240 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

The big question is how to avoid end game for Inner Sphere side torso loss without making the Inner Sphere XL exactly like the Omni XL. Also how to have some balance in durability, without making them the same.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Theyre not even in the game yet. We dont even know how PGI will balance them. Or if theyll even be viable in the first place.

I suspect that the PTS Paulgorithm™ will be most unkind to them...

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

That alone doesnt make up for having locked engine ratings and not being able to use STD engines. Locked engine ratings are a BIG deal and quite a few clan mechs are gimped by having way too big engines.

The only Clams with engines that are truly too huge so far are the Gargles, Gladiator, and Ferret. Even then, the Exe's bigger issues are JJs and low-mounted arms than engine. Most other Clammer mechs are able to get by with either good locked engines or at least decent ones.

Not being able to use STD engines is almost like saying that the Clans are unable to use SHS lol.

Edited by FupDup, 18 September 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[Livewyr]

I do not want clan mechs in IS skins, or IS mechs in clan skins. It removes flavor from picking a side...

I think that clan XLs should have a heavier penalty for losing a Side Torso (hell 35-40% speed loss works..) but I do not think IS should have clan style XLs simply because they don't have all the hardlocked components, including engine. (That, and if they made IS engines equivalent to clans, they can kiss STD engines good bye, except for some assault mechs that want to use AC20s.)

[Johnny Z]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Theyre not even in the game yet. We dont know how PGI will balance them. Or if theyll even be viable in the first place.

But maybe have Clan Battlemechs use regular XL engines instead of CXL engines. Thats one possible solution.



That alone doesnt make up for having locked engine ratings Locked engine ratings are a BIG deal and quite a few clan mechs are gimped by having way too big engines.

So you think insta boom for Inner Sphere XL's is the balance? Thats not even close to balanced. Instead of repeating that for the millionth time on these forums come up with a balance then?

By the way I am already laughing at what players think balance is if they think IS and Clan techs are balanced in the game. Amuse me.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 September 2015 - 08:27 PM.

[Khobai]

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Not being able to use STD engines is almost like saying that the Clans are unable to use SHS lol.

Not true. The direwolf has head and center torso weapon hardpoints. It could zombie itself with a STD engine. Certainly it would live longer than it does with a CXL.

The point is the direwolf doesnt get that option. And not getting that option is worth something. Even if its not worth very much.

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I think that clan XLs should have a heavier penalty for losing a Side Torso (hell 35-40% speed loss works..)

Again this is a really really bad idea.

If you want to slow mechs down you shoot their legs off. That is how you slow mechs down.

We dont need more incentive to shoot at peoples torsos. Theres already enough of a penalty to losing a side torso as is. Losing speed should not be among those penalties.

Specifically for the reason mentioned above, clan mechs cant choose not to use CXL.

You would be turning CXL into a veritable anchor around a clan mech's neck that drags it down more than it helps. As soon as you lose a side torso you lose nearly ALL of your fighting capability.... half your weapons, half your dissipation, half your speed gone just from one or two alphastrikes. Thats ridiculous.

Im not saying CXL and IS XL shouldnt be balanced better, but this idea is ill-conceived, absolutely terrible, and would completely destroy clan mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Johnny Z, on 18 September 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

So you think insta boom for Inner Sphere XL's is the balance? Thats not even close to balanced. Instead of repeating that for the millionth time on these forums come up with a balance then?

I doesn't matter you would kick and sceam clan op if they exposed every time they fired a laser.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

Not true. The direwolf has head and center torso weapon hardpoints. It could zombie itself with a STD engine. Certainly it would live longer than it does with a CXL.

The Whale's benefit from STD engine wouldn't be surviving longer, because its hitboxes and speed don't really facilitate that. The Whale's gain would just be 4 more critslots, because that mech has lots of surplus weight and a hard time using up all of it before slots...

[Johnny Z]

Yokaiko, on 18 September 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

I doesn't matter you would kick and sceam clan op if they exposed every time they fired a laser.

If they balance the two techs I will miss these days when I can freely call Omni pilots man babies and crutch jockies and various cheese related remarkes. lol

If they balances the XL's engines and the CGauss it would be super close and I would have to stop making fun of the subject. Its nothing personal.

Also if a Clan faction did rule the Star map after giving the Inner Sphere time to repopulate then they could have some pride in that. Not like now.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 September 2015 - 08:43 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Theyre not even in the game yet. We dont know how PGI will balance them. Or if theyll even be viable in the first place.

