46 replies to this topic

[Ragnahawk]

5 Arctic Cheetahs and 1 Jenner. This is fair. This is totally fair. So out of all these mechs. Which mech chassis had the highest average???

I think their PSR Rating rose so much that they all ended up in the same match.

Metamechs.com Arctic Cheetah:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...115b4702caf942c
Quirks:

Copied from: http://snafets.de/mwo/clan_quirks.htm
Additional Structure Left Arm+8
Additional Structure Left Torso+7
Additional Structure Right Arm+8
Additional Structure Left Leg+15
Additional Structure Right Leg+15
Energy Weapon Heat Generation-5%
Pulse Laser Heat Generation-5%
ER-Laser Duration-2.5%
Laser Duration-2.5%
Acceleration10%
Deceleration10%
Torso Yaw Speed4%

This C variant is a special preorder variant. It holds a lot of duration from what I see.

Edited by F8Sealed, 24 August 2015 - 09:30 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Why you think they need to be fixed?

Your team had more tonnage but did worse, nothing to talk about. Weight class balance is not working for group queue.

[Ironwithin]

Group queue, there is nothing else to say.

[Ragnahawk]

Let me just add: This would be a completely different discussion is this mech was available to everyone. I think its time all clan mechs go half speed and gain heat gen when they lose a torso.

Edited by F8Sealed, 24 August 2015 - 09:08 PM.

[Tesunie]

F8Sealed, on 24 August 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

Let me just add: This would be a completely different discussion is this mech was available to everyone. I think its time all clan mechs go half speed and gain heat gen when they lose a torso.

They already produce heat (reduced heat dissipation).

I think a 50% reduction to speed would be too extreme. Though some reduction to speed may be appropriate, I do not know how much would be the sweet spot.



As far as OP goes, that image told me a lot. It was a team match, and it appears as though the larger team was on the side that lost. This leads me to believe, by looking at the players damage and match scores, that the larger premade ignored the small lance group they had, and then got focused fired to death by the other side's premades working together. If you observe, the lone lance of mixed factions/unit tags did rather well, all things considered. (If I'm right.)

Wouldn't blame the Arctic Cheetah here. It's just a good preforming mech is all. It's also the new mech still.

[Ragnahawk]

Tesunie, on 24 August 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

They already produce heat (reduced heat dissipation).

I think a 50% reduction to speed would be too extreme. Though some reduction to speed may be appropriate, I do not know how much would be the sweet spot.



As far as OP goes, that image told me a lot. It was a team match, and it appears as though the larger team was on the side that lost. This leads me to believe, by looking at the players damage and match scores, that the larger premade ignored the small lance group they had, and then got focused fired to death by the other side's premades working together. If you observe, the lone lance of mixed factions/unit tags did rather well, all things considered. (If I'm right.)

Wouldn't blame the Arctic Cheetah here. It's just a good preforming mech is all. It's also the new mech still.

Can't be streaked by streak boats do to ecm. Can't be caught in the open due to 6 jumpjets and a crapton of speed. Can't be out gunned as a light do to highest light firepower. Can't react to cheater because nobody knows where the hell it is because ecm. If you put 5 of them in a single match, even with the best pilots, even with 228 they will still lose. I don't care if you slap 288, 4 20, MS, and all the best preforming pilots from top tournament teams. Your not winning. Your argument's basis is founded on belief that they were ignored. How can you react to something that can't be targeted? Let me just add that I unloaded into the horde, didn't even slightly hinder their extreme power.

(forgive me I'm tired and angry. I'm stressed IRL too, but this crap....)

Edited by F8Sealed, 24 August 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[Deitz]

I think it will take awhile for everyone's PSR to level out. So I'd expect some real crappy matches until it's sorted out and enough data is gathered.

AS for the Arctic Cheetah, I really think the hit boxes need adjustment. Right now the hardest mech to kill is the Arctic Cheetah, while in my opinion it should be the Atlas, Direwolf, or Warhawk, or a well piloted medium. I remember we went through this before with the Mad Dog. We made a observation and PGI corrected it.

[Ragnahawk]

Deitz, on 24 August 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

I think it will take awhile for everyone's PSR to level out. So I'd expect some real crappy matches until it's sorted out and enough data is gathered.

