go home? The top tier units warned PGI about the possible side effects of overbuffing PPC's before they applied the buff, they got ignored and the lower tiers got ***** by 3D's, HGN's and VKT's. After years of whining PGI finally nerfed JJ's into oblivion, again being warned about the side effects before by the Tier1 units - now we have the mighty Lowlander. Same with the quirks on some mechs etc etc.

If you don't listen to your most experienced playerbase you will create a desaster for the masses.

Another example: LRM's they are useless once you left the underhive and have never been used in comp play since the days of dragon bowling and Godtier-Ravens, yet we have threads popping up every week telling PGI to nerf or to buff them - the whole mechanic needs to be changed tbh - or threads telling new players that they are actually totally fine and super-competitive and that tier1 units are just to bad to understand them.

the issue with MWO is skill, the wepaons systems require a massive amount of differnt skill. A top pilot can use everything equally well, but doesn't use those not working because people know how to negate some weaponsystems and their playstyle.
.
While in lower tiers people make only a few work, and the lack of skill puts massive efficientcy on some weapon system. thats why lrm's are Op in the lower ranks and nearly nonexisting in the top ranks. MWO is a bit less linear in this playstyle as many MOBA's And this means balancing around the top would not necessarily impsove the lower end tiers gamers experience. it would probably even make it worse.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 August 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[sycocys]

I'd be cool with it being temporarily 100% public - say for 3-6 months for the exact reason you suggest. Player feedback and having us beta players being able to ensure that it's actually working. I really have a hard time just taking PGI (Russ) on his word concerning such things quite honestly.

After a set amount of time though, I'd prefer to see it opt-in public with it always being shown to yourself. Couple reasons for that -
1. Russ's vision for 'e-sport' completely skews your elo value and its value in the game. Things like being a spectacular light/scout will still rank low in most cases. And the tourney/sport mindset he wants makes it a more serious endeavor for many, which will ruin the day for less serious minded players - aka heading towards xbox live atmosphere. We honestly have enough players bitter with PGI's insanely slow progress that we don't need to add reasons/ways for them to be bitter to each other.

2. It would just be a nice gesture to give players that option, AFTER we know it works properly. Especially the new, lower tier players that don't want to get ragged on by hotheads, we are going to steam after all.


End of the day I hope this system will up the quality of players though, and have people searching and working together to find ways to increase their skills.

[Flapdrol]

Secret stats is the best decision pgi hasn't reversed yet.

Getting good stats doesn't require some special skill, module up some metamechs, play with a good group and spam the consumables.

Public stats will enevitably lead to "my stats are better, your opinion is invalid" in gamebalance discussions. Happening a bit already, I remember when clan mechs were introduced some idiot was proclaiming they weren't OP but only good players had bought them, or something.

[Dimento Graven]

Alistair Winter, on 18 August 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

The problem right now is that nobody knows their Elo ranking and yet almost everyone is talking about MWO like they're playing the same meta-game. Like the meta-game is exactly the same in the steering wheel underhive as it is for the most dedicated competitive players. Now, there is a pinch of truth, due to the fact that Matchmaker is terrible and regularly pits complete scrubs (in the true meaning of the word, i.e. people who have played less than a week) against the most skilled 3-year veterans. But when you look at steering wheel underhive pug matches with the top level tournament games, it's truly apples and oranges.

Whether the same can be said about "tier 5" pug games vs "tier 1" pug games, we don't know. Self-proclaimed elite pilots and recognized elite pilots are saying that the game is totally different at their level. You hear hipster statements like "Oh,you're using PPCs? That's cute. Yeah, nobody uses those in my games. We're using the new CUAC10-builds, you probably haven't heard about them."

It'll be wonderful to actually shed some light on what's going on, instead of relying on hearsay. It's 2015, for God's sake. It sucks that we're still relying on rumours and hearsay to understand how different people play the game.

Well first off, we all know that the elo system failed, and it failed miserably. It was based mostly off a single metric, win or lose, applied in a gaming system that had at the bottom mean a 24^3^200^2^8 power of variables that could affect your game's out come, and again at a MINIMUM (translate that to 24 players, 3 game modes, upwards of 200 different 'mech builds, whether you are in group queue or solo queue, number of maps we've had throughout most of elo's existence). Boiling ALL THAT down to a win/loss, even for each weight class is absolutely mind bogglingly short sighted.

Thus, it never worked, and would have no matter how many people we had available.

HOWEVER, during all that time we've had access to our own stats page. I can't recall seeing anyone taking a screenshot of their stats page and posting it as argument as to why their argument had any more merit, or to berate any other individual's skills.

Crimany I haven't even looked at my stats page in months... I probably should, and I SHOULD probably post it just make MY argument here more relevant... No wait... It doesn't apply here does it?

See?

No poop thrown, let's move along.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 18 August 2015 - 06:31 AM.

[kapusta11]

Flapdrol, on 18 August 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Public stats will enevitably lead to "my stats are better, your opinion is invalid" in gamebalance discussions.

You make it sound like a bad thing.

[Hotthedd]

Anybody who judges the validity of an argument or suggestion on the basis of one's ability to point-n-click has a lot of reading to do on the subject of logic and fallacies.

