220 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

Yokaiko, on 10 September 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

LRM didn't get upped damage at one point they were 2.2 damage a round, missile boats were clocking ridiculous damage, and it went downhill from there.

In fact: they did.

Quote

LRMs

- Speed 120 (up from 100)
- Damage 0.9 (up from 0.7)

Even buffed the AMS which is still underperforming in my opinion

Quote

AMS

- Damage per bullet 3.5 (up from 2.0)

http://mwomercs.com/...23-21-may-2013/

And later PGI upped the speed again (Unfortunately i cant find the patch notes of which and what value they upped, but it was the speed)

Which PGI replied upon the complaints:

Quote

Just to let you all know that I've been monitoring the LRM change and their performance on the battlefield. Yes... they are a tad fast... but far from "LRMageddon". Next patch the speed will be reduced by 15m/s. I.e. net change will be from 120 to 160 (instead of 175). I'm also reducing the amount of screenshake caused by LRM explosions slightly. (0.35 instead of 0.4)

It was important to watch the speed impact in gameplay for at least a week to see the actual change in overall gameplay. As you may or may not know, I do have the ability to remotely monitor specific and random games being played. I spent a large portion of my time last week monitoring gameplay of players of all Elo ranges. There were some interesting finds to say the least in terms of how players adapted to the speed change.

http://mwomercs.com/...pdate-march-24/

I think it's legit to put them back again. But with a big IF: some mechanic to make boating more skillfull without penalizing too much.

Edited by Sarlic, 10 September 2015 - 02:18 AM.

[Yokaiko]

yeah that was 2.0

I'm telling you when I started LRM drifted down from 2.2, stayed at 1.8 for a while before getting nerfed into the floor.

[ColourfulConfetti]

1. Srms are awesome, don't know what game your playing but they wreck face if you actually know how to use them. I like the current state of srms right now, any more buffs would make them THE ultimate brawling weapon. Tbh, I actually wouldn't mind srms being the meta for brawlers. Could be pretty interesting.

2. Lrms are in fact in a bad place right now and anybody who brings lrms for their team is an utter waste of tonnage. Lrms work on terrible players and only terrible players. Honestly, garbage autoaim weapons don't deserve to be in a remotely good position, never mind competitive. You'd honestly have to buff lrms to twice their current damage to make them good anyways.

3.Streaks, also only works on bads and terrible light pilots. Deserves it's position of being a total garbage weapon.

I imagine some highly skilled lrm/ssrm players may find my opinions on lrms and ssrms offensive so to save you honorable lot some time, let me assure you that I'm quite aware you "wreck face" in the steering wheel under hive on hoards of bads. Color me impressed, your skill puts me to shame.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 10 September 2015 - 05:21 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Ideally we want LRM to be effective without the need for boating. This requires that the entire EWar package to be reworked and missiles be stripped from EWar. My suggestion would be:

• Decouple targeting and missile locks; this strip missiles from EWar.
  
• ECM no longer blocks targeting, however it does block info (paper doll, weapons, mech type ect.)
  
• BAP, TAG and NARC no longer counters ECM
  
• BAP functions the same with additional seismic sensor abilities
  
• ECM counters NARC and BAP

Missiles will be hard to balance until we remove the hard counter, ECM. AMS should be the proper counter. To shift to proper AMS and LRM relationship:

• make AMS free on every mech with the option to equip ammo
  
• only additional AMS, if applicable, and ammo costs

This would get more AMS on the field so we can properly judge how LRM interact with its counter. Next, we need to adjust LRM risk vs reward ratio.

• no more shared missile locks! You must have los to lock on target
  
• only TAG, NARC and UAV can paint targets for indirect missile locks
  
• make LRM fire and forget
  
• if target moves out of los missiles will fly to last known location

Finally modules and Artemis. Initially added as band-****, target decay and radar deprivation, would no longer serve a purpose with my suggested changes. All players would be getting free radar deprivation. As expensive as Artemis is it could use a bit of a buff.

• remove the two modules and refund cbills
  
• grant target decay ability to Artemis
  
• tighter cone of fire for Artemis equipped SRM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 September 2015 - 05:41 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

PalmaRoma, on 10 September 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

1. Srms are awesome, don't know what game your playing but they wreck face if you actually know how to use them. I like the current state of srms right now, any more buffs would make them THE ultimate brawling weapon. Tbh, I actually wouldn't mind srms being the meta for brawlers. Could be pretty interesting.

