240 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

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Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2015 - 05:58 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Why not just normalize xl's? If it takes a loss of 4 crits to destroy a clan xl just make it the same for the IS. So either a loss of 3 in one side (total loss of an ST) and one crit from the other side. Or taking 2 crits out of both ST's would result in death.

That seems much simpler to ...

Edited by DarthRevis, 18 September 2015 - 06:07 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

DarthRevis, on 18 September 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

Why not just normalize xl's? If it takes a loss of 4 crits to destroy a clan xl just make it the same for the IS. So either a loss of 3 in one side (total loss of an ST) and one crit from the other side. Or taking 2 crits out of both ST's would result in death.

That seems much simpler to ...

that does make Sense, but as things currently are Negatives At ST loss are already in MWO,
Engine Crits though, im not sure(From a coding stand point) if that would be easier to implement,

[Davers]

LT. HARDCASE, on 18 September 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'm a proponent for venturing away from the tabletop to balance MWO better, but removing IS death at the ST loss would pervert the game too far for my comfort.

Light Fusion Engines are the answer to the balance issue caused by the Clan XL engine, not making the IS XL something it never was and never will be.

IS XL that survives a ST loss obsoletes the STD and the LFE, like... who'd run anything else, ever?

But wouldn't LFE just replace both STD and XL engines? Sure, they are not as good as Clan XLs or as good at weight saving as IS XLs, but they would still be the best compromise of weight savings and survivability.

[Ultimax]

Dingo Red, on 18 September 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

I think we should start off just adding negatives to Clan XLs rather than trying to buff IS XLs. I'm a little concerned this will all just leave standard engines in the dust.

They can be buffed?

Buffing IS XL = TTK increased
Nerfing C XL = TTK reduced

The trend has been finding ways to increse TTK, not reduce it.


There have been a number of good ideas on how to improve STD engines from higher heat dissipation to +internal structure bonuses, etc.

[Davers]

Ultimatum X, on 18 September 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

They can be buffed?

Buffing IS XL = TTK increased
Nerfing C XL = TTK reduced

The trend has been finding ways to increse TTK, not reduce it.


There have been a number of good ideas on how to improve STD engines from higher heat dissipation to +internal structure bonuses, etc.

Despite what Russ says, I really don't think he wants to buff STD engines (or single heat sinks).

[wanderer]

OR, y'know we could just accept that there's no way to truly balance Clan with IS tech 1:1 and start figuring out a decent "multiplier" for things so we can actually balance things by how good they really are.

Seriously. Just stop trying to balance the truly unbalanced. Clan XL > IS XL, Clan endo/ferro > IS endo/ferro, Clan DHS > IS DHS, etc. etc. Rather than attempting system breaking "balancing" fixes that aren't, treat Clantech as the superior thing it is and work from there to slot them in solo/group/CW queues.

[FupDup]

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

OR, y'know we could just accept that there's no way to truly balance Clan with IS tech 1:1 and start figuring out a decent "multiplier" for things so we can actually balance things by how good they really are.

Seriously. Just stop trying to balance the truly unbalanced. Clan XL > IS XL, Clan endo/ferro > IS endo/ferro, Clan DHS > IS DHS, etc. etc. Rather than attempting system breaking "balancing" fixes that aren't, treat Clantech as the superior thing it is and work from there to slot them in solo/group/CW queues.

Ignoring the fallacy of your argument...there's still the issue of STD engine (some Clan Omnis do actually use it stock) vs Clam XL.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Davers, on 18 September 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

But wouldn't LFE just replace both STD and XL engines? Sure, they are not as good as Clan XLs or as good at weight saving as IS XLs, but they would still be the best compromise of weight savings and survivability.

The simple truth is, the STD is a dinosaur that is meant to be replaced. There's no reason to balance around such an archaic piece of tech.

In an MWO with the LFE, the XL is meant to be an option for mechwarriors who want all of the speed and weight savings they can get, added fragility be damned. The LFE would be far from obsoleting the XL. Heavies and Assaults may lean heavily to the LFE, but there are tons of Light and Medium builds that simply can't fit without an XL.

tl;dr - The XL's substantial weight savings over the LFE would keep it very viable, even for the 60-70 ton IS heavies.

