240 replies to this topic

[Herr Vorragend]

bad idea, cause clan ccan't switch the engine type from xl to std.
Forget it

[Dauntless Blint]

Herr Vorragend, on 19 September 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

bad idea, cause clan ccan't switch the engine type from xl to std.
Forget it

And this matters because?Explain your thoughts.The whole objective of this exercise is to buff IS or nerf Clan to achieve balance and increase TTK...

[Duke Nedo]

Herr Vorragend, on 19 September 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

bad idea, cause clan ccan't switch the engine type from xl to std.
Forget it

That had been valid if the suggestion had been to make also clan mechs die on xl st loss in the name of balance ... Oh the tears!

[Dauntless Blint]

Edit:sorry double post during connection loss.

Edited by CorditeJunkie, 19 September 2015 - 02:34 AM.

[WildeKarde]

I always look at taking an IS XL as risk vs reward, the XL gives me a benefit in speed or loadout but with the chance losing a side torso will take me out of the match.

Playing a clan mech I have the reward but risk isn't really applicable. Losing a side torso takes out the weapon on that side of the mech but good chance I'll still be in the fight.

TT used heat to balance engine damage and it had the effect of limiting your damage output, two engine hits and you lost half the capacity of 10DHS meaning a single ER PPC and moving was overheating you. That penalty doesn't seem to work so well in MWO.

We need something that is enough of a penalty for that kind of loss, you're balancing this against death for the IS mech on side torso loss.

Also if there isn't a risk or penalty that is gameplay affecting then what I feel will happen on steam launch is any new players, who have no background knowledge of the lore, will simply see playing only clan is better. They won't see there is any reason to not play the side who has the best equipment with no restrictions.

[KuroNyra]

Side torso loss for IS = Death.
If you remove that, no matter how much handicap you will put. People WILL take XL instead of STD.

The only thing helping STD not being ignored is the fact they can still live after losing both side torso.

Work need to be done on the Clans Engine, not the IS ones. They arealdy have quircks to help them alot.

Edited by KuroNyra, 19 September 2015 - 02:51 AM.

[waterfowl]

NO. NO. NO. There are too many ****** consequences to this bad idea

1. Indirectly increases pinpoint meta by giving more tonnage to everyone. TTK is already too low
2. No reason to take STD, because lacking both STs is the same as death except for a tiny number of mechs
3. Makes every mech cost even more for new players because of XL price, makes bigger gap between poor and rich players
4. Homogenizes the game and makes for fewer interesting choices when it comes to builds
5. ST loss will severely injure light mechs more than assaults, who don't need speed
6. Will make every assault absurdly fast without penalty, in addition to firepower
7. Takes away something that changes the gameplay (playing versus or playing as) clan mechs, which again, leads to less meaningful choices in the game which means less fun.

Edited by waterfowl, 19 September 2015 - 03:01 AM.

[Golden Vulf]

Davers, on 18 September 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

But wouldn't LFE just replace both STD and XL engines? Sure, they are not as good as Clan XLs or as good at weight saving as IS XLs, but they would still be the best compromise of weight savings and survivability.

Light mechs would still probably use XLs. Their legs are the things everyone aims for.

As for other issues of balance, there are still plenty of clan mechs that would love to take their "superior" endo-steel, but don't have the opportunity.

3 out of 5 clan heavies can't take endo steel.
All 4 clan assault mechs are locked out of it as well.

Yep, the main fighting mechs, those of 60 tons and up, 7 out of 9 can't choose to take that super special endosteel.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 19 September 2015 - 06:03 AM.

[Dracol]

Golden Vulf, on 19 September 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

3 out of 5 clan heavies can't take endo steel.
All 4 clan assault mechs are locked out of it as well.

Yep, the main fighting mechs, those of 60 tons and up, 7 out of 9 can't choose to take that super special endosteel.

Assaults require slots not tonnage. Look at the Dwolf. As a poster in this thread stated, they'd take a std engine over a xl due to the 4 extra crit alots available. Tonnage without out open crits is uselss.

[Mcgral18]

KuroNyra, on 19 September 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

Side torso loss for IS = Death.
If you remove that, no matter how much handicap you will put. People WILL take XL instead of STD.

The only thing helping STD not being ignored is the fact they can still live after losing both side torso.

Work need to be done on the Clans Engine, not the IS ones. They arealdy have quircks to help them alot.

If you buff STDs, that wouldn't be an issue. Buff them to the point Clam Battlemechs would consider taking one. (well, at least the Hunch with CT hardpoints and Sword and Boarded large ballistic)


The change will only increase TTK. What IS mech that doesn't currently take an XL, would consider taking one? Not the Atlas or Stalker. Hunch? Maybe the non 4Gs, but my proposed heat would make the 4P consider (60% TrueDubs are almost SHS).

The STD engine buff increases TTK, and some mechs might consider wanting that extra 50-60 structure.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think i could support,
STD getting +10-20ish CT Structure,
and IS XLs getting +10-20ish ST Structure,
instead of a Clan XL Speed Penalty,

Edit-
Adding this to the Topic

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 September 2015 - 07:52 AM.

[Brody319]

Light fusion engines or bust!
That is the trade off.
STD - high survivability/heavy weight
LFE - Medium Survivability/Medium Weight
XL - Low surviavability/Light weight

It is a balanced system. If we used your buff then LFE would have absolutely no use in this game.
A loss of 30% speed isn't a big deal. plus you are failing to take into account the current skill system.