AS for the Arctic Cheetah, I really think the hit boxes need adjustment. Right now the hardest mech to kill is the Arctic Cheetah, while in my opinion it should be the Atlas, Direwolf, or Warhawk, or a well piloted medium. I remember we went through this before with the Mad Dog. We made a observation and PGI corrected it.

If this PSR system is based off our current stats, then I've been here so long that nothing could put a dent into it. It could be 2 years of bad games before I move down.

[Tesunie]

F8Sealed, on 24 August 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

Can't be streaked by streak boats do to ecm. Can't be caught in the open due to 6 jumpjets and a crapton of speed. Can't be out gunned as a light do to highest light firepower. Can't react to cheater because nobody knows where the hell it is because ecm. If you put 5 of them in a single match, even with the best pilots, even with 228 they will still lose. I don't care if you slap 288, 4 20, MS, and all the best preforming pilots from top tournament teams. Your not winning. Your argument's basis is founded on the fact that they could easily overwhelm us due to firepower and speed. Let me just add that I unloaded into the horde, didn't even slightly hinder their extreme power.

can be hit by SSRMs. Bring BAP. Unless they are swarming you, your BAP will disable their ECM. (Then again, ECM I feel needs adjustments, but that's a different topic.)

Firestarter and Spider (to name two specific mechs) are faster than the Cheetah, and can take as many jump jets if they choose to.

Carries about the same firepower as a Firestarter. Less than an Adder though. And it's only 5 tons lighter than a Firestarter.

Sounds more like an ECM issue than a specific Mech Chassis issue. Also, Thermal vision can spot mechs through ECM (but hinders visuals of terrain).

They suffer from the same basic effects as any other light does: Fast, nimble, hard to hit. (Maybe with a tiny lag shield sometimes.)

I die all the time, even with low match scores, in my Cheetah. To be perfectly honest, I find it runs about as well as my Jenner does, with a tiny edge from the ECM (which talking about ECM is a completely different thing from a mech that carries the gear).

The Cheetah is a good mech. It's right up there with the Firestarter and Jenner. At 30 tons, it isn't much of a surprise. Now, if you feel there is something wrong with the hitboxes, being more specific might be better here. is it not taking damage, like the Spider use to when hit in the belly button area? (Or like a Jenner, if you hit the arm connection joint, after the arm was blown off? Go ahead and test it. There is a hole where no damage applies if you blow off the Jenner's arm and then shoot from the side where the arm connects.) Or does it just seem to shift damage well?

Deitz, on 24 August 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

I think it will take awhile for everyone's PSR to level out. So I'd expect some real crappy matches until it's sorted out and enough data is gathered.

AS for the Arctic Cheetah, I really think the hit boxes need adjustment. Right now the hardest mech to kill is the Arctic Cheetah, while in my opinion it should be the Atlas, Direwolf, or Warhawk, or a well piloted medium. I remember we went through this before with the Mad Dog. We made a observation and PGI corrected it.

The Mad Dog I don't believe ever had that issue. If anything, it's issue is that it's all side torsos, so it tends to die with a fully armored CT, but no side torsos. Are you thinking of the Spider? It use to have a tiny hole in it's CT that would absorb damage and not apply it. (And then seemingly shift that damage to the nearest Jenner's CT. )

F8Sealed, on 24 August 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

If this PSR system is based off our current stats, then I've been here so long that nothing could put a dent into it. It could be 2 years of bad games before I move down.

Not so. Your PSR was based after your match score ratings (with some objectives that are favored more over others) from I think January? I believe Russ said it would take a few weeks to a few months for everyone to level out properly into their PSRs.

Keep playing, and you'll get to what your PSR should be sooner.

[Seelenlos]

What you assume that they ignored the ACH is realy a "BELIEVE"!

You all ignore that the only other AHC was in blue team getting a kill.

I see at a glance that the AHCs (both side) overpowered the whole match.

The crab killed the orion and the Jenner must have took out another of the red AHCs' before the other AHCs got him.

This interpretation is only a statistcal one by numbers....

I saw one AHC shut down survived a crab shooting with 2x AC/20 at it...

AHC msut be nerfed, -7% / Hitbox / what ever.

Edited by Seelenlos, 25 August 2015 - 02:36 AM.

