240 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

Dingo Red, on 18 September 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

I don't really think it'd be a big choice, the vast majority of people would still take the XL.

If IS XL is going to survive loosing a torso, then I'd want to see really high speed and heat negatives that ensure you're only fighting on a sub-par level, bringing both your mobility and firepower down.

it would have to be turn instead of speed.


if you could only turn like a dire wolf after losing sidetorso; then THAT's a tough call.

how you gonna spread? how you gonna aim before the enemy?

likewise arm speed also needs to go to the gutter when clanner loses ST

[Brody319]

They should just add Light Fusion Engines.

[ShinobiHunter]

I believe Pariah Devalis suggested just giving all IS mechs ST armor quirks. Makes them more survivable with XL and very tanky with STD engines.

[El Bandito]

Dingo Red, on 18 September 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

I think we should start off just adding negatives to Clan XLs rather than trying to buff IS XLs. I'm a little concerned this will all just leave standard engines in the dust.

Why not? I always thought of XL as an upgrade rather than sidegrade. Kinda like relationship between SHS and DHS.

LT. HARDCASE, on 18 September 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

Light Fusion Engines are the answer to the balance issue caused by the Clan XL engine, not making the IS XL something it never was and never will be.

IS XL that survives a ST loss obsoletes the STD and the LFE, like... who'd run anything else, ever?

Brody319, on 18 September 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

They should just add Light Fusion Engines.

LFE does not address the balance. A 300 rating Clan XL will still save 6.5 tons more than IS LFE. That's enough tonnage advantage to fit a CLPL or CERPPC. LFE is poor man's Clan XL.

As is, the proposed IS XL is also poor man's Clan XL, since 3 slots, coupled with larger IS AC20 means no chance of putting AC20 on the ST. Not to mention the higher speed loss of the IS XL over the Clan XL, making the Clan XL still fat out better in every stats. As PGI will no doubt remove a lot of quirks from IS mechs to counterbalance this change (which I approve), I want them to make it so both XL engine have downsides to them when compared to each other--not just Clan side being right out better.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 September 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[zagibu]

Mazzyplz, on 18 September 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

it would have to be turn instead of speed.

Losing turn speed would not bother most of the fire support mechs (which are often those with XLs, because they hang back anyway and need the tonnage for gauss + PPCs). It would also not bother the mechs that take an XL already.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 18 September 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Well, the IS XL would still be mandatory on lights and optional on a few mediums...STD engines however would probably die out.

Normalize the isXL and cXL (60% and 75% effectiveness, extended to Speed and Agility), give the STD (IS and Clam alike) significant structure buffs.

Along the lines of +20-30CT and +15-20STs. That might even make a Clam Battlemech take an STD...maybe. KingFisher and StoopingHawks alike would like that (if ever introduced)



I like that solution.

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 September 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[Pjwned]

My thoughts are that power creeping IS XL engines to survive a side torso loss is a bad idea, and while there might be some good solutions that could work out pretty well, I still think that's the wrong direction to go in.

Mystere, on 18 September 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Side Torso Loss on IS XL = Death.
Side Torso Loss on Clan XL = -20% Speed. Second Side Torso Loss = Death.

Those or implement a better critical hit system.

Exactly this, this would work fine and it's what I've been saying for a while now. I suppose it's possible that an extra 20% speed loss penalty (on top of the existing heat sink penalty) might not be enough still, but that's a really big maybe because a) the mech still needs to be functional in combat, especially given that omnimechs have no choice of engine, and b) 20% heatsink loss and 20% speed loss is pretty damn noticeable.

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

people would still complain about Clan Survivable XL engines,
which is why i proposed this Compromise which both sides benefit,

This is why light fusion engines should be implemented, so that IS mechs have an option for clan XL functionality, just not at the same advantage for tonnage.

Edited by Pjwned, 18 September 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[Golden Vulf]

Do IS players want more durable XLs because they want to have a shield side but also take an XL for more guns?

I'd be okay with whatever as long as clans also got universal hardpoint inflation on omnimechs. Most clan guns are evenly spread out amongst their arms, so besides a few outliers, makes it hard to run shield sides.

Also if you guys are all fine with breaking lore, unlock endo steel for the Summoner.

[Davegt27]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

This Idea is Very Simple,

IS XL Engines have 3 Engine Crits in their STs,
Clan XL Engines have 2 Engine Crits in their STs,


=XL Balance Concept=
Make IS XL Engines Survivable on ST loss,
then institute a -10%Speed Quirk per lost Engine Crit,
-
IS XL Engine has 3 Engine Crits in its ST,
so on ST loss an IS XL would gain a -30%Speed Quirk ,
-
Clan XL Engine has 2 Engine Crits in its ST,
so on ST loss an IS XL would gain a -20%Speed Quirk ,
-
Losing both STs on an XL Engine still results in death,




there is a Fear of STD Engines becoming useless with this,
so if this is tested in the PTS and STD do seem to lose Viability,
the Speed Penalty could always be increased to -15% instead of -10%,
(IS losing 45% Speed on ST loss)(Clan losing 30% Speed on ST loss)


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit-Spelling,
Edit2- STD Notation

Anything that keeps Mechs in the fight

Fighting each other sounds good to me

I would recommend less radical changes because people are resistant to change so they would have a cow if it was too radical

I favor subtle boost to Mech durability (basically you want people to have a chance to use their weapons before they go down)

[LT. HARDCASE]

zagibu, on 18 September 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

Only those who rely on speed and don't have an XL anyway, which is very few builds.