[wanderer]

It's not a fallacy. Clantech was built to be better than IS tech from the ground up. That goes back to the very first tabletop TROs- Clantech is the top-tier gear, IS gear is inevitably inferior in some manner unless it has nothing even remotely similar (say, plasma cannons for Clanners vs. plasma rifles for IS, which despite the names are two very different weapon systems.)

And Clan STD vs IS STD is a null, as they're one of the few cases where a Clan 'Mech is equal in construction terms. Which isn't saying much. Unless it's a 'Mech with no endo, no ferro, standard engine, and no weapons whatsoever...it's got inherent advantages over it's IS cousins.

It's long past time to give up on the stupidity of "equality" between IS and Clan chassis. As it was, the closest we've had is the massively upquirked 'Mechs like the Thunderbolt which take hideous bumps upwards in weapons effectiveness vs. mere peon 'Mechs to be considered competitive.

[Andi Nagasia]

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

OR, y'know we could just accept that there's no way to truly balance Clan with IS tech 1:1 and start figuring out a decent "multiplier" for things so we can actually balance things by how good they really are.

Seriously. Just stop trying to balance the truly unbalanced. Clan XL > IS XL, Clan endo/ferro > IS endo/ferro, Clan DHS > IS DHS, etc. etc. Rather than attempting system breaking "balancing" fixes that aren't, treat Clantech as the superior thing it is and work from there to slot them in solo/group/CW queues.

ok first off Define what you mean by a (Multiplier)? and how is this (system breaking balancing)?

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

It's not a fallacy. Clantech was built to be better than IS tech from the ground up. That goes back to the very first tabletop TROs- Clantech is the top-tier gear, IS gear is inevitably inferior in some manner unless it has nothing even remotely similar (say, plasma cannons for Clanners vs. plasma rifles for IS, which despite the names are two very different weapon systems.)

And Clan STD vs IS STD is a null, as they're one of the few cases where a Clan 'Mech is equal in construction terms. Which isn't saying much. Unless it's a 'Mech with no endo, no ferro, standard engine, and no weapons whatsoever...it's got inherent advantages over it's IS cousins.

It's long past time to give up on the stupidity of "equality" between IS and Clan chassis. As it was, the closest we've had is the massively upquirked 'Mechs like the Thunderbolt which take hideous bumps upwards in weapons effectiveness vs. mere peon 'Mechs to be considered competitive.

your first problem this isnt TT no matter how much people want to use Stock TT Values they cant work,
Why? because MWO is a FPS, some things dont translate well from TT to a RealTime FPS,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[wanderer]

LT. HARDCASE, on 18 September 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

The simple truth is, the STD is a dinosaur that is meant to be replaced. There's no reason to balance around such an archaic piece of tech.

STD's are still in wide use all the way through the timeline, including the 3150's. They're still the most durable option short of a compact (which is heavier) engine setup.

[Sug]

Why does this need to be changed?

[wanderer]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

ok first off Define what you mean by a (Multiplier)? and how is this (system breaking balancing)?

We're supposed to have a Battle Value system. A Clan XL engine should give a higher BV compared to an IS one (or a standard of either tech base). Ditto endo/ferro/DHS. Any TT player can tell you that tonnage balance was a failure, and with the sheer number of critical space/tonnage advantages that you can't change short of breaking the construction system entirely, even a L/M/H/A MM system is going to be an ultimate failure.

Treat Clantech for what it is- the real penalty for Clantech has always been having fewer, more quality units on the field vs. the larger, lower-quality but numerically zerglike IS (but still good enough to kill Clanners, especially if they're allowed to apply those numbers. Clantech = higher quality and better performance for the tonnage dropped on the field.

[Andi Nagasia]

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

STD's are still in wide use all the way through the timeline, including the 3150's. They're still the most durable option short of a compact (which is heavier) engine setup.

your missing the Point, your still thinking this is a TT, Stock Out-loads do matter in MWO,
once IS get their LFE you will never(or Rarely) see STD Engines, its just what will happen with out Balancing,

Sug, on 18 September 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

Why does this need to be changed?