[Tally]

Public stats is probably one of the worst ideas ever thought of in a game. Best evidence? World of Tanks.

Keep public stats out of MWO. Focus on better maps, expanding player base and better game modes!

[MechWarrior414712]

ITT all naysayers here are below average players

[Felbombling]

Kjudoon, on 17 August 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

Also Staggercheck, gamers be gamers yo?

We live in a world where athletes complain about their Madden stats to the company. Gamers will too even moreso.

Because we can all win a participant trophy

True... but I can be totally polite and accepting of everyone in game, despite what I might see as a difference in skill level or contribution towards victory. I'm wondering what pleasure or sense of accomplishment an elite player feels by insulting another human being based not on some perceived slight, but by a comparison of numbers on a screen and an assumption of future performance in game.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Alistair Winter, on 17 August 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

I think we should have public player tiers. I have no idea what tier of player I would be, probably somewhere between 2 and 4. Definitely, definitely not a tier 1 player unless they make tier 1 the largest group. But I still want public player tiers.

Why?

• First and foremost, I want to see that the system is working. Just like it's easy to compare the tonnage disparity between teams after a match, I want it to be easy to compare the player tiers between teams. It means I can get upset if my team of twelve tier 4 players were matched up against twelve tier 2 players. But it also means I can be happy if I know for a fact that both teams have a fairly even distribution of skilled players.
  
• It means we'll finally have some empirical evidence that roflstomps are not always a result of individual skills. If matchmaker successfully puts equally skilled players on both teams, blaming everything on your team being morons isn't quite as easy. It will still happen, of course. But not quite as often, I think.
  
• It'll give me a goal to work for. Right now, I keep an eye on my WLR and KDR, because those are the only tangible goals in the endgame. I couldn't care less about mastering all the mechs in the game or getting all the modules. The actual achievement system doesn't work like it's supposed to. Give me a tangible goal! Something in the horizon to keep my eye on in the endless sequence of random matches.
  
• If it turns out to be a disaster, they can always change it! Making public tiers private is most likely done at the click of a button! But I'd rather try it and remove it rather than never seeing it in action, and just hoping that it works the way they tell us.

Yes, I'm sure there will be some elitism. Yes, I'm sure a few tier 1 players will lord it over other players and talk loudly about having to carry tier 2 players. Yes, I'm sure people will bring it up in discussions on the forum. So what?



This is just a video game for adults who still play with robots. This isn't serious business. Who cares if someone insults my skills or your skills? It's just something to do when you're killing time between activities in life that actually matter. It's just a game.

EDIT: Good suggestion, so I'm including it in the OP:

My vote is Yes, I do want this.

I totally 100% support making tiers publicly visible.

Just off the top of my head with recent games I've played:

World of Warcraft even has it so you can look up characters online so you can see everything they have, from their specs to their gear.

Planetside 2 you see everyone's level, and even get to see the stats of who killed you.

In MW:O, please show my Tier, my stats, my mechs and accomplishments.

[Almond Brown]

slide, on 17 August 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

I have to think about this some more.

I am not sure that the benefits you mention will outweigh the potential rage and abuse towards other players and also at PGI for allowing it to happen. Not to mention all the whine threads about "being matched up against player x, how dare MM do that when my PSR is higher/lower than player x".

Privately I don't have an issue knowing what it is, indeed I would like to confirm or deny my own opinion of myself.

Public is a different issue and there are plenty of people on these forums who will simply dismiss you or pick on you for having anything to say simply because your PSR is below their's.

Public PSR might create more conflict than it could solve.

And to add to that sentiment. Sitting in LFG and not getting picked because some DBag "looked" you up... is never, ever a good thing...

If PGI wishes to kill the use of the LFG system for Solo's, then show Tiers publicly. Otherwise...

[Dimento Graven]

StaggerCheck, on 18 August 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

True... but I can be totally polite and accepting of everyone in game, despite what I might see as a difference in skill level or contribution towards victory. I'm wondering what pleasure or sense of accomplishment an elite player feels by insulting another human being based not on some perceived slight, but by a comparison of numbers on a screen and an assumption of future performance in game.

Yes, theoretically we can be polite and accepting of everyone in game, however, when it comes to debating specific features or changes in the game, do we really want to grant the same 'gravitas' of a person's argument with that of a Tier 1 player with a 16.1 KDR, vs. someone who, if they didn't automatically drop his ass from the dropship, he'd probably kill himself and everyone on the drop ship by derping his way into the fuel storage and blowing the team's **** up?

Seriously, there are people that are EXTREMELY bad at this game, whether due to a lack of skill, old out dated equipment that can't handle this game, craptastic connectivity, or some personal handicap, giving the 'bottom of the barrel' equal voice with the best of the best will only muddle the arguments.

Almond Brown, on 18 August 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

And to add to that sentiment. Sitting in LFG and not getting picked because some DBag "looked" you up... is never, ever a good thing...

If PGI wishes to kill the use of the LFG system for Solo's, then show Tiers publicly. Otherwise...

I mean the following statement with all seriousness:

You mean people are actually USING the LFG?!?!!?

Every time I use it, it looks like I'm the only one!