240 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

In this example, the Loki and Cauldron Born share most of the ingredients that the Mad Cat uses, and thus they are also top-level gundams (just to a slightly lower extent).

And the main ingredient is the overpowered lasers/gauss. Not CXL. A CXL has never killed a single IS mech.

Its the overpowered lasers/gauss that put clan mechs way over the top.

nerfing CXL with a huge speed penalty doesnt solve the real problem which is laser vomit and gauss.

You want to balance clan mechs better with IS mechs? The place to start is the weapons. Not CXL.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Brody319]

Give the IS LFE and some ER-Medium lasers.
balance will come.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

And the main ingredient is the overpowered lasers. Not CXL.

Its the overpowered lasers that put clan mechs way over the top.

nerfing CXL with a huge speed penalty doesnt solve the real problem which is laser vomit.

Since all Clan gundams can use Clam lazors, but not all Clam gundams are over the top, then there are other factors in play here.

For those three heavies in particular:

• Optimal engine size
  
• Clan XL
  
• Clan guns/equipment
  
• Endo + Ferro (except Loki)
  
• Good quantity and composition of hardpoints
  
• Adequate hitboxes or better
  
• High hardpoints (mostly Cauldron and Loki)
  
• Heavy class, heavier than 60 tons (heavy is overall best class if the other variables are equal)

If we invented a new non-canon Clan Omnimech with these same attributes, it would be just as good. Or there might be a few canon examples available, like the Night Gyr...

[Khobai]

Quote

Since all Clan gundams can use Clam lazors, but not all Clam gundams are over the top

Yes its a variety of different factors that contribute to overpoweredness. I already explained that two posts ago.

But its the clan weapons that are the biggest factor by far.

CXL, FF/ES, good hitboxes, etc... NONE of those things kill other mechs. They are defensive in nature.

What kills other mechs are the clan weapons.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Yes its a variety of different factors that contribute to overpoweredness. I already explained that two posts ago.

But its the clan weapons that are the biggest factor by far.

CXL, FF/ES, good hitboxes, etc... NONE of those things kill other mechs. They are defensive in nature.

Defense and mobility are still important qualities that can make or break a mech's PowerLevel, even if not weighted as heavily as pure firepower.

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

What kills other mechs are the clan weapons.

No, magic missiles do.

[Khobai]

Quote

Defense and mobility are still important qualities that can make or break a mech's PowerLevel, even if not weighted as heavily as pure firepower.

So basically you agree with me. That firepower is weighted more then other factors.

So then logically weapon balance is the place to start...


CXL isnt killing anyone. Its not looney toons where im dropping my CXL off a cliff to smush IS mechs.

Its the weapons that kill other mechs plain and simple. So when trying to balance Clan vs IS the weapons should be the #1 priority for balance. Not engines lol.

Weapon balance, weapon hardpoints/omnipod configurations, weapon quirks, etc.. should all be much higher for balance prioritization than anything else at this initial stage of rebalancing.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

And the main ingredient is the overpowered lasers/gauss. Not CXL. A CXL has never killed a single IS mech.

Its the overpowered lasers/gauss that put clan mechs way over the top.

nerfing CXL with a huge speed penalty doesnt solve the real problem which is laser vomit and gauss.

You want to balance clan mechs better with IS mechs? The place to start is the weapons. Not CXL.

Ignoring how much the cXL facilitates those weapons (and heatsinks) at practically no cost for all the tonnage saved--that is dumb.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Not enough of a penalty to what? Timberwolves and Direwolves?

Trust me when a Kitfox loses its side torso theres enough of a penalty there to make the Kitfox wish it had its side torso back. The Kitfox isnt like a direwolf that can lose a side torso and still have more firepower than an Atlas.

The problem is youre just looking at the 2-3 overpowered clan mechs and trying to justify a blanket nerf on ALL clan mechs because of it. Not all clan mechs are as bad as timberwolfs and direwolves. Not all clan mechs need to be nerfed as badly as youre proposing.

Thats why selectively nerfing the elements that are overpowered is always better than a blanket nerf that targets everything blindly. You think the timberwolf and direwolf are overpowered? Fine lets nerf them specifically. But leave the underpowered clan mechs alone.


That whole line of reasoning is really flawed. Its like saying "Stalkers are overpowered" "NERF ALL STD ENGINES"

The CXL isnt what inherently makes a clan mech overpowered. There are plenty of examples of clan mechs that use CXL and ARNT overpowered and are in fact inferior to their IS equivalents (i.e. Kitfox/Puma/MistLynx/etc...).