No one would choose STD engines, and you know that.

[Impyrium]

Mazzyplz, on 18 September 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

it would have to be turn instead of speed.


if you could only turn like a dire wolf after losing sidetorso; then THAT's a tough call.

how you gonna spread? how you gonna aim before the enemy?

likewise arm speed also needs to go to the gutter when clanner loses ST

Well, you are buffing from 'dead' to 'not dead' so there's going to have to be some pretty significant negatives.

El Bandito, on 18 September 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

Why not? I always thought of XL as an upgrade rather than sidegrade. Kinda like relationship between SHS and DHS.

Neither of those things are very good for the game IMO. For one it's very unintuitive and confusing for new players. It also just feels... a bit too linear, 'one must upgrade straight away to XL and DHS for this to be effective in the slightest'. Wouldn't it be more interesting if they were viable other options and provided a different option to 'mech building?

[Tarl Cabot]

Golden Vulf, on 18 September 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Do IS players want more durable XLs because they want to have a shield side but also take an XL for more guns?

I'd be okay with whatever as long as clans also got universal hardpoint inflation on omnimechs. Most clan guns are evenly spread out amongst their arms, so besides a few outliers, makes it hard to run shield sides.

Also if you guys are all fine with breaking lore, unlock endo steel for the Summoner.

I think most are missing the point. Majority of IS mechs are asymmetric in the weapon payload, with most weapons on the right side of the mech.

As many will agree, in MWO speed is life, even for the assaults. Many IS mechs do not have the amount of hard points their their respective Clan mechs have, and most Clan mechs, depending on omnipods, have weapons on both sides.

I would be for the additional of the LFE. As for making stock engines irrelevant, do anyone actually purchase stock engines or simply reuse engines removed from stock IS mechs?

That would also mean some of the quirks could be reduced. I would also like to see penalties added to the Heat Scale at 2 or 3 different threshold marks but that is another discussion .

Many of us already run IS XL engines, aware of the possibility of death, simply for the speed more than for the payload. But if I could run an XL, and knowing I could still be of some use if a lose a side torso with the weapon payload, heck yeah!!

The other side of it is a bigger paycheck due to doing more damage to a live mech.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Normalize the isXL and cXL (60% and 75% penalties, extended to Speed and Agility)...

It's one thing to add an extra penalty to XL engines, but that's pretty freaking severe.

As an example number, a 75% speed penalty would bring an Ice Ferret down to 45 KPH (assuming speed tweak)...and that's the fastest Clan Omnimech we have at the moment (tied with Hankyu). All the others would be even more crawly (e.g. 17 kph Daishi).

I'm not opposed to nerfing the Clan XL, but 75% is like the hand of God himself smashing you into the ground. I don't think that even the Nerfinator's Paulgorithms could come up with a value that huge.

Edited by FupDup, 18 September 2015 - 05:24 PM.

[El Bandito]

Dingo Red, on 18 September 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Neither of those things are very good for the game IMO. For one it's very unintuitive and confusing for new players. It also just feels... a bit too linear, 'one must upgrade straight away to XL and DHS for this to be effective in the slightest'. Wouldn't it be more interesting if they were viable other options and provided a different option to 'mech building?

A noble intention to be sure, and I also agree with you. However, implementing such things is above PGI's Balance Department's knowledge. I'm dead serious here.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 September 2015 - 05:30 PM.

[Golden Vulf]

Howabout when an IS mech loses an XL side torso they lose 50% speed and their targetting reticle disappears and they have 0% convergence?

Also their IFF stops working.






Really we just need light fusion engines.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 18 September 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 18 September 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

It's one thing to add an extra penalty to XL engines, but that's pretty freaking severe.

As an example number, a 75% speed penalty would bring an Ice Ferret down to 45 KPH (assuming speed tweak)...and that's the fastest Clan Omnimech we have at the moment (tied with Hankyu). All the others would be even more crawly (e.g. 17 kph Daishi).

I'm not opposed to nerfing the Clan XL, but 75% is like the hand of God himself smashing you into the ground. I don't think that even the Nerfinator's Paulgorithms could come up with a value that huge.

That is to say, 75% and 60% performance, 40% and 25% penalties.


Meh

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 September 2015 - 05:37 PM.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

That is to say, 75% and 60% performance, 40% and 25% penalties.

Meh

Wording makes all the difference.

For Clam XL I still wouldn't go worse than 20%, if even that (but perhaps also mix in things like lower agility and slower energy cooldowns).

I'm still torn on IS Excel engines.

[Cyborne Elemental]

IF Russ decides to go that way, IS XL need some serious penalties on torso destruction.

The point is not to obsolete the STD engines.

Same deal will have to happen on LFE's when we get em.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

That is to say, 75% and 60% performance, 40% and 25% penalties.


Meh

40% and 25% is fine by me.

[Mcgral18]

Mister D, on 18 September 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

IF Russ decides to go that way, IS XL need some serious penalties on torso destruction.

The point is not to obsolete the STD engines.

Same deal will have to happen on LFE's when we get em.

That's why you buff STDs, significantly.

I'm tempted to go flat buff (rather than tonnage scaling) so Lights and Meds get BIG buffs, to the still significant boost Assaults would get.