235 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

PGI didn't announce that.

Lugh, on 18 August 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Everquest by and large was a horrible PvP system.

(This from a Ranger that rarely lost in any of the tournaments they (server people)ran).

EQ PvP was an afterthought - they didn't design it in from the ground up like WoW did. So you had some things that were just utterly broken - like any magic user trying to duel a max-resist warrior.

[Davers]

TWIAFU, on 18 August 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

Why I like this system so much!

All tier movement is player dependent, no more carries!

Win or loose, if the player preforms badly they will stay even if the TEAM wins, go down if the TEAM looses.

Teamwork is vital in PSR and I love it! Good and bad players will be separate.

It's still totally about the team though. If your team gets rolled fast, you won't have the time or opportunity to get a good match score. And if the team is doing really well, even a scrub player can rack up extra points. Nothing has really changed, other than PGI promising not to pit the best players against the worst. But we don't know what the percentages breakdown of the tiers are. Tier 1 and 5 may only constitute 6% of the entire player base or it could be 40%.

Alistair Winter, on 18 August 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

The problem right now is that nobody knows their Elo ranking and yet almost everyone is talking about MWO like they're playing the same meta-game. Like the meta-game is exactly the same in the steering wheel underhive as it is for the most dedicated competitive players. Now, there is a pinch of truth, due to the fact that Matchmaker is terrible and regularly pits complete scrubs (in the true meaning of the word, i.e. people who have played less than a week) against the most skilled 3-year veterans. But when you look at steering wheel underhive pug matches with the top level tournament games, it's truly apples and oranges.

Whether the same can be said about "tier 5" pug games vs "tier 1" pug games, we don't know. Self-proclaimed elite pilots and recognized elite pilots are saying that the game is totally different at their level. You hear hipster statements like "Oh,you're using PPCs? That's cute. Yeah, nobody uses those in my games. We're using the new CUAC10-builds, you probably haven't heard about them."

It'll be wonderful to actually shed some light on what's going on, instead of relying on hearsay. It's 2015, for God's sake. It sucks that we're still relying on rumours and hearsay to understand how different people play the game.

We already know there is a radical change in how the game is played at the extremes of Elo. Low Elo players live in a world where no one can escape from the lethal rain of LRMs and light mechs can solo half the team.

[Johnny Z]

Jman5, on 18 August 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

I'm kind of on the fence on this.

On the one hand I want to see my tier and I don't care if you all can see mine. I'm also curious where some of you stand in the grand scheme of things.

On the other hand, some of you will start to act like real shits once you get your hands on this data.


I would say at the very least have an opt-out policy and make it only viewable on the website.

Opposite view here. It should only be in game if at all.

Like my previous reply, other games show this with gold silver bronze icon near the players name. How this game would show it?

If ranks are shown on the galaxy map matches which has already been stated as being a possible way Mechwarrior is going, the idea that tiers would show on Solaris naturally comes to mind.

If alot of people wouldnt like that then I see no reason to add it. Im sure there will be other ways for players to show of trophies won on Solaris hopefully or what ever.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 August 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Ano]

Void Angel, on 18 August 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Being a high-ranked player doesn't make you a very smart person by default. It may simply mean you have great fine motor control, hand-eye coordination, and reflexes - along with all the nuanced intellect of a thrown brick. I've seen a lot of posters who fit the latter definition, and I just don't need the hassle.

This is partly what I was getting at earlier, and equally, I might be completely cognisant of the right tactics and and mech builds/capabilities but physically incapable when it comes to putting virtual ordnance on target.

I do also think it's important for the opinions of players in the low tiers to be heard -- and not just because it's likely I am one. Even if you aren't going to use them for balance data, PGI desperately needs to improve the new player experience, and given that most new players will start at the bottom, hearing what those players struggle with could help steer revised tutorials or other new player experience tweaks.

Edited by Ano, 18 August 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Obadiah333]

I Zeratul I, on 18 August 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

What if people who did well in tournaments made fun of those who did poorly? What if those who scored high in tournaments and used their ranking to look down on others and pretend that other peoples opinions were invalid? Based on these concerns -- we should never have tournaments or weekend events ever.

Based on what you said, we should never have weekend tournaments, events or e-sports in this game. Because those who did well could use their ranking to look down on others. Those in clans like SJR could use their status as a means to try and make everyone else's opinion seem invalid. Well, if you look at this forum I doubt anyone from SJR even bothers posting here because there's so much misinformation and nonsense spammed here on a regular basis that most people couldn't even stomach reading these forums.