But maybe have Clan Battlemechs use IS XL engines instead of Clan XL engines. Thats one possible solution. So they would lose out on the extra health in exchange for being able to change their engine rating and engine type. They would still be able to survive a side torso destruction as well, since IS XL engines would be buffed with that in mind.

That alone doesnt make up for having locked engine ratings. Locked engine ratings are a BIG deal and quite a few clan mechs are gimped by having way too big engines. Executioner for example.

FupDup is right, many including my self have said this before
(Of Clan Battlemechs And Is Omnimechs! Discussion!)

this would give all BattleMechs(IS or Clan) IS-STD-Engines and IS-XL-Engines,
this would give all OmniMechs(IS or Clan) Clan-XL-Engines,

Lore Breaking Balance is still balance,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[Khobai]

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FupDup is right, many including my self have said this before

I dont see how hes right. Everything about IIC mechs is entirely speculation at this point. There are no hard facts.


The truth is we dont know how Clan Battlemechs will be balanced by PGI. They could be completely terrible for all we know.

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The Whale's benefit from STD engine wouldn't be surviving longer, because its hitboxes and speed don't really facilitate that. The Whale's gain would just be 4 more critslots, because that mech has lots of surplus weight and a hard time using up all of it before slots...

Regardless of whatever the benefit might be: more crit slots or more survivability, the point still stands: the direwolf doesnt get the option to use STD and that very fact is worth something.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

I dont see how hes right. Everything about IIC mechs is entirely speculation at this point. There are no hard facts.

The truth is we dont know how Clan Battlemechs will be balanced by PGI. They could be completely terrible for all we know.

I remember Russ made a comment on Twitter to the effect of "our BV system should be able to handle them." Thus, they're probably gonna get negative quirks up the wazoo.

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

Regardless of whatever the benefit might be: more crit slots or more survivability, the point still stands: the direwolf doesnt get the option to use STD and that very fact is worth something.

Frankly, if I really had the ability to change engines on the Whale, I would rather install a bigger Clan XL (which also comes with heatsink slots and more speed/agility to survive a bit better) than a STD300. Even with the CXL300 it's the best assault available and one of the best gundams overall.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

This is a really BAD idea. We already have a way to slow down mechs; you shoot their legs off. The last thing we need is MORE of a reason to shoot mechs in the torso and less of a reason to shoot legs.

I'm sure that fast light mechs with clan XL/light fusion engines (if/when they are implemented) will never be legged again if critting out their engine also slows them down. </sarcasm>

This is not an excuse to avoid a sensible penalty for losing 20% of the engine, so unless you want to advocate for a huge heat penalty instead (something like 50% internal heatsink loss) then a speed penalty is much better.

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The idea is even WORSE when you consider Clan mechs cant choose not to use XL engines, so as soon as they lose a side torso, theyre basically out of the fight from losing half their weapons, half their heat dissipation, AND half their speed. You would make omnimechs completely useless. ST loss should not result in a speed decrease for that reason (and even Battletech had the sense to not make mechs lose speed after losing a side torso).

1) I wasn't aware that 20% penalties were equal to half.

2) You are massively over-exaggerating by saying omnimechs would be completely useless.

3) Taking 2 engine crits in Battletech resulted in a pretty serious heat penalty, which actually did affect a mech's movement if the heat got high enough.

4) Engine crit penalties are separate from side torso destruction penalties.

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Anyone who thinks this idea is good seriously hasnt thought out the ramifications in full.

Or maybe after considering it, the consequences make sense and are reasonable.

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As an alternative, Id like to see engine crits added to the game.

Give engines hitpoints like every other piece of equipment. Whenever an engine critical slot suffers a critical hit the health of the engine would decrease like every other item. A destroyed side torso would cause 20 damage to an XL engine. So the IS XL could survive a side torso destruction since it has 30 health. And the Clan XL would still be more durable since it has 40 health. Also gradually as engines take damage internal heatsinks inside the engine would start to get destroyed.

IS XL would have 30 health
Clan XL would have 40 health
and STD would have 50 health

The only real side effect I see to this is that it might lower TTK. But since the game is being majorly rebalanced anyway maybe its time to considering adding engine crits. They were a huge part of battletech afterall.

I'm mostly just quoting this part to acknowledge it; I don't agree with it for multiple reasons but I don't really want to get into it too much, partly because some of those reasons have already been stated elsewhere.