What makes a clan mech overpowered isnt CXL but rather a combination of multiple factors ranging from omnipod configurations/hardpoints, locked equipment/podspace/FF/ES, engine rating, hitboxes/scaling, and more. Overpoweredness is a product of many different elements coming together just right. Does CXL contribute as one of those elements? certainly. But its not the sole contributor by a long shot.

I dont understand this whole crusade against CXL. They really arnt contributing all that much to the balance problem. The much bigger problems are weapon balance and mech balance.

You are comparing an apple to an apple. The Kitfox with a blown off side torso compared to an XL inner shpere light with a bown off torso is simple math.The Kitfox is still running the I.S. mech is dead. The dead mech can not capture objectives provide targeting data for LRMs,scout or even simply get in the way of the enemy firing on friendlies.All of these actions are useful and assume the mech in question is 100% disarmed.Of course a side torso cored clan mech still has weapons so it can partisipate in dealing damage as well.The omni pod mechanics allow for optimizing Omnimech hardpoints to put weapons on both sides of the mech thus reducing the chances of losing one side and being disarmed ( Many I.S. mechs do not have this option and are frequently slanted to the right side for hardpoints)

This is HUGE advantage over simply being dead.

And I would not even think of nerfing over altering.

I would suggest that we remove the 3 engine hits is a kill rule.It is a carry over from Table top and may not suit the needs of a video game.

Instead we go with a accumulating penalty system for engine damage that effects all mechs equally.

This can be accumulated speed penalty or accumulating heat build up either seems reasonable but if I had my choice I would swap one table top rule for another.

In the table top game a mech with an engine hit would build 5 additional heat per turn.If the engine ever recieved 3 engine critical hits the mech was destroyed.

PGI took the three hits to kill rule but left the heat penalty rule behind.

We could also go with a combo rule

4 engine crits = destroyed
+ 10% heat per engine hit up to the fourth ( the 4th is a destroyed mech)

This would mean the clan advantage would be losing a side torso would build 20% more heat and the clan mech is still destroyed when it loses both side torsos or takes two additional engine crit hits.Compared to the I.S. mechs building 30% penalty heat and being destroyed when the engine takes one additional critical hit.

The clan engine is still a bit more robust but it does not grant the same disparity in mech survival that XL engines do now.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

So basically you agree with me. That firepower is weighted more then other factors.

So then logically weapon balance is the place to start...


CXL isnt killing anyone. Its not looney toons where im dropping my CXL off a cliff to smush IS mechs.

Its the weapons that kill other mechs plain and simple. So when trying to balance Clan vs IS the weapons should be the #1 priority for balance. Not engines lol.

Weapon balance, weapon hardpoints/omnipod configurations, weapon quirks, etc.. should all be much higher for balance prioritization than anything else at this initial stage of rebalancing.

You are missing the big picture of the CXL.

A clan XLis not a death sentence like an I.S. XL is a mech that lives longer dishes damage longer.Can you argue against this point?

Sure the clan mech is down a side torso and an arm but it is still up and fighting.Because of omni pods it is highly unlikely that any omnimech has all it's guns on one side.The clan pilot has the option to minimize this risk by selecting omni pods that allow for hardpoints to be spread over both sides of the mech.

So a clan mech can take an XL engine and not be anywhere near as fragile as it's inner sphere counterpart.This of course means fewer I.S. mechs will equip XL engines because of the fragility that comes with it.

It's a no brainer for a clan mech to take the XL it's a hard choice for the I.S. mech pilot."Do I get more firepower and sacrifice survival?" The clan pilot meanwhile has this quandry "How many and what kinds of extra guns do I load on because I have an XL that does not compromise my survival."

The end results are a clan mech has more extra tonnage to load up disballanced weapons because of the CXL.So even if every clan weapon was identical to an I.S. counterpart the clan mechs would still be overpowered because of the CXL providing more tonnage for weapons while not also compromising survival.Or an I.S. counterpart with an XL being equal in firepower but significantly easyer to destroy because of the XL engine.Either way the cause of the dispairity is the CXL.

[Sjorpha]

Brody319, on 19 September 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Give the IS LFE and some ER-Medium lasers.
balance will come.

First of all LFE is balanced against IS std and XL, not against clan XL. It sits between IS standard and XL in terms of weight and durability while the clan XL remains a strictly superior engine.

So the introduction of LFEs wouldn't balance jack ****, at best it adds another build option and at worst it obseletes existing IS engines without solving the faction balance.

And second introducing better equipment that obseletes old equipment is a terrible idea in general, because the old equipment is then even more obselete and unbalanced. When designing online games you need to keep all options in the game viable choices at all times, otherwise you might as well remove them from the game.

I'm all for adding new tech, but that new equipment should be balanced against the existing equipment and ALL IS tech should be balanced against ALL clan tech. So that every single item in the game is useful at least from time to time.

And:

Balancing Clan XL against IS XL by introducing any number of penalties to a ST loss isn't actually possible. Because no penalty can balance against death. That approach is a complete dead end.

And actually, even if you made clan XL die on ST loss it would still be superior to IS XL, because the IS XL takes up more crit slots.

Therefore the approach to balancing these engines needs to be something that puts them on parity as equipment, so that if you had the choice between an IS XL and a clan XL it should be a hard choice to make.

The best approach to a problem like that is to make the engines MORE different from each other, so that they are good at different things. Keep the clan XLs durability and make the IS XL lighter, or more agile, or something else. In short, not some futile attempt at bringing them closer but real advantages and drawbacks to each one that adds up to parity.

Edited by Sjorpha, 19 September 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You are comparing an apple to an apple. The Kitfox with a blown off side torso compared to an XL inner shpere light with a bown off torso is simple math.The Kitfox is still running the I.S. mech is dead.

except the kitfox is slow and scaled like a medium.

so no its not an apple to an apple

if the kitfox was the size of a jenner rather than the size of a stormcrow and moved 150kph then you might be right. but in this case you happen to be wrong. very wrong.

Despite using CXL the kitfox is still far worse than the majority of IS light mechs. CXL is not whats making clan mechs overpowered.

Quote

You are missing the big picture of the CXL.

A clan XLis not a death sentence like an I.S. XL is a mech that lives longer dishes damage longer.Can you argue against this point?

Nope im not missing the big picture. Im one of the people advocating that ISXL should be able to survive a side torso destruction.

I would rather buff the ISXL than nerf the CXL. I dont see CXL as being problemetic anymore if ISXL has the same capability.

I do however see clan weapons being problematic since IS dont have the same capability without insane weapon quirks. And between overpowered clan weapons and overpowered IS quirks, TTK has gotten pathetically short. Thats what I see as the biggest balance problem.

Quote

The end results are a clan mech has more extra tonnage to load up disballanced weapons because of the CXL.

Not really. Theres too many players here that are completely misinformed on the subject. They think CXL is doing things its not really doing. Its not actually giving most clan mechs more free tonnage than IS mechs.

The whole reason most clan mechs are FORCED into laser vomit is because they dont have enough tonnage to use anything BUT lasers due to their HUGE CXL engines consuming most of their free space. Engine weigh increases exponentially with engine rating, so clan mechs pay for their high engine ratings by having their engines consume a large portion of their tonnage.

Its a complete misnomer that clan mechs get extra tonnage from CXL. They dont. They do however get completely overpowered energy weapons that weigh almost nothing. Hence why laser vomit is so common. And clan mechs do get some extra tonnage from the fact certain weapons like clan gauss weigh much less than their IS equivalent. But that has nothing to do with the CXL. That has to do with weapon balance.

The only two clan mechs that actually get enough free tonnage to use anything besides laser-dependent loadouts are the direwolf and to a lesser extent the ebon jaguar. Even the Timberwolf has to rely almost entirely on lasers and cant really take more than one ballistic weapon even if it wants to.

Again the majority of balance problems arnt caused by CXL. Theyre caused by clan weapons being too effective for how little they weigh. And IS mechs needing insane weapon quirks just to keep up.

Quote

Ignoring how much the cXL facilitates those weapons (and heatsinks) at practically no cost for all the tonnage saved--that is dumb.

Thats where youre wrong. The tonnage isnt "saved" its sunk into the massively high rated CXL engines that are forced on most clan mechs.

375XL is far from the most efficient engine for a Timberwolf. Timberwolves would be far far deadlier if they could use smaller engines because they would have that much more tonnage for weapons.

CXL isnt facilating clan mechs to have more tonnage. Because most clan mechs have LESS free tonnage than their IS counterparts due to being forced to use very heavy engines. Thats why most clan mechs have to spam lasers because theyre low tonnage weapons.

Again the problem is not CXL but rather the fact that clan weapons weigh too little for how effective they are. Balance clan weapons better and allow ISXL survive a side torso destruction and youll see a lot of the Clan vs IS problems go away.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

except the kitfox is slow and scaled like a medium.

so no its not an apple to an apple

if the kitfox was the size of a jenner rather than the size of a stormcrow and moved 150kph then you might be right. but in this case you happen to be wrong. very wrong.

Despite using CXL the kitfox is still far worse than the majority of IS light mechs. CXL is not whats making clan mechs overpowered.

Are you expecting the Kitfox to be an Arctic Cheetah? because it's not.And in that I am very very right.The function of the Kitfox is to be close support to larger mechs.In this role it excels because it only needs to be fast enough to repossition within it's own battle line while providