240 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 18 September 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

He confirmed that?

Did he say which specific year it would jump to?

he said he (doesnt want the Steam Players to Miss out on the Clan Invasion),
so hes gonna leave the Timeline at 3052 for 4-6 months so Steam and enjoy the Invasion,
-
After he will push the Timeline up to (a time that gives the greatest balance of Mechs and Tech),
so im gonna assume maybe 3060-3065ish, as we would see many more weapons and Mechs,

Edit-

FupDup, on 18 September 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Engines really are the biggest clusterfudge for balancing in the entire construction system, because EVERY mech gets hit by them. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of situation. There is no right way out, no magic bullet...

Im trying FupDup, trying to keep out my personal Bias and have Balance,
but i cant help think about my poor Nova with these Changes im Suggesting,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2015 - 07:07 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mystere, on 18 September 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Side Torso Loss on IS XL = Death.
Side Torso Loss on Clan XL = -20% Speed. Second Side Torso Loss = Death.

Those or implement a better critical hit system.

nerf the clans more -.-

I play IS how about no?

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

so im gonna assume maybe 3060-3065ish, as we would see many more weapons and Mechs,

eew no plz no

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

OR, y'know we could just accept that there's no way to truly balance Clan with IS tech 1:1 and start figuring out a decent "multiplier" for things so we can actually balance things by how good they really are.

Seriously. Just stop trying to balance the truly unbalanced. Clan XL > IS XL, Clan endo/ferro > IS endo/ferro, Clan DHS > IS DHS, etc. etc. Rather than attempting system breaking "balancing" fixes that aren't, treat Clantech as the superior thing it is and work from there to slot them in solo/group/CW queues.

The sidegrade this is and always has been stupid

[Johnny Z]

Durability increase on Inner Sphere XL along with shutdown on side torso loss that comes with heat and speed penalties would be a big improvement on whats in game now. Also durability increase on IS standard.

[Idealsuspect]

With this PGI will sell lots of expensive XL engine ^^

I am not again if it don't break BT rules and only if ...

[Livewyr]

I can change my engine rating, yes?

[Johnny Z]

Livewyr, on 18 September 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

I can change my engine rating, yes?

Sure as soon as Inner Sphere can change hard points like Omni mechs. We can trade weapons to, and heat sinks, and you get Inner Sphere CASE and IS get free CASE on all sections etc etc etc.

Easy mode is having and XL that loses a side torso with no penalties and has higher stat equipment across the board.

Anyone actually ever compared the weapons like the IS PPC vrs Omni PPC or the Gauss weapons? Seems like the easy mode isnt common knowledge yet?

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 September 2015 - 07:41 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Mazzyplz, on 18 September 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

a heat nerf of 20, 25, 30, 35 percent, is not going to have a major effect in a mech that just lost 50% of their weapons to a sidetorso loss. it will only make them shut down EVENTUALLY

I have a ton of sword and board builds that can lose one ST and keep on trucking fully operational battle-station style.

[Tarl Cabot]

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

It's not a fallacy. Clantech was built to be better than IS tech from the ground up. That goes back to the very first tabletop TROs- Clantech is the top-tier gear, IS gear is inevitably inferior in some manner unless it has nothing even remotely similar (say, plasma cannons for Clanners vs. plasma rifles for IS, which despite the names are two very different weapon systems.)

.....

Just pointing out that for the BOARD GAME, the Clans originally rolled with Star-League era tech during playtesting against IS forces, and the Clans failed to advance using their combat style. It was at that time that the current Clan tech was invented so that they could roll over non-Star League era mechs.

[Livewyr]

Johnny Z, on 18 September 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

Sure as soon as Inner Sphere can change hard points like Omni mechs. We can trade weapons to, and heat sinks, and you get Inner Sphere CASE and IS get free CASE on all sections etc etc etc.

Easy mode is having and XL that loses a side torso with no penalties and has higher stat equipment across the board.

Anyone actually ever compared the weapons like the IS PPC vrs Omni PPC or the Gauss weapons? Seems like the easy mode isnt common knowledge yet?

Well.. when we don't have hardlocked JJs, MASC, Endo and Ferro (including crit slot location), that might be on the table...

[Johnny Z]

Livewyr, on 18 September 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Well.. when we don't have hardlocked JJs, MASC, Endo and Ferro (including crit slot location), that might be on the table...

Im all for it just make the crit slots equal then. 3 slot heat sinks etc. Sounds great.

Carefull what you ask for during this rebalance thing.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 September 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

IS XL Engine has 3 Engine Crits in its ST,
so on ST loss an IS XL would gain a -30%Speed Quirk ,
-
Clan XL Engine has 2 Engine Crits in its ST,
so on ST loss an IS XL would gain a -20%Speed Quirk ,

This is a really BAD idea. We already have a way to slow down mechs; you shoot their legs off. The last thing we need is MORE of a reason to shoot mechs in the torso and less of a reason to shoot legs.

The idea is even WORSE when you consider Clan mechs cant choose not to use XL engines, so as soon as they lose a side torso, theyre basically out of the fight from losing half their weapons, half their heat dissipation, AND half their speed. You would make omnimechs completely useless. ST loss should not result in a speed decrease for that reason (and even Battletech had the sense to not make mechs lose speed after losing a side torso).

Anyone who thinks this idea is good seriously hasnt thought out the ramifications in full.


As an alternative, Id like to see engine crits added to the game.

Give engines hitpoints like every other piece of equipment. Whenever an engine critical slot suffers a critical hit the health of the engine would decrease like every other item. A destroyed side torso would cause 30 damage to an XL engine. So the IS XL could survive a side torso destruction since it has 40 health. And the Clan XL would still be more durable since it has 50 health. Also gradually as engines take damage internal heatsinks inside the engine would start to get destroyed.