[Khobai]

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I'm sure that fast light mechs with clan XL/light fusion engines (if/when they are implemented) will never be legged again if critting out their engine also slows them down. </sarcasm>

Kitfox is fast? Puma is fast? Youre basically neutering any clan light thats slow and has side torsos that are easy to hit. Kitfox/Puma are already bad enough as is they dont need a speed hit too when their side torsos pop.

Not to mention fast clan mediums. Theyre neutered too. They have poorly armored side torsos that are easy to pinpoint.

Again its a dumb idea. If you want to slow mechs down you leg them. Thats what legging is for. If you want to reduce a mechs firepower you shoot their side torso out. Every hit location has a purpose and thats how it should be.

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1) I wasn't aware that 20% penalties were equal to half.

Was referencing other peoples posts. Some people are suggesting upto a 45% speed penalty for losing a side torso.

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3) Taking 2 engine crits in Battletech resulted in a pretty serious heat penalty, which actually did affect a mech's movement if the heat got high enough.

It was +10 heat, the equivalent of losing 5 DHS, which is the same penalty we have now for losing a side torso with a CXL.

The only thing we dont have is a movement penalty for overheating. I wouldnt have a problem with that. Thats a better idea than making losing a side torso automatically reduce your speed. Its better since it would allow you to avoid the speed loss so long as you properly manage the additional heat.

FupDup, on 18 September 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

I remember Russ made a comment on Twitter to the effect of "our BV system should be able to handle them." Thus, they're probably gonna get negative quirks up the wazoo.

Frankly, if I really had the ability to change engines on the Whale, I would rather install a bigger Clan XL (which also comes with heatsink slots and more speed/agility to survive a bit better) than a STD300. Even with the CXL300 it's the best assault available and one of the best gundams overall.

Right but thats my whole point. People are always quick to point out the advantages of CXL while completely ignoring the disadvantages that come with it.

Locked engine rating is HUGE. No IS assault would be caught dead with a 300 engine. Yet the dire wolf has no choice.

Changing engine types isnt really that big but its still denying me from running a zombie wubwhale with lots of pulses and a STD engine.

Those disadvantages are worth something... which is why CXL should be at least slightly better than the IS XL. However we all seem to agree that the disparity between the two is much too great at the moment.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2015 - 09:16 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Right but thats my whole point. People are always quick to point out the advantages of CXL while completely ignoring the disadvantages that come with it.

Locked engine rating is HUGE. No IS assault would be caught dead with a 300 engine. Yet the dire wolf has no choice.

Changing engine types isnt really that big but its still denying me from running a zombie wubwhale with lots of pulses and a STD engine.

Those disadvantages are worth something... which is why CXL should be at least slight better than the IS XL. However we all seem to agree that the disparity between the two is much too great at the moment.

That's not really a Clan XL problem, that's an Omnimech problem.

I imagine that Pea Gee Eye would make IS Omnimechs the same way, but with hardlocked IS XL instead. Happy times...

Edited by FupDup, 18 September 2015 - 08:56 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

i still think turn would be a heavier penalty than speed and more fitting, since they would be unable to spread the damage from whoever is shooting their second side off.

i think turn nerf on st loss is more relevant still

if they can aim and kill still with this nerf to turning then good on them, but this would give the inner sphere mechs enough of a leg up once taking the side off - maybe both mechs have one side off who knows.

like- you said this wouldn't be relevant to fire support mechs for example or snipers -

well my counter point to this is that snipers and fire support mechs are balanced by virtue of being fire support mechs and snipers.. they have enough shortcomings as it is - and they just lost half their arsenal presumably - why punish these mechs more?

and if they want to run away with a side blown off then let them they have earned the right to run away, maybe they'll regroup and that will be more interesting

streakers could still hit you yes but they would need to track you somewhat as well with turning

Edited by Mazzyplz, 18 September 2015 - 09:15 PM.

[Ultimax]

aniviron, on 18 September 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure how a system that lets every single IS mech take an additional 5-20 tons of weapons is something that will increase TTK?

This is a nice logical fallacy, where you somehow have managed to assume that EVERY SINGLE IS MECH RIGHT NOW runs a STD engine.



Whatever terrifying IS build you are apparently worried about can already be achieved through the use of an XL engine and is still generally under-gunned vs. the vast majority of clan mechs.