I don't know what face wrecking you are doing but where I play they go /through/ laughing faces that return the favor with a fistful of lasers or autocannons.

My SRMs rarely register--many times entire volleys do zero damage. And when they do register, the damage is laughable. I switched to small lasers... stuff started dying like crazy.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 10 September 2015 - 05:40 AM.

[Lootee]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 September 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Ideally we want LRM to be effective without the need for boating. This requires that the entire EWar package to be reworked and missiles be stripped from EWar. My suggestion would be:

• Decouple targeting and missile locks; this strip missiles from EWar.
  
• ECM no longer blocks targeting, however it does block info (paper doll, weapons, mech type ect.)
  
• BAP, TAG and NARC no longer counters ECM
  
• BAP functions the same with additional seismic sensor abilities
  
• ECM counters NARC and BAP

Missiles will be hard to balance until we remove the hard counter, ECM. AMS should be the proper counter. To shift to proper AMS and LRM relationship:

• make AMS free on every mech with the option to equip ammo
  
• only additional AMS, if applicable, and ammo costs

This would get more AMS on the field so we can properly judge how LRM interact with its counter. Next, we need to adjust LRM risk vs reward ratio.

• no more shared missile locks! You must have los to lock on target
  
• only TAG, NARC and UAV can paint targets for indirect missile locks
  
• make LRM fire and forget
  
• if target moves out of los missiles will fly to last known location

Finally modules and Artemis. Initially added as band-****, target decay and radar deprivation, would no longer serve a purpose with my suggested changes. All players would be getting free radar deprivation. As expensive as Artemis is it could use a bit of a buff.

• remove the two modules and refund cbills
  
• grant target decay ability to Artemis
  
• tighter cone of fire for Artemis equipped SRM.

Good stuff but it will never happen. Aggressive balancing in this game means changing a number from 180 to 90 after 3 years. But lulz e-sports!

The new game from HBS is our best hope for a more authentic Battletech experience now. Anyway how did that Transuniverse thing turn out? I'm sure they got lots of kickstarter funds, plenty to compete against Frontier and Roberts Space Industries right? With them working overtime on such a great job aggressively balancing the game I can't imagine player/customer backlash sinking their new project. It's inconceivable.

Edited by Lootee, 10 September 2015 - 05:56 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Sarlic, on 10 September 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

Interesting.

Ah you mean something like a continous stream of fire and longer the lock, the less spread? But why wouldn't the player wait a little longer and then fire with more accuracy? (If the team doesnt lose lock by then and then the boater screams "HOLD LOCKS!"

But people have to face-time alot more for just a lock. I don't think people will be happy, the average locktime is already short on first sight, it gets more when a group pushes and or a uav is up.

But overall the locktime is pretty short.

I think if make boating 'too much skillfull' everyone will just cram gauss and lasers on their mechs again because 'Lol, LRM sucks.' just like we have with GH and other weird half-assed solutions.



Yes i want the crazy weapon values back, but boating must have some sort of mechanic to combat excessive boating.

Then counter the MDD first or a light should draw aggro on it. That simple actually. I did it with my Atlas K not too long ago in the group que. MDD + tag + stuffed TAG alone in the field. Me and a other teammate took it with easy because my AMS(still under peforming) catched missiles before he knew he gave up.


Quit spewing nonsense.

Sure we had issues then, but the speed of gameplay was much slower. The LRMs got upped in damage and speed at a certain point (can remember the exact values), but it got reverted because the amount of threads of people who couldn't get in cover fast enough because they either were lacking situational awareness and didnt go in cover fast enough. But those are the values i am talking about and how it should make LRMs more viable. (Apart from boating).

And then again we had much less ECM, much less speedy mechs (apart a few).

Should i remind you that there are still not many mechs equiping AMS because LRM are heavily undervalued.

I doubt you can easily counter a MDD like this, especially not with the old values, you would be scrapped fater than you can look, esepecially with those damage values and simply 6xlrm 5. no ams network ever will help you here. Also, of course in a 2 vs one it's easy.but wiht those damage values, he would have solo'd you both.

[ColourfulConfetti]

@Mister Blastman, since the quote function isn't working for me. I haven't noticed any hit reg issues with srms, might because I only use clan srms, with that said however.

Clan srms and small pulse make for a pretty nice alpha honestly speaking. I still prefer the guass vomit on the timberwolf, but when I get a short range map on CW, I enjoy bring out the quad srm6 small pulse timber, it's good, just not gauss/laser vomit good. At worst they are pretty average weapons, but I'll hesitate to say the are bad, they have their moments. You're way to hasty in deeming them broken. Perfectly usable brawling weapons.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 10 September 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[Lugh]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 September 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Ideally we want LRM to be effective without the need for boating. This requires that the entire EWar package to be reworked and missiles be stripped from EWar. My suggestion would be:

• Decouple targeting and missile locks; this strip missiles from EWar.
  
• ECM no longer blocks targeting, however it does block info (paper doll, weapons, mech type ect.)
  
• BAP, TAG and NARC no longer counters ECM
  
• BAP functions the same with additional seismic sensor abilities
  
• ECM counters NARC and BAP

Missiles will be hard to balance until we remove the hard counter, ECM. AMS should be the proper counter. To shift to proper AMS and LRM relationship:

• make AMS free on every mech with the option to equip ammo
  
• only additional AMS, if applicable, and ammo costs

This would get more AMS on the field so we can properly judge how LRM interact with its counter. Next, we need to adjust LRM risk vs reward ratio.

• no more shared missile locks! You must have los to lock on target
  
• only TAG, NARC and UAV can paint targets for indirect missile locks
  
• make LRM fire and forget
  
• if target moves out of los missiles will fly to last known location

Finally modules and Artemis. Initially added as band-****, target decay and radar deprivation, would no longer serve a purpose with my suggested changes. All players would be getting free radar deprivation. As expensive as Artemis is it could use a bit of a buff.

• remove the two modules and refund cbills
  
• grant target decay ability to Artemis
  
• tighter cone of fire for Artemis equipped SRM.

Make AMS two flavors, the ammo type, or the SLaser type. ECM should simply be doubling the time it takes to lock. Not making locks impossible except if countered completely.

[Mcgral18]

PalmaRoma, on 10 September 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

1. Srms are awesome, don't know what game your playing but they wreck face if you actually know how to use them. I like the current state of srms right now, any more buffs would make them THE ultimate brawling weapon. Tbh, I actually wouldn't mind srms being the meta for brawlers. Could be pretty interesting.

I've removed SRMs in favour of lasers.

On paper less damage (although considerably more per ton), in practice the 6-12M CoF prevents effective appllication of that damage on small mechs. Even Assaults will spread most of that damage, as an Atlas is roughly 18M tall. That's SRMs from head to knee, from arm to arm. That's every hitbox.

SPLs, MLs and MPLs can focus that damage on generally 2 hitboxes accounting spread.


SRMs should be good at short range, as that's the only range they have. They should be the BEST short range weapon, as they can't even use their maximum range (1x, sub300M w/out quirks) because of their pitiful travel speed.


They don't pack a punch, they don't kill efficiently, and they lack the ease of use Lasers and Gauss have (hitscan, 2KM/s travel speed).


They lose in every category...which shouldn't be the case.



SplatCats should be feared, not laughed at. Perhaps Mad Dogs at a later date (but TimberGods interfere there...)

[ColourfulConfetti]

What you're completely missing is the fact that you only need to face your enemy for a fraction of a second to fire off an srm volley, vs lasers which require you face your enemy the entire duration of your lasers (clan lasers have egregious burn times). In comparison to gauss, they have no charge time, meaning your expose yourself for less time. Srms drastically improve your ability to torso twist while doing serious damage, hence why they make for great brawling weapons. Did I say srms are the best brawling weapons? No, I didn't, but they have a place, and ARE useable in spite of what you think.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 10 September 2015 - 07:20 AM.

[Lugh]

Mcgral18, on 10 September 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

I've removed SRMs in favour of lasers.

On paper less damage (although considerably more per ton), in practice the 6-12M CoF prevents effective appllication of that damage on small mechs. Even Assaults will spread most of that damage, as an Atlas is roughly 18M tall. That's SRMs from head to knee, from arm to arm. That's every hitbox.

SPLs, MLs and MPLs can focus that damage on generally 2 hitboxes accounting spread.


SRMs should be good at short range, as that's the only range they have. They should be the BEST short range weapon, as they can't even use their maximum range (1x, sub300M w/out quirks) because of their pitiful travel speed.


They don't pack a punch, they don't kill efficiently, and they lack the ease of use Lasers and Gauss have (hitscan, 2KM/s travel speed).


They lose in every category...which shouldn't be the case.



SplatCats should be feared, not laughed at. Perhaps Mad Dogs at a later date (but TimberGods interfere there...)

I have two splatDawgs, that people often overlook. Until they are dead.

[Mister Blastman]

PalmaRoma, on 10 September 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

What you're completely missing is the fact that you only need to face your enemy for a fraction of a second to fire off an srm volley, vs lasers which require you face your enemy the entire duration of your lasers (clan lasers have egregious burn times). In comparison to gauss, they have no charge time, meaning your expose yourself for less time. Srms drastically improve your ability to torso twist while doing serious damage, hence why they make for great brawling weapons. Did I say srms are the best brawling weapons? No, I didn't, but they have a place, and ARE useable in spite of what you think.

I wish I could believe that. More than a year ago my SHD-2K was a nasty monster. It would rip faces off with 3x SRM 6 + Artemis and 3 Medium Lasers. It was brutal. 700 - 900 point damage games in the PUG queue were easy with it. Something has happened in that time since then where my SRMs just don't have any oomph.

And even a year ago they still felt slightly weak--but they were as you say, useful enough. But they aren't now. They feel like cotton balls.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

I would like to see a buff in missles but let's not get carried away here. We dont want a new abusive brawling meta where everyone takes srm's again. Oh wait... maybe we do!

All jokes aside, I could see the community requesting an increase for clan srm's to 2.15 dmg, and is srm's to 2.3 dmg, and maybe match or come close to ac20 travel speed. Someone get Bishop or someone important to talk to Russ during the town hall tonight, and lets see what can be done.

Edited by Alwrath, 10 September 2015 - 08:36 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Alwrath, on 10 September 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

I would like to see a buff in missles but let's not get carried away here. We dont want a new abusive brawling meta where everyone takes srm's again. Oh wait... maybe we do!

All jokes aside, I could see the community requesting an increase for clan srm's to 2.15 dmg, and is srm's to 2.3 dmg, and maybe match or come close to ac20 travel speed. Someone get Bishop or someone important to talk to Russ during the town hall tonight, and lets see what can be done.

Question already posted, on page 2 as well...but I mentioned the Jesus Box so it will probably be ignored.

[Khobai]

Quote

I would like to see a buff in missles but let's not get carried away here. We dont want a new abusive brawling meta where everyone takes srm's again. Oh wait... maybe we do!

To be fair when splatcats were at their height we also had boomjagers, cataphract poptarts, and raven 3Ls as viable alternatives.

We had very strong brawling. We had strong sniping. We had light mechs with major hit detection issues that actually made lights on par with heavier classes. And streaks were actually used because they were pretty much the only counter to lights. When has there ever been that much diversity in the meta?

That 6 month period of the game is probably the closest weve ever gotten to a balanced meta. We had meta-viable builds for all three weapon types (ballistic, energy, and missile) as well as brawling, sniping, and light mech shenanigans. Yes there were individual imbalances like the ridiculous SRM splash damage, overpowered jumpjets, and major hit detection issues... but the meta on the whole was pretty balanced.

I have always said strong SRMs are one of the keys to a healthy meta. They give brawlers the dominance they need inside 270m and make them a major threat vs non-brawlers. Without strong SRMs brawling just doesnt pack enough of a punch to be meta-viable.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[N a p e s]

PGI, please make SRMs awesome again!

Also, LBX buffs please!

Edited by PowerOfNapes, 10 September 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[Fate 6]

They need the old Artemis grouping. I believe the convergence ranges were 108m and 180m. 36 damage (3xsrm6) isn't even that great anymore. Huginn has like 17dps and is only niche viable. The same missile dps back in beta would be crazy.

The reason lasers and PPCs became meta is because SRMs became crap. People took more ACs when SRMs were good because ACs wouldn't overheat when the fighting got close. SRMs are so bad now that large lasers can brawl them

[wanderer]

Huginn also does well because it doesn't fire so many SRMs at once, meaning it tends to dodge some of the "miss" effects SRMs get when enough are launched together.

[Lugh]

PalmaRoma, on 10 September 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

3.Streaks, also only works on bads and terrible light pilots. Deserves it's position of being a total garbage weapon.

I imagine some highly skilled lrm/ssrm players may find my opinions on lrms and ssrms offensive so to save you honorable lot some time, let me assure you that I'm quite aware you "wreck face" in the steering wheel under hive on hoards of bads. Color me impressed, your skill puts me to shame.

Funny I find that SSRMs work just as well in high tier play as they do in 'low tier' play where the under hive resides. Just because you view them with contempt, doesn't mean that they don't have their place.