I get the feeling what you're saying is some offshoot of political correctness I don't agree with. I don't agree with the idea that anything and everything in life should be censored. If weekend tournaments have the potential to hurt peoples feeling I don't agree that they should be censored. If in game rankings have the potential to hurt peoples feelings I don't agree with censorship of stats for identical reasons.

I don't think my focus was about peoples feelings getting hurt. That is certainly going to result with or without public ranking. My major concerns (sorry to repeat these but obviously they weren't that clear from the previous post) are:

Forum discussions will no longer be ruled by logical conclusions, facts and insight, but will be reduced to a "higher tier guys are right, everyone else is wrong" kinda derpfest.

Recruiting will be run by elitists, and no house/faction/clan is going to want to recruit anyone below tier 1 ranking. Honestly, how many factions are going to be out there looking for "tier 4 players only." The answer is NONE. This will exlude a lot of players and make them not want to play the game or join a house/clan.

New player experience will be worse off, and public shaming and outright rudeness will skyrocket. Do you think new players need any more difficulties in this game than they have now? If we wan't more people to play this game and grow the community, we need to make it easier (and nicer), otherwise this game will be as populous as the CW que is currently.

I'm not sure what the correlation between what I said and doing well in tournaments is, but please feel free to pm me with further details if you wish. I'm not opposed to a dialog about the issue and what might or might not work as far as public elo is concerned.

[Piney II]

Well said, Obadiah!

[mark v92]

Obadiah333, on 18 August 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Recruiting will be run by elitists, and no house/faction/clan is going to want to recruit anyone below tier 1 ranking. Honestly, how many factions are going to be out there looking for "tier 4 players only." The answer is NONE. This will exlude a lot of players and make them not want to play the game or join a house/clan.

New player experience will be worse off, and public shaming and outright rudeness will skyrocket. Do you think new players need any more difficulties in this game than they have now? If we wan't more people to play this game and grow the community, we need to make it easier (and nicer), otherwise this game will be as populous as the CW que is currently.

I'm not sure what the correlation between what I said and doing well in tournaments is, but please feel free to pm me with further details if you wish. I'm not opposed to a dialog about the issue and what might or might not work as far as public elo is concerned.

Well forum stuff aside, people will only play public with/against their own tier or 1 tier higher or lower. So its not like a tier 1 player can shame a tier 4 (new)player.
While forum recruiting can be done, im now in a unit which recruited (handpicked) all its members ingame. This will mean all units that will be recruiting ingame now will pick people of around the same tier as they are themselves as this is who they play with/against anyway.

If a tier 1 unit sees a tier 2 player who is interesting they can always recruit him if they see potential in the player. Thats not much different than before

Edited by mark v92, 18 August 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Man what a bunch of snowflakes

"There may be bad discrimination" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Lugh]

mark v92, on 18 August 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Well forum stuff aside, people will only play public with/against their own tier or 1 tier higher or lower. So its not like a tier 1 player can shame a tier 4 (new)player.
While forum recruiting can be done, im now in a unit which recruited (handpicked) all its members ingame. This will mean all units that will be recruiting ingame now will pick people of around the same tier as they are themselves as this is who they play with/against anyway.

If a tier 1 unit sees a tier 2 player who is interesting they can always recruit him if they see potential in the player. Thats not much different than before

But when you form a team what if your lil buddy is tier 4 and you are tier two, does that mean you get ONLY tier 3 players all day long, or do make your lil buddy suffer and get some 2s or even 1s to offset you?

[Void Angel]

Yokaiko, on 18 August 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Man what a bunch of snowflakes

"There may be bad discrimination" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Actually, I said there'd be a bunch of insufferable idiots.

Thank you.

Edited by Void Angel, 18 August 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[Lugh]

Yokaiko, on 18 August 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Man what a bunch of snowflakes

"There may be bad discrimination" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[mark v92]

Lugh, on 18 August 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

But when you form a team what if your lil buddy is tier 4 and you are tier two, does that mean you get ONLY tier 3 players all day long, or do make your lil buddy suffer and get some 2s or even 1s to offset you?

well yeah if your grouped up like that. Tier 1/2 doesnt mean those players will hate on you. It might happen once yes but thats the same as we had when you would drop in a high elo group and get some low elo players with you on the team. The high elo will perform better. But did they shame on the low elo guys? Not much that ive encountered. High elo maybe on their own ts but thats harmless

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Obadiah333, on 18 August 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

#1 Forum discussions will no longer be ruled by logical conclusions, facts and insight, but will be reduced to a "higher tier guys are right, everyone else is wrong" kinda derpfest.