IS XL would have 40 health
Clan XL would have 50 health
and STD would have 60 health

The only real side effect I see to this is that it might lower TTK. But since the game is being majorly rebalanced anyway maybe its time to considering adding engine crits. They were a huge part of battletech afterall.

Edited by Khobai, 21 September 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Id like to see engine crits added to the game.

Give engines hitpoints like every other piece of equipment. Whenever an engine critical slot suffers a critical hit the health of the engine would decrease like every other item. A destroyed side torso would cause 20 damage to an XL engine. So the IS XL could survive a side torso destruction since it has 30 health. And the Clan XL would still be more durable since it has 40 health. Also gradually as engines take damage internal heatsinks inside the engine would start to get destroyed.

IS XL would have 30 health
Clan XL would have 40 health
and STD would have 50 health

The only real side effect I see to this is that it might lower TTK. But since the game is being majorly rebalanced anyway maybe its time to considering adding engine crits. They were a huge part of battletech afterall.

It would make more sense for the IS XL to have higher health so that it isn't worse in EVERY way...

[Johnny Z]

I dont mind easy mode. Some peeps like and thats fine. The problem is when the Omni XL is twice as durable as a Inner Sphere XL. for those that dont get that yet it means that one OMNI mech is worth 2 Inner Sphere mechs for XL durability. Thats a problem.

[Pjwned]

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

OR, y'know we could just accept that there's no way to truly balance Clan with IS tech 1:1 and start figuring out a decent "multiplier" for things so we can actually balance things by how good they really are.

Seriously. Just stop trying to balance the truly unbalanced. Clan XL > IS XL, Clan endo/ferro > IS endo/ferro, Clan DHS > IS DHS, etc. etc. Rather than attempting system breaking "balancing" fixes that aren't, treat Clantech as the superior thing it is and work from there to slot them in solo/group/CW queues.

Even if I were to agree with your solution, which I don't because I think it's crap, it's far too late to do anything like that now. PGI has stated from the beginning their intent to have clans be relatively balanced in this game, that's what they've worked with until now, and there's no good reason to go back on all that.

[Johnny Z]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Huh its half the weight compared to STD?

Plus its getting the major buff of surviving a side torso destruction

Why should it get the most health too? That makes no sense. Clan XL is supposed to be more durable than IS XL.

I dont have the best attitude about this but, this is all about how Omni tech and Inner Sphere tech can be fairly balanced and yet both keep their character.

"Omni tech is supposed to be better than Inner Sphere tech" doesnt work for multi player online game for over 100 reasons, not the least of which is how do they sell mech packs like the Marauder if its going to be a whipping boy for the clans? There are other arguements just as strong.

So whats fair?

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 September 2015 - 07:59 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Huh its half the weight compared to STD?

Plus its getting the major buff of surviving a side torso destruction

Why should it get the most health too? That makes no sense. Clan XL is supposed to be more durable than IS XL.

I missed the part about removing instadeath from IS XL engines... I assumed that the engine could be killed by EITHER critting the device itself or blowing out the side torso.

Even then, it still leaves a sour taste in my mouthhole...

[InRev]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Clan XL is supposed to be more durable than IS XL.

I think the pertinent question is: why?

Because TT? There was a lot of bad stuff in TT that doesn't translate to an FPS so that reason can safely be chucked out at this point, so that brings us back to: why? What do superior (as in not "different" but rather strictly better) Clan XLs add to the game?

[Johnny Z]

InRev, on 18 September 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

I think the pertinent question is: why?

Because TT? There was a lot of bad stuff in TT that doesn't translate to an FPS so that reason can safely be chucked out at this point, so that brings us back to: why? What do superior (as in not "different" but rather strictly better) Clan XLs add to the game?

I can answer that . Superior Omni tech adds easy mode to the game. I said before they need to add (easy mode) under the clan factions and mechs. Seriously. lol

How can one guild be expected to field more active players than another guild to compete, another of 100 rock solid reasons why 10 v 12 wont work. I can go on and on.

So Mechwarrior is 12 v 12 at the moment and Omni tech remains easy mode. Barely, but equipment like the XL makes it a joke.

So whats fair? Because doubling all side torso armor and internals of all Inner Sphere XL mechs is fair. More than fair but it gets the point across and isnt entirely inaccurate.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 September 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[Khobai]

InRev, on 18 September 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

I think the pertinent question is: why?

Because TT? There was a lot of bad stuff in TT that doesn't translate to an FPS so that reason can safely be chucked out at this point, so that brings us back to: why? What do superior (as in not "different" but rather strictly better) Clan XLs add to the game?

No. TT has nothing to do with it.

Because clan mechs have locked engine ratings and cant change their engine type. So they should have a slightly more durable engine (+10 health) as a trade off for those downsides.

The same applies to clan endo steel/ferro fibrous as well as clan weapons. They should have both advantages as well as disadvantages compared to their IS counterparts. Where PGI screwed up is making clan tech outright better rather than a sidegrade of sorts. If youre trying to balance Clan vs IS 1:1 then Clan tech cannot be superior.

The concept is known as asymmetrical balance.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 18 September 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

No. TT has nothing to do with it.

Because clan mechs have locked engine ratings and cant change their engine type. So they should have a slightly more durable engine (+10 health) as a trade off for those downsides.

But those Clan Battlemechs tho.

Also, you technically don't need higher health to emulate higher durability because they already have a smaller critslot size. Smaller size means a statistically lower chance of being critically hit, thus more durable even with the same health value.