377 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Vlad Ward, on 22 August 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

Thankfully, perceptions are malleable.

Perceptions are malleable. The senses as Ebeneezer Scrooge pointed out can be upset by anything. A piece of beef, a blot of mustard, an under-done potato. There is more of gravy to you than there is grave.... if I may paraphrase.

But also, another pop culture reference is the Gail Wynand the media titan's fight to save architect Howard Roark against the master manipulator Ellsworth Toohey in "The Fountainhead" in the court of public opinion. Opinions in the right place can shape cultures. The mob can only be guided so far as they desire to be guided. When you decide to disobey the mob, they will turn on you and consume you. If you really want to read an interesting treatise on the motivations of what drives the truly powerful, read that book. It is a very hard read though, so don't think you're getting a Robert B. Parker or David Weber novel. Ellsworth Toohey's monologue on his master plan is truly terrifying and chillingly evil on how to manipulate the hearts of man. Even more interesting is when all is said and done and the dust clears on this battle of wills, nothing is still quite as it seems. Those who think they won, had not but rather lost all. Those who lost all, continue on better than before. Fiction to be sure, but the lessons and examples are still valid.

We are all prisoners of our own perception of the world and bias on what it means to us. You cannot casually assume this is easily malleable for it is like quicksilver with a will of it's own. You can only do so much before it has a mind of it's own.

And that includes this game once you get out of the ivory tower's clouds and fancy phraseology.

You can't make the mob do what it does not want, or suffer for your benefit without making them think they are gaining something of value in return. Your one queue solution gives them nothing in return for what you take away: Their freedom of choice.

Yokaiko, on 22 August 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

This post is so wonderfully ironic....

Thou hast forgotten thine image in the same mirror already.

I'll give you a wonderful pair of phrases I have learned over the years:

Boncher's Maxim - Everyone's a hypocrite. After that it is a question of subject and scale.
Boncher's Corellary - Show me a man who says they're not a hypocrite and I will show you a liar.

[Yokaiko]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Thou hast forgotten thine image in the same mirror already.

I'll give you a wonderful pair of phrases I have learned over the years:

Boncher's Maxim - Everyone's a hypocrite. After that it is a question of subject and scale.
Boncher's Corellary - Show me a man who says they're not a hypocrite and I will show you a liar.

So in the absence of an actual argument you are going to quote more philosophy

[Kjudoon]

Yokaiko, on 22 August 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

So in the absence of an actual argument you are going to quote more philosophy

and with that, you've hit my 'waste of time' limit. I'm sorry, you're beyond this provider's ability or desire to cater to you. You may scream "Victory is mine!" and do whatever you want. I won't see it.

Edited by Kjudoon, 22 August 2015 - 04:35 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

and with that, you've hit my 'waste of time' limit. I'm sorry, you're beyond this provider's ability or desire to cater to you. You may scream "Victory is mine!" and do whatever you want. I won't see it.

Good then go away.

[Kjudoon]

Triordinant, on 22 August 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

Just because you say the Moon is made of Swiss cheese doesn't mean it is. Thankfully, in a customer-driven game the majority decides what is and what isn't. Not you.

Technically it's whomever pays the bills decides. Refuse to satisfy the customer and the bills don't get paid. Much like politicians that way.

[Kjudoon]

Vlad Ward, on 22 August 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Yeah, CW held units' attention for about 2 weeks until the bad ones got sick of losing to the good ones. Repeat ad infinitum until the only people left are either diehard fans, hardcore roleplayers, and the good units that people disconnect to avoid fighting against. That's CW today.

No one likes losing against stronger players. It's human nature. That's the whole point behind a skill-weighted matchmaker. Equivalent skill is more important than the size of your group for a good match in my eyes.

PGI thought the same formula that kept people coming back to the group queue would hold true for CW, not realizing that people want more from something called COMMUNITY warfare.

They failed to deliver on several points (except maps which... well... is a separate disaster.)

