374 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Okay, so they are 3-inch HE missiles. Not only are they tiny, but HE is not meant for use against hardened targets; HE is meant for soft targets like infantry, aircraft, trains, and light vehicles. If it were meant strictly for use against 'Mechs, they'd be using shaped-charge penetrators.

Ergo, I stand by my previous statement. The missiles are individually weak.

[Strum Wealh]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 September 2015 - 01:12 AM, said:

Okay, so they are 3-inch HE missiles. Not only are they tiny, but HE is not meant for use against hardened targets; HE is meant for soft targets like infantry, aircraft, trains, and light vehicles. If it were meant strictly for use against 'Mechs, they'd be using shaped-charge penetrators.

Ergo, I stand by my previous statement. The missiles are individually weak.

Indeed, individual LRMs & SRMs are rather weak.
However, that wasn't the argument; the argument was with regard to whether a reasonable estimation of the missiles' relative potency could be developed. We know the size and mass of the LRMs, and we have reasonable estimates of the likely explosive power of the materials of which they are composed, and we know the composition & characteristics of the armor (both Standard and Ferro-Fibrous) against which they must face-off.

Also, the "early 3050s" sees the re-introduction of the Tandem-Charge Warheads (see page 372 of Tactical Operations), which work in the same manner as their real-world counterparts.
However, it must be noted that these are an alternate munition type, and that they do not represent the workings of the "standard" warheads.

[RePlayBoy101]

this is my favorite mech ... i hope it wont be overpriced like most of the mech

[Y E O N N E]

Strum Wealh, on 13 September 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

Indeed, individual LRMs & SRMs are rather weak.
However, that wasn't the argument; the argument was with regard to whether a reasonable estimation of the missiles' relative potency could be developed. We know the size and mass of the LRMs, and we have reasonable estimates of the likely explosive power of the materials of which they are composed, and we know the composition & characteristics of the armor (both Standard and Ferro-Fibrous) against which they must face-off.

Also, the "early 3050s" sees the re-introduction of the Tandem-Charge Warheads (see page 372 of Tactical Operations), which work in the same manner as their real-world counterparts.
However, it must be noted that these are an alternate munition type, and that they do not represent the workings of the "standard" warheads.

True. However, it still serves my purpose in discrediting the other poster's stance, that a 'Mech should get taken out by a single LRM and we should just abandon all common logic for the game simply because of such incredulous implausibilities as a 'Mech surviving hits from more than one missile.

Personally, "rule of cool" only goes so far.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 13 September 2015 - 02:05 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 September 2015 - 10:17 PM, said:

A PPC is not an energy weapon, it's a projectile weapon. Slugs are made of matter, which are made of atoms, which contain protons. PPCs fire streams of protons or heavier ions, AKA, matter, AKA a projectile.

Given your ignorance, I suggest you go look up the famous equation, E=M(c^2), as well as Newton's Laws of Motion. I also suggest you read up on photons and protons.

You are wrong, it is both. It uses high amounts of energy to create plasma, then it uses more energy to launch the plasma as a projectile.

[Makenzie71]

Has anyone given a release date?

[Escef]

Makenzie71, on 13 September 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

Has anyone given a release date?

Russ said December 1st on Twitter.

[Makenzie71]

Thanks. I guess I should invest in this "twitter" thing.

[Strum Wealh]

Marack Drock, on 12 September 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Common sense in my head says a missile would blow any mech to bits. Let alone 20. so.... possibly its because I grew up surrounded by military people and getting to ride in tanks every month though.

Marack Drock, on 13 September 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Here's how I know:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20
One: They are guided missiles with homing sensors, FFAR was an unguided missile. Next even if it was an FFAR the FFAR was capable of doing pretty substantial damage to AIR CRAFT CARRIERS! Even if these missiles were the equivalent of FFARs (some of the very first missiles to be able to be shot from an Airplane) it would still do very substantial damage (if not destroy) a mech.

Also in that it states that 1 ton only gives 6 missiles, giving them an equal size to about 166 pounds a piece which is actually 30 pounds larger than an FFAR. The damage done would be WAY more than anything by a tiny shoulder mounted rocket, which is seems to be the damage done in this series.

Look it up on Sarna people. LRMs way more than an FFAR, are guided missiles, and would do enough damage to easily take out any mech in real life. Its not rocket science.

Marack, Yeonne Greene & I just had this conversation on this very page of the thread.

Strum Wealh, on 12 September 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

IS LRMs are 75mm projectiles (Wolves on the Border, chapter 19) with a mass of approximately 8.33 kilograms per missile (1 ton = 1000 kg, 120 missiles per ton).

They are comparable in size & mass (and, presumably, relative destructive capability) to the FIM-43 Redeye shoulder-launched missile (70mm diameter, 1.20 meter length, 8.3 kg missile mass, 1.06 kg impact-detonated blast-fragmentation warhead).

Strum Wealh, on 13 September 2015 - 01:02 AM, said:

Most sources simply say that standard LRMs and SRMs (that is, the ones that don't use alternate warhead types) use "high explosive" warheads, with Era Report: 2750 being more specific in stating (on pages 99-100) that the entire warhead is composed of "a metal composite/high explosive mix", and that the missiles' airframes are also composed of "composite explosive material".

Metal-composite explosives have been around in reality since WWII, with examples including Torpex, Composition H6 (which is notable for being castable), and Tritonal. Most of those were between 18% and 50% more powerful than the equivalent mass of pure TNT.

Many modern applications have since replaced those materials with polymer-bonded explosives (which were originally developed in the 1950s), many of which safe to machine into complex three-dimensional shapes on a lathe or CNC machine. Many of those are between 60% and 70% more powerful than the equivalent mass of pure TNT.

Strum Wealh, on 13 September 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

Indeed, individual LRMs & SRMs are rather weak.
However, that wasn't the argument; the argument was with regard to whether a reasonable estimation of the missiles' relative potency could be developed. We know the size and mass of the LRMs, and we have reasonable estimates of the likely explosive power of the materials of which they are composed, and we know the composition & characteristics of the armor (both Standard and Ferro-Fibrous) against which they must face-off.

Also, the "early 3050s" sees the re-introduction of the Tandem-Charge Warheads (see page 372 of Tactical Operations), which work in the same manner as their real-world counterparts.
However, it must be noted that these are an alternate munition type, and that they do not represent the workings of the "standard" warheads.

Firing a single LRM at the front of a BattleMech would arguably be functionally-equivalent to firing a single FIM-43 Redeye at the front of a M1 Abrams; short of a very lucky hit on some seam or joint (the BattleTech/MechWarrior equivalent of the "through armor critical hit"), the effect would be negligable.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Makenzie71, on 13 September 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Thanks. I guess I should invest in this "twitter" thing.

I would never, didnt have one when it first came out, still dont to this day...

[Escef]

Ok, full stop. A single LRM deals 1 point of damage in Battletech terms. At least one member of the TT design team has publicly stated that based upon basic physics and known power output, an Inner Sphere small laser (3 damage, barely a threat by itself to light mechs) would core out an Abrams. We're talking about orders of magnitude more destructive capacity than most military hardware available today.

Now, if you guys want to continue on this, I'd suggest making a thread specifically for it, as it has little to nothing to do with the confirmation of the Marauder... Y'know, the thread topic?

[FupDup]

Escef, on 13 September 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

At least one member of the TT design team has publicly stated that based upon basic physics and known power output, an Inner Sphere small laser (3 damage, barely a threat by itself to light mechs) would core out an Abrams.

So that makes this following joke video actually canon?

[Escef]

FupDup, on 13 September 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

So that makes this following joke video actually canon?

Supposedly the story is he made that after an actual game on MegaMek where he had a bunch of optional rules turned on and performed a through-armor-crit, nailed an ammo mag, Stackpole'd the engine, and that chain-reacted into the other enemy mechs.

[Strum Wealh]

Escef, on 13 September 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

At least one member of the TT design team has publicly stated that based upon basic physics and known power output, an Inner Sphere small laser (3 damage, barely a threat by itself to light mechs) would core out an Abrams.

[citation needed]

----------

Escef, on 13 September 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Now, if you guys want to continue on this, I'd suggest making a thread specifically for it, as it has little to nothing to do with the confirmation of the Marauder... Y'know, the thread topic?

"PGI President Russ Bullock confirmed that the 75-ton Marauder BattleMech would be included in MechWarrior Online ('MWO') during the September 10, 2015 Town Hall broadcast, and confirmed via Twitter that the Marauder has an anticipated release date of December 1st, 2015.

During the Town Hall broadcast, Mr. Bullock also confirmed that the 'Hero Mech' of the Marauder chassis would be based on the personal vehicle of the mysterious, iconic mercenary known as 'The Bounty Hunter'.

Much of the MWO playerbase is excited in a positive manner, with some elements upset because the PGI rendition of the Marauder, created by Alex 'flyingdebris' Iglesias, does not closely resemble the 'Roiquonmi Glaug Battle Pod' from the Japanese animated series The Super Dimensional Fortress Macross & Harmony Gold USA's westernized Macross derivative, Robotech."

What more is there to say, at this point?

[Y E O N N E]

That previous line of conversations we were having was, in fact, related to the looks of the Marauder.

Ironic.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Well, a small laser does weight 1000lb....im sure something that large could wreck an MBT...

[Escef]

Strum Wealh, on 13 September 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

[citation needed]

Sadly, that was on an older iteration of the official forums over on Catalyst's webspace. I heard it crashed a few years back and most of the old posts were lost.

But , hey, how about you MAKE A NEW DAMN THREAD???

[Strum Wealh]

Escef, on 13 September 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

But , hey, how about you MAKE A NEW DAMN THREAD???

Yeonne Greene, on 13 September 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

That previous line of conversations we were having was, in fact, related to the looks of the Marauder.

Ironic.

Escef, the discussion of LRM/SRM destructive capability is related to the discussion of the Glaug's/Marauder's spindliness, and its resultant perceived fragility.

Marack Drock, on 11 September 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Nathan Foxbane, on 11 September 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

I was never very attached to the original Marauder, but while I had MW2 back when MS DOS was a thing I did not get into BT proper until the late '90's and by then the Marauder looked very out of pace stylistically. The look never inspired the fear its description in the books did. Underwhelming to say the least. The newer ones, even the reseen, are at least 'Mechs I can fear by appearance and not just loadout rather than laugh at how absurd the proportions are.
The following are not things to be feared, they are things to be mocked.


Those arms are not going to take an AC/20 or PPC without snapping like rotten twigs (a feature that actually bugged me in the art for certain very popular Clan heavies as well). Where to even begin on how messed up the waist and hips are? The turret mechanism is too small to pass the ammo through, is the ammo stored with the weapon up there? Does to pilot lay down to look through the viewport or do they actually have to sit so far back in the 'Mech as to make it superfluous? What possible purpose do those ground facing tubes serve? It's a 'Mech not a catfish! Is that a weapon barrel or a sensor boom below the viewport and why is it consuming space the pilot could be sitting in? The truncated cone on the bottom, what purpose does it serve if it is not a jump jet and if it is why mount it there? Was this thing designed in an asylum for insane Battlemech engineers?

I know there is a lot of nostalgia for both BT and Macross tied up in those looks, but those looks only really fit in the latter not the former. The old Marauder just frustrates the hell out of me.

you do know what in real life any barrage of missiles (even SRM sixes) would render a mech destroyed in real life. Seriously. No way any mech in the world would survive an LRM 20. If we are going to talk realistic physics or anything with this series, lets start with how 80% of the weapons used would instantly do way more damage than they have ever done. Know in the BattleTech animated series when like 2 missiles can knock a mech over. That is what it would be like in real life.

[Escef]

Strum Wealh, on 13 September 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Escef, the discussion of LRM/SRM destructive capability is related to the discussion of the Glaug's/Marauder's spindliness, and its resultant perceived fragility.

Please, it left that behind a couple pages ago and dived into the territory of shoulder fired missiles versus the Abrams and various attack aircraft. Especially when we had one guy arguing that a single Battletech/Mechwarrior LRM is similar in size and destructive capacity to a shoulder fired weapon that it is obviously larger than and about 500 years more advanced than. They're as far ahead of modern weapons as modern handguns are ahead of wheellock pistols.

Edited by Escef, 13 September 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[ShinobiHunter]

RePlayBoy101, on 13 September 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

this is my favorite mech ... i hope it wont be overpriced like most of the mech

It will be priced like the Urbanmech was, IIRC. Plus $15 if you want the "Bounty Hunter" hero