Improving IS XL allows IS mechs to have both speed & firepower without being made of glass - the only thing we'd be changing is making them more resilient.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 September 2015 - 10:10 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

YES! We need this. This won't break clan omnis, it will just put is slightly behind clan xl. Omnis can switch hardpoints, battlemechs can switch engine but not hard points.

If it makes anyone feel better, call it a quirk. St survival quirk.

About penalty, you could go 20/30 because of st slots, or you can use percent of total engine slots, 3/12 for is and 2/10 for clans, making it 20/25.

Unlocking endo/ferro would also be beneficial for balance imo and would walk hand in hand with this change. The overall goal is after all to reduce the need for really strong quirks for tech and save quirks for where they are needed, for hardpoints and geometry!

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Kitfox is fast? Puma is fast? Youre basically destroying any clan light thats slow and has side torsos that are easy to hit.

Not to mention fast clan mediums. Theyre destroyed too. They have poorly armored side torsos that arnt that hard to pinpoint.

Again its a dumb idea. If you want to slow mechs down you leg them. Thats what legging is for.

And yet all of those mechs are more than operational after losing a side torso, even with an extra speed penalty. If you want to completely avoid a speed penalty for losing 20% of the engine, then something else needs to be done instead because the current penalty simply doesn't cut it, and that's the big issue.

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Was referencing other peoples posts. Some people are suggesting upto a 45% speed penalty for losing a side torso.

Well, yeah, that would more than likely be going too far, I agree.

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It was +10 heat, the equivalent of losing 5 DHS, which is the same penalty we have now for losing a side torso with a CXL.

That's wrong because at most you lose 3 DHS (e.g any Timber Wolf) for the engine penalty, but even if that were true the same heat penalty here obviously does not have the same effect as it did in Battletech because heat penalties from 0-100 are completely absent, and therefore that has to be accounted for in other ways if you want the engine crit penalty in this game to be fairly representative of TT engine crit penalties.

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Right but thats my whole point. People are always quick to point out the advantages of CXL while completely ignoring the disadvantages that come with it.

Locked engine rating is HUGE. No IS assault would be caught dead with a 300 engine. Yet the dire wolf has no choice.

Changing engine types isnt really that big but its still denying me from running a zombie wubwhale with lots of pulses and a STD engine.

Those disadvantages are worth something... which is why CXL should be at least slight better than the IS XL. However we all seem to agree that the disparity between the two is much too great at the moment.

I would consider the 50% weight savings (rather than the 25% weight savings from a comparable engine i.e the LFE) enough to cover those disadvantages.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 September 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[Lykaon]

LT. HARDCASE, on 18 September 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'm a proponent for venturing away from the tabletop to balance MWO better, but removing IS death at the ST loss would pervert the game too far for my comfort.

Light Fusion Engines are the answer to the balance issue caused by the Clan XL engine, not making the IS XL something it never was and never will be.

IS XL that survives a ST loss obsoletes the STD and the LFE, like... who'd run anything else, ever?

Well here is the thing.

There is nearly no real impact to a clan XL equiped mech beyond what is already occuring from lossing a side torso.Essentially the worst part isn't the two auto engine hits it's the loss of weapons and equipment in the side torso and corrisponding arm.

The disparity between clan XLs not causing mech destruction on a side torso destruction and the I.S. XL engine causing destruction with a side torso destruction is one of the biggest advantages clan mechs have.

The clan XL engine grants the benifits without the downside of being significantly more fragile.

Meanwhile I.S. XL engines are largely considered not even an option for most I.S. mechs. I.S. XL engines are by and large only used on light and medium mechs and occationally on specific heavy and assault build.

my I.S. mechs have an XL engine in every light mech I own and about 90% of my medium mechs also have an XL engine. 3 heavy mechs I own use XL engines (all Catapults) and exactally zero assault mechs use XL engines. I own over 80 mechs in total.

What this tells me is evasion = survival with a certain degree of speed and mobility the trade off for using an I.S. XL engine is worth it.I however do not feel the dramatic loss of survivability from installing an XL engine in I.S. mechs that lack the small profile speed and mobility to be evasive is ever worth it with the exception of my catapults that have geometry to lessen the effects of side torso vulnerability.

[Dauntless Blint]

I like where the New penalties idea is heading just need to buff the standard engine in some way,maybe double it's critical's hit-points? increase cooling efficiently by 10%? I don't know what would have a meaningful effect but it seems I've heard the line(paraphrase) "the fear is, IS STD engines will be void" after that there's no solid argument against the OP's ideas.My 2.cents...