Edited by Kjudoon, 22 August 2015 - 04:41 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

not realizing that people want more from something called COMMUNITY warfare.

I just want the C-bills to match the pub queue, specially for the time involved, its literally my only issue with CW. But then, because PGI, I didn't have very high hopes to start with there.

[Kjudoon]

Triordinant, on 22 August 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

It's the lesser of two evils compared to forcing soloists to play with groups if they don't want to, though.

Give me a solid, infinitely repeatable or continually growing content, co-op PvE experience and you'll pretty much never see me play PvP again.

I'll be happy. PvP fans will be happy.

Win/Win.

[Mawai]

Ummm ... no.

Teamwork in MWO is still far more powerful than the individual mechs that players use. The 3/3/3/3 target for mech class and trying to even out PSR tend to make matches more even but many matches in the solo queue turn into stomps not due to matchmaker failure but due to spontaneous team work between members on one side leading to focused fire and quick elimintation of opposing mechs until one side has a significant advantage and it snowballs from there.

Adding groups back into the solo queue, of any size (except possibly 2), will increase coordination and thus the likelihood of unbalanced matches. Most matches I have had with the new matchmaker seem to end 12:0-3 ... out of my limited sampling of games there have been more stomps with the new ranking scheme but PGI will have the stats to tell if they would actually share (though they are unlikely to share if analysis shows that the new scheme is an overall failure).

Here is a question ... in the group queue, do you find stomps more or less common than the solo queue? If thery are more common, how can adding solo players to the mix make the games any more balanced?

So, no, I would say keep the queues split.

[Yokaiko]

Mawai, on 22 August 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

Ummm ... no.

Teamwork in MWO is still far more powerful than the individual mechs that players use. The 3/3/3/3 target for mech class and trying to even out PSR tend to make matches more even but many matches in the solo queue turn into stomps not due to matchmaker failure but due to spontaneous team work between members on one side leading to focused fire and quick elimintation of opposing mechs until one side has a significant advantage and it snowballs from there.

Adding groups back into the solo queue, of any size (except possibly 2), will increase coordination and thus the likelihood of unbalanced matches. Most matches I have had with the new matchmaker seem to end 12:0-3 ... out of my limited sampling of games there have been more stomps with the new ranking scheme but PGI will have the stats to tell if they would actually share (though they are unlikely to share if analysis shows that the new scheme is an overall failure).

Here is a question ... in the group queue, do you find stomps more or less common than the solo queue? If thery are more common, how can adding solo players to the mix make the games any more balanced?

So, no, I would say keep the queues split.

Its the same, as far as I can tell, there are still wildly disparate scores in both queues, that is just impression though, I haven't been tracking anything.

The "close game" thing is mostly a myth anyway. Going back to 8 v 8 games, the standard match basically revolved around your lights, whoever won the light battle won the game. Since sniping and poptarting aren't in my nature I was either one of the lights, or a D-DC.

As skill levels go up losing as much as a single mech becomes a pretty big advantage because people know to look for the guy caught out, or a light gets into your assaults and the other side steam rolls the the lighter mechs. PSR isn't a cure for crap tactics, i.e the hiding under the caldera on Caustic with 4+ LRM mechs on the otherside.

These are how stomps happen.

[Mawai]

Yokaiko, on 22 August 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

No its a boogie man, period.

If there are groups...plural...and solos present you are going to get both friendly AND hostile teams in a game. That means that there is no net advantage, its just like the solo queue.

It always was.

Back from the unregulated, 8 man days, I would drop solo and wonder what the hell the hell the "WE ARE GETTING PUG STOMPED" crowd was whining about, because that pack of screaming hamsters either had the worst luck EVER or they were blaming every loss on a team whether or not there was a team present or not.

.....and they KEPT IT UP for about 6 months after the solo queue became part of the game.

Not entirely true.