Because many believe that Clan XL engine is a main balancing problem when it comes to Clan Tech,
as long as Clan XL Engines Survive ST loss and IS XL Engines dont there will always be QQ about them,
so im trying to find a Middle ground so we can move forward with a Full Tech Balance,

wanderer, on 18 September 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

We're supposed to have a Battle Value system. A Clan XL engine should give a higher BV compared to an IS one (or a standard of either tech base). Ditto endo/ferro/DHS. Any TT player can tell you that tonnage balance was a failure, and with the sheer number of critical space/tonnage advantages that you can't change short of breaking the construction system entirely, even a L/M/H/A MM system is going to be an ultimate failure.

Treat Clantech for what it is- the real penalty for Clantech has always been having fewer, more quality units on the field vs. the larger, lower-quality but numerically zerglike IS (but still good enough to kill Clanners, especially if they're allowed to apply those numbers. Clantech = higher quality and better performance for the tonnage dropped on the field.

this isnt TT, and with no R&R their is no reason to Ever not take the better Tech, which is why Balance is needed,
battles in MWO will always be even 4v4 8v8 12v12, thats the Balance that has to be achieved in an Online game,

[Omi_]

I would much rather see IS Light Fusion Engines, which are the rough equivalent to Clan XL on the IS side.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hornsby, on 18 September 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

I would much rather see IS Light Fusion Engines, which are the rough equivalent to Clan XL on the IS side.

again there are problems with that,
1) Russ says the timeline isnt ganna move up untill roughly 6 months after steam release(so likely mid 2016),
2) LFE would most likely completely replace STD Engines, as they are the more, Optimal Engine Choice,
3) People will still complain sadly as Clan XLs are still better and offer more Weight Savings, ect,
but ya,

[FupDup]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

1) Russ says the timeline isnt ganna move up untill roughly 6 months after steam release(so likely mid 2016),

He confirmed that?

Did he say which specific year it would jump to?

[aniviron]

Ultimatum X, on 18 September 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Buffing IS XL = TTK increased
Nerfing C XL = TTK reduced

The trend has been finding ways to increse TTK, not reduce it.

I'm not sure how a system that lets every single IS mech take an additional 5-20 tons of weapons is something that will increase TTK?

This also ignores the problem that it obsoletes literally every single clan mech that doesn't have endo + ferro except the Dire Wolf. Why take the Nova when the Hunchback does everything it does but with endo and ferro? Why take a Mad Dog when the Catapult is a straight upgrade? Why take a Warhawk when the Stalker is already better even with a STD engine?

I'd rather see a nerf to clan XLs than see IS XLs survive a side loss. The problem is, I'm not sure what kind of nerf would make the TBR/HBR/SCR/EBJ/DWF worse without impacting the clan mechs that are already much worse off than their IS counterparts.

[FupDup]

aniviron, on 18 September 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure how a system that lets every single IS mech take an additional 5-20 tons of weapons is something that will increase TTK?

Well, the increase in firepower is partially offset by the IS XL mechs being tougher (depending on what kind of buffs Ulti is thinking of).

aniviron, on 18 September 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

This also ignores the problem that it obsoletes literally every single clan mech that doesn't have endo + ferro except the Dire Wolf. Why take the Nova when the Hunchback does everything it does but with endo and ferro? Why take a Mad Dog when the Catapult is a straight upgrade? Why take a Warhawk when the Stalker is already better even with a STD engine?

In these specific examples...

-Nova gets JJs and Clan lasers

-Mad Dog...alright I have to give you that one. To be fair, though, it's a kinda mediocre mech even today because of huge side torsos...

-Warhawk gets more agility and top speed, along with not running out of critical slots AS quickly as the Stalker (but still pretty quick). Also, Wubhawk is love and Wubhawk is life.

aniviron, on 18 September 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

I'd rather see a nerf to clan XLs than see IS XLs survive a side loss. The problem is, I'm not sure what kind of nerf would make the TBR/HBR/SCR/EBJ/DWF worse without impacting the clan mechs that are already much worse off than their IS counterparts.

The answer is that there are no possible adjustments that could fulfill that criterion. There are also no buffs to IS engines that wouldn't have unintended consequences, either.

Engines really are the biggest clusterfudge for balancing in the entire construction system, because EVERY mech gets hit by them. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of situation. There is no right way out, no magic bullet...

Edited by FupDup, 18 September 2015 - 07:03 PM.