[Deitz]

Tesunie, I've seen all types of hit boxes issues since the beginning of open beta. Spiders, Commandos, King Crabs, and the most recent one, (off the top of my head) was the center torso of the Mad dog. Even the Firestarters were and issue when first released.

How do you kill a light? 9 out of 10 times you'll find the easiest way to do this is leg it. Take out the legs and the light mech loses. Unfortunately the leg hit boxes for the Arctic Cheetah fail to register hits correctly. In order to hit the leg you have to aim from the hip down to about the middle of the thigh. Because of hit boxes orientation, aiming to high on the thigh will result in spreading damage through out the CT areas. So yes in my opinion the leg hit boxes need adjustment.

As for firepower the I'm going to compare the top tier competitive light mech currently listed at metamech.com The FS9-S and the ACH-C. The FS9-A should be a real comparison but has fallen out of favor with the competitive community due to heat issues. Which, case in point, the the Arctic Cheetah currently doesn't have. If you only look at the FS9-S and the ACH-C, you'll see that the ACH-C has 6 damage points on the FS9-S. This isn't that big of a deal. What is the deal breaker is the maintainable DPS, or (Damage per second.) FS9-S has a DPS of 3.00, while the ACH-C has 4.20. This makes the ACH-C just as devastating as the old FS9-A build, but without heat issues, and the smaller hit boxes of the legs. So yes the ACH-C is harder to kill and packs one hell of a punch.

The best way the community can deal with the Arctic Cheater is to gang up on it and make it a priority target. Get it off the battle field as soon as it's detected, and your team stands a chance. However if you drop against 4 of them... LoL! Best of luck.

[Tesunie]

Deitz, on 25 August 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

Tesunie, I've seen all types of hit boxes issues since the beginning of open beta. Spiders, Commandos, King Crabs, and the most recent one, (off the top of my head) was the center torso of the Mad dog. Even the Firestarters were and issue when first released.

How do you kill a light? 9 out of 10 times you'll find the easiest way to do this is leg it. Take out the legs and the light mech loses. Unfortunately the leg hit boxes for the Arctic Cheetah fail to register hits correctly. In order to hit the leg you have to aim from the hip down to about the middle of the thigh. Because of hit boxes orientation, aiming to high on the thigh will result in spreading damage through out the CT areas. So yes in my opinion the leg hit boxes need adjustment.

As for firepower the I'm going to compare the top tier competitive light mech currently listed at metamech.com The FS9-S and the ACH-C. The FS9-A should be a real comparison but has fallen out of favor with the competitive community due to heat issues. Which, case in point, the the Arctic Cheetah currently doesn't have. If you only look at the FS9-S and the ACH-C, you'll see that the ACH-C has 6 damage points on the FS9-S. This isn't that big of a deal. What is the deal breaker is the maintainable DPS, or (Damage per second.) FS9-S has a DPS of 3.00, while the ACH-C has 4.20. This makes the ACH-C just as devastating as the old FS9-A build, but without heat issues, and the smaller hit boxes of the legs. So yes the ACH-C is harder to kill and packs one hell of a punch.

The best way the community can deal with the Arctic Cheater is to gang up on it and make it a priority target. Get it off the battle field as soon as it's detected, and your team stands a chance. However if you drop against 4 of them... LoL! Best of luck.

I want to say, far more constructive, with actual points that could be addressed. In comparison to a lot of "Mech op, Please nerf" posts I see. I do like to read feedback posts like this, and I just want to say that it's appreciated to have actual reasons and analysis when making points about a mech.

Firestarter I believe had a tiny correction done to it, but I don't believe there was any broken hit boxes. I will say, I didn't hear about any problems with the Vulture/Mad Dog, but it wouldn't be past my belief if it did have an issue. I do know that the (L) King Crab had a spot where, if it was bending over and someone shot a spot on the back, it would instantly kill the mech. So, I wont deny the possibility of any hit box issues, even if I don't see it myself personally at this time.

Hum. I can't say I've seen any issue with the leg hit boxes of the Cheetah, but I also will say I've noticed I lose a side torso before a leg most times. So, it's fairly possible. This is why I like posts such as yours. It lets me assess my own performance, in relation to what you've stated. I also tend to lose arms rather easily in the mech, which is also where most of it's weapons are. If they correct the leg hit boxes, I just hope they don't give them invisible thunder thighs, like the Raven (or like the Spiders overly inflated hit boxed along it's back and shoulders).