In solos you can select folks with equivalent skill assuming the Elo/PSR system works. These players enter a match with no significant coordination or team work advantage. The side which spontaneously develops any sort of teamwork is far more likely to win the match.

This is not true for groups ..
- groups can be casual, competitive or somewhere in between
- groups sizes can vary from 2 to 12
- groups can choose complementary mechs so they can work together more effectively

Unless the matchmaker was constrained to put identical size groups with identical composition on opposing teams that would limit the imbalance to the casual/competitive issue. However, the matchmaker will likely not be constrained that way so that it can actually get groups into games quicklu enough. You will get games with 12 man groups against 12 solos or 9 man group against a 5 man with solos filling the remaining spots. The 9 man group has a significant advantage.

In general, adding groups to the solo queue will adversely affect the play experience of solo players by increasing the likelihood of unbalanced matches due to the varying levels of group size and coordination.

If you decide to only put groups against groups you end up with the current group/solo queue split.

[Yokaiko]

Mawai, on 22 August 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

In general, adding groups to the solo queue will adversely affect the play experience of solo players by increasing the likelihood of unbalanced matches due to the varying levels of group size and coordination.

I say that is pretty much a myth, you have the same disparity no matter the teams, grouped or ungrouped.

Plus after running in the group queue most of Friday US prime (Saturday morning for me) I never saw a twelve man, in fact I don't remember seeing anything bigger than an 8 spot, and we crushed them. We were running three or four during that period.

[cSand]

I always have been and still am of the opinion that max group size should be 8 except in CW, and solo players should be able to opt into the group queu if they want

Edited by cSand, 22 August 2015 - 06:02 AM.

[Chados]

I think it's a bad idea to mix solo queue and group queue. All that would do is ensure stomps all the time, every time, for solo players not in an organized unit. That's anti-fun for anyone not part of a unit. I haven't joined one yet because I'm too casual a player for most units, I mostly pack LRMs and teams hate LRM players, and I'm still getting to where I can contribute to their efforts anyway.

Group queue's issues could be fixed by allowing 4v4 or 8v8 matches in group queue, while leaving the 12v12 solo queue alone.

This said, I've been in group queue twice, once with Leone and once with the 9th Sword, and both were fun times. Most of the group queue regulars are good folks, and I'd see nothing wrong with an opt-in for solo players who want to run that experience. Only the good players would do it and it would help the units find players they want to recruit.

Edited by Chados, 22 August 2015 - 06:21 AM.

[Idealsuspect]

Rahul Roy, on 21 August 2015 - 11:17 PM, said:

Who would benefit from removing group queue?

The topic creator ^^ well i hope for him he was trolling

re-merge solo and and group queue again ?
Well check many CW pugs dont stay more than a week then leave CW for a year becoze too many rollstomps they can't handle with .. ( maybe next CW event will make them come back for few days ) and you want this for regulars matchs ...? great great fasle good idea

[cSand]

Considering that while not all solo players are new, but almost all new players are in the solo queue at some point, allowing the new players to go up against 12 man tryhard troll festival is a great way to boost the customer base of other games

Although I do think 2 mans should be let into the group queue you can't have your cake and eat it too so I say.. keep it solo.

[Jabilo]

No thanks.

[sycocys]

For me personally I'm fine with it and don't care if the queues are separated at all. When we had one queue the matches tended to be more exciting because everyone attempted to work together because we had no idea what or who was on the other side.

That's my feelings on it, but I can tell you it would never work with the player base that this game has pulled since ejecting most of its founders. What I could see is teams of 2 at the most being allowed to fill either solo or group queue at random though. That way we could at least have limited training runs and friends could have more casual matches at least half the time.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

no; (8-10 or) 12 mans dont get to farm solo pugs with their small groups. Shits bad enough in the group queue dont make it worse

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 21 August 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

But in the CW queue, I see groups roll over teams of all solos.

Theres a reason ppl arent playing CW... and do this for the solo/group queue and youll see CW numbers there as well

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 22 August 2015 - 07:15 AM.