#2 Recruiting will be run by elitists, and no house/faction/clan is going to want to recruit anyone below tier 1 ranking. Honestly, how many factions are going to be out there looking for "tier 4 players only." The answer is NONE. This will exlude a lot of players and make them not want to play the game or join a house/clan.

#3 New player experience will be worse off, and public shaming and outright rudeness will skyrocket. Do you think new players need any more difficulties in this game than they have now? If we wan't more people to play this game and grow the community, we need to make it easier (and nicer), otherwise this game will be as populous as the CW que is currently.

#1 Forum discussions are not currently ruled by logic, facts or insight. When people spam this section with multiple threads claiming arctic cheetahs are overpowered, unstoppable, killing machines that need nerfing. And they refuse to provide screenshots, video clips or other evidence to support these claims. That isn't logical, factual nor insightfu. Those types of emotional appeals based posts are the typical standard here. Posters here typically say a million things in this section without ever making any attempt to substantiate or provide evidence for anything they say. They randomly say locusts, pretty baby, awesomes, trebuchets, spiders, mist lynx's are DOA. They randomly say timberwolves, arctic cheetahs and other mechs are OP. These typical DOA/OP discussions are never logical, factual or insightful because no one ever has the ELO data to substantiate whether any of the things they're saying is true.

I would say if you support logic and facts you should support publicly available tier listings. The data that would provide would make DOA/OP and other discussions more factual and provide more metrics and stats for those discussions. The fact that you support the opposite of what would make discussions here more rational could be considered evidence that you are against intelligent and reasonable discussions being had on this forum, and you oppose people having the information they need to be accurate on topics like DOA/OP/pinpoint/ghost heat and other common themes.

#2 There are plenty of casual clans in this game who are centered more around being social than competitive. That aspect of circumstances isn't likely to change overnight on public ELO metrics as not everyone is interested in or cares about being a competitive gamer. Competitive gamers represent only a tiny fraction of this game's demographics. Most people play the game just to play the game and have fun with their friends. That's not going to change because of some silly numbers -- despite what you might think.

#3 Shaming of new players could skyrocket, or it could make it easier for experienced players to identify and help new players. There's no real reason to assume the negative outcome is more probable than the positive one. Assuming a negative outcome is a form of cherry picking where you select the outcome you personally like the most, without bothering to substantiate your claims with evidence. So you see by saying that new player shaming will skyrocket your arguing on the same level as those who claim "arctic cheetaths are op". You're making emotional and subjective judgements that are wholly arbitrary and non-falsifiable in the form of an appeal to consequentialism. Appeals to consequentialism are not logical, nor are they a form of reason.

[Yokaiko]

Or like I said snowflakes.

[Aresye]

Obadiah333, on 18 August 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Recruiting will be run by elitists, and no house/faction/clan is going to want to recruit anyone below tier 1 ranking. Honestly, how many factions are going to be out there looking for "tier 4 players only." The answer is NONE. This will exlude a lot of players and make them not want to play the game or join a house/clan.

I'm going to call complete BS on this statement.

There's different units and groups out there. Lore based units like CWI are more about the experience, and we recruit players of all skill levels. The only thing that would change with a public tier list is we'd have to edit out recruitment post saying that, "We accept players from all Tiers 1-5."

The only type of unit that would possibly take advantage of a Tier list are the competitive groups, and being an exclusive, competitive oriented unit, they have absolutely every right to discriminate based on a player's tier listing. If a Tier 5 player wants to join SJR, it's probably not going to happen.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah, i think public tiers is up for debate, but I don't see any reason why we couldn't have access to our own PSR level Tier, it could be right there on the stats page, just to track how you are doing.

Hell, might help quell some of the egos around here..

[Yokaiko]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 August 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

Yeah, i think public tiers is up for debate, but I don't see any reason why we couldn't have access to our own PSR level Tier, it could be right there on the stats page, just to track how you are doing.

Hell, might help quell some of the egos around here..

Unlikely, remember when they made the solo queue? It was still GROUPS PUG STOMPS.....even though you basically couldn't.

Anything but face that they aren't as good as they think they are.

[Aresye]

Yokaiko, on 18 August 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Unlikely, remember when they made the solo queue? It was still GROUPS PUG STOMPS.....even though you basically couldn't.

No, that was just Mudhut.

[LordKnightFandragon]

So how do we know what tier we are?

[Kjudoon]

Kira_Onime, on 18 August 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

So you,re telling me "Player skill = player game knowledge".

It sure isn't Pavlovian Twitch.