I always find that my damage output is equal to my Jenner with my Cheetah. Then again, I also admit I don't play mine like everyone else. I like to experiment with my mechs, and I found the Meta Cheetah to run hotter than I prefer. But, I wont deny that it can pack a punch. Maybe it should have a laser duration nerf? Something small to just even out it's DPS? Though, that would also help heat dissipation as well then. And I'm sure we'd hear the whine strong if it was done. (Clan mechs are being nerfed into the ground again! Oh nos! Panic!)

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it needs to be a priority target to be eliminated. My experience seems to tell me it's just a strong mech. I've not (yet) noticed any difficulty in killing it compared to any other light mech. Then again, I still have SRMs that can hit a target, and seem to do massively less damage than it should. (It looks and feels like only one SRM (2 points of damage) is being applied when I shoot my two SRM4s in my Thor/Summoner. Even if all SRMs visually hit their target.) So, do recall that hit registration does still have some issues.

Edited by Tesunie, 25 August 2015 - 06:03 AM.

[Luscious Dan]

IMO it's not the hit boxes, but the leg animation that might be causing some difficulty legging the Cheetah. Run around in 3rd person and you can see how derpy it looks, as the legs swing out super far forward and back. If its legs moved faster but in a more realistic stride, they might not spend so much time outside the shooter's cross hairs.

[Tesunie]

Luscious Dan, on 25 August 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

IMO it's not the hit boxes, but the leg animation that might be causing some difficulty legging the Cheetah. Run around in 3rd person and you can see how derpy it looks, as the legs swing out super far forward and back. If its legs moved faster but in a more realistic stride, they might not spend so much time outside the shooter's cross hairs.

I was thinking this as a possibility too. I can't say I've watch my Cheetah's legs as they moved, but I would imagine the movement would make hitting beneath the knees difficult, at best.

[Luscious Dan]

Tesunie, on 25 August 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

I was thinking this as a possibility too. I can't say I've watch my Cheetah's legs as they moved, but I would imagine the movement would make hitting beneath the knees difficult, at best.

Checking out the animations was one of the first things I did after seeing the preview vids. Surprisingly odd animation despite being a standard humanoid mech.

[Ragnahawk]

Seelenlos, on 25 August 2015 - 02:34 AM, said:

What you assume that they ignored the ACH is realy a "BELIEVE"!

You all ignore that the only other AHC was in blue team getting a kill.

I see at a glance that the AHCs (both side) overpowered the whole match.

The crab killed the orion and the Jenner must have took out another of the red AHCs' before the other AHCs got him.

This interpretation is only a statistcal one by numbers....

I saw one AHC shut down survived a crab shooting with 2x AC/20 at it...

AHC msut be nerfed, -7% / Hitbox / what ever.

Well that CT is a really small target. It could have hit the side torso. If you calculate the average damage of all the arctic cheetahs on this match you'll find that they are effectively mini dire whales. I could take my atlas, and watch an arctic cheetah run directly at me, soak up all my damage and just aim for my back. The walking animation is so derpy and fast and the legs are so short and tiny that I can probably hit it with one SRM6 volley and miss all the other srms. At that point the arctic cheater will generally take flight at you so you cannot hit it right where you want it. The arctic direwhale.

[Tesunie]

Luscious Dan, on 25 August 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Checking out the animations was one of the first things I did after seeing the preview vids. Surprisingly odd animation despite being a standard humanoid mech.

It's running in a similar manner as the Jenner, which is based after a "long strider' runner. It runs with long loomping leg strokes, much like a human running for just speed. However, the animations doesn't seem to fit the actual speed the mech appears to be moving, giving it a stranger looking animation.

I think the animations are alright, but it just doesn't match it's land speed. So it looks like it's got a bit of treadmill running/moonwalking appearance going on.

[Skarlock]

F8Sealed, on 24 August 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

Can't be streaked by streak boats do to ecm. Can't be caught in the open due to 6 jumpjets and a crapton of speed. Can't be out gunned as a light do to highest light firepower. Can't react to cheater because nobody knows where the hell it is because ecm. If you put 5 of them in a single match, even with the best pilots, even with 228 they will still lose. I don't care if you slap 288, 4 20, MS, and all the best preforming pilots from top tournament teams. Your not winning. Your argument's basis is founded on belief that they were ignored. How can you react to something that can't be targeted? Let me just add that I unloaded into the horde, didn't even slightly hinder their extreme power.