For Clans they would lose 10% speed from their regular unskilled mech
For IS they would lose 20% Speed from their regular unskilled mech.
For heavy and Assault mechs this wouldn't be a big deal since they are already pretty slow. However Lights and Mediums would suffer greatly since Lights and Mediums rely a lot on speed to stay alive in the current meta.

Essentially you would make the STD engine useless, LFE useless, and only punish the mechs that aren't used very much anyway.

[Zordicron]

OP

This is fine as you present it, 10% right off.

So, STD engines are non favorable then? OK, BUFF Std engines then. they already weight a shitton more anyway.

I would say, STD engine= makes you more survivable, in a backdoor sort of way right now right? So, make it a front door way, make it so STD engines provide +15 structure to the RT and LT and 5 structure to the CT. Numbers tweakable, as you said about XL numbers.

Now we have a lighter engine for making less sturdy, more powerful offensive mechs.
Now we have a heavy engine for making a more durable, less powerful defensive(less offensive maybe) mech.

[Sjorpha]

Seeing as we already have a nice balance between IS std and XL engines, wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just make clan XL die on side torso loss as well instead of all these complex tweaks.

[LordBraxton]

LT. HARDCASE, on 18 September 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'm a proponent for venturing away from the tabletop to balance MWO better, but removing IS death at the ST loss would pervert the game too far for my comfort.

Light Fusion Engines are the answer to the balance issue caused by the Clan XL engine, not making the IS XL something it never was and never will be.

IS XL that survives a ST loss obsoletes the STD and the LFE, like... who'd run anything else, ever?

clan XLs already obsolete the entire IS tech tree.

[AEgg]

Sjorpha, on 19 September 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Seeing as we already have a nice balance between IS std and XL engines, wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just make clan XL die on side torso loss as well instead of all these complex tweaks.

Making clan XL kill on torso loss would make a large number of clan assaults and heavies unplayably bad, because they can't choose not to use an XL.

Why not just double or triple the current heat penalty so it's actually noticeable and leave it at that?

[Sug]

Just get rid of Speed Tweak.

[Khobai]

Quote

And yet all of those mechs are more than operational after losing a side torso, even with an extra speed penalty.

Again. How is a kitfox losing half its weapons, half its dissipation, and a good portion of its speed from getting hit one time with an alphastrike is even remotely fair? One alpha strike from laser vomit is all it takes to pop a kitfoxs side torso.

A kitfox going 80kph or slower might as well be dead because a light mech cant effectively retreat at that speed. Thats not "more than operational". More than operational is being able to retreat after losing a side torso, rallying with the rest of your team, and still being able to do what you can... either with ECM or whatever weapons you have remaining if your ECM side was the one that got shot out.

You are so overeager to nerf mechs like the timberwolf that you dont think out the impact these nerfs will have on other mechs that arnt overpowered, kitfox being a perfect example.

Quote

Making clan XL kill on torso loss would make a large number of clan assaults and heavies unplayably bad, because they can't choose not to use an XL.

This. Clans cant choose not to use CXL. Youre forcing an absurd penalty on them that they cant possibly avoid. And its not just a lot assaults and heavies it makes unplayable after losing a side torso but lights and mediums too.

Not all clan mechs are overpowered. Mechs like the Kitfox are inferior to almost ALL IS lights despite having Clan XL. Clan XL doesnt help them very much. Yet you wanna nerf the Kitfox even worse?

You people are nuts. Its really only 2-3 clan mechs that are overpowered. Yet you want to nerf ALL of them, even the ones that are underpowered... thats not how proper game balancing is done. Instead of a dumb blanket nerf on everything how bout just a focused nerf on whats actually causing balance problems? That makes far more sense to me.

Quote

clan XLs already obsolete the entire IS tech tree.

Yeah because the Kitfox is so much better than the Firestarter. LOLOL. CXL is only overpowered in specific instances not every instance. The Kitfox is an example of a mech where having CXL doesnt make it superior to IS mechs.

Quote

Just get rid of Speed Tweak.

I support this idea. Get rid of speed tweak completely. Or at the very least have pilot skill trees where taking speed tweak means giving up a equally important skill in another skill tree.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Sug]

And get rid of Fast Fire while you're at it.

[Pjwned]

Sjorpha, on 19 September 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Seeing as we already have a nice balance between IS std and XL engines, wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just make clan XL die on side torso loss as well instead of all these complex tweaks.

That would be going way too far in the other direction and would instantly put a number of clan mechs in garbage tier.

All that's needed is a noticeable but not crippling penalty for losing 20% of your cXL engine, that's it. The current penalty isn't enough and it should be changed because it's dumb now, but that also doesn't mean a huge, drastic, might-as-well-be-dead-if-not-already-dead penalty is needed either.

AEgg, on 19 September 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Making clan XL kill on torso loss would make a large number of clan assaults and heavies unplayably bad, because they can't choose not to use an XL.

Why not just double or triple the current heat penalty so it's actually noticeable and leave it at that?

Do you really want such a large heat penalty though? That would make it enough of a penalty but it sounds kind of dumb to just have it affect 1 thing and give it a huge penalty rather than having another additional type of penalty.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 September 2015 - 10:26 AM.