(forgive me I'm tired and angry. I'm stressed IRL too, but this crap....)

Lot of things wrong with your arguments.

1. Can't be streaked by streak boats do to ecm.

Can be locked on with UAV and can also be locked on with TAG + CAP or TAG + BAP. Yes, a large pack of cheetahs can negate a streak boat at close range, but that's a pack, not a single cheetah. 3 hellbringers or atlas ddc could easily do the same thing. The moral of the story should be don't rely on streak boats to do much, which they already don't vs anything that isn't a light.

2. Can't be caught in the open due to 6 jumpjets and a crapton of speed.

Good pilots and good positioning prevent a mech from being caught in the open. Speed at JJs help but it's pilot skill that's important not just the mech. If that's your argument then it also applies to any light.

3. Can't be out gunned as a light do to highest light firepower.

Nope, you can do a firestarter with 6 mpl to match it or 7 mpl to surpass it, but you give up some speed. FS-9S would also run with better damage to heat efficiency and have better range thanks to quirks.

4. Can't react to cheater because nobody knows where the hell it is because ecm.

Cheetah max damage range is 186 with small pulses and no TC. Seismic sensor range is 250m I believe, so take seismo...

5. If you put 5 of them in a single match, even with the best pilots, even with 228 they will still lose.

I wouldn't speak for comp teams though, I would ask them what they think because I don't like to put words in other teams mouths.

6. How can you react to something that can't be targeted?

Seismic sensors, communication letting your teammates know where they are, and using your eyes to spot the cheetah.

[Skarlock]

Luscious Dan, on 25 August 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Checking out the animations was one of the first things I did after seeing the preview vids. Surprisingly odd animation despite being a standard humanoid mech.

What I would encourage people to do is aim for the hip. Don't aim for the mechs lower legs, they move way too much in most circumstances to hit reliably. You can hit just slightly below the hip actuator and get reliable leg hits that way. This really applies to pretty much any light. Also, definitely go for cheetah legs if possible. Cheetah legs are tougher than you would expect getting a massive 15 structure bonus, but they aren't that much tougher armor + structure wise than a firestarter leg. You leg the cheetah and it it's all but dead. Just opening up a cheetahs leg, unless he's suicidal, he'll play much more timid. While the cheetah is alive after side torso destruction, if you side torso it, you've also cut out half its firepower, and it's much, much less of a threat. Even an arm reduces its guns by 1/3, but try to focus the legs when possible.

Edit : Correction on side torso structure bonus, the ACH prime ECM pod does get some structure bonus.

Edited by Skarlock, 25 August 2015 - 11:07 AM.

[Skarlock]

F8Sealed, on 25 August 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Well that CT is a really small target. It could have hit the side torso. If you calculate the average damage of all the arctic cheetahs on this match you'll find that they are effectively mini dire whales. I could take my atlas, and watch an arctic cheetah run directly at me, soak up all my damage and just aim for my back. The walking animation is so derpy and fast and the legs are so short and tiny that I can probably hit it with one SRM6 volley and miss all the other srms. At that point the arctic cheater will generally take flight at you so you cannot hit it right where you want it. The arctic direwhale.

My best dire wolf has 92 matches I have played in it. I average about 552 damage per game, and a 1.48 kill average per game, win ratio about 1.57. k/d ratio is 2.78.

My cheetah has exactly 200 matches, does 453 damage per game, 1.68 kill average, win ratio 1.83, k/d ratio 2.99.

Keep in mind, this is purely solo queue stats. I don't play group queue at all.

Both mechs focus on accurate damage (dire whale is 2 gauss 2 lpl 4 er med) but my cheetah has more kill potential for running down wounded mechs, and gets more kills, yet my dire cracks a lot more armor. Dire is less maneuverable and less survivable being a big slow target but contributes more to a battle offensively. Cheetah on the other hand gets more wins because I can focus on the more important targets much more easily.

As far as my personal stats are concerned they feel pretty balanced to be honest, both are fairly effective. That being said, there is a huge rebalance of the entire game on the horizon, so we have no idea where the cheetah and dire will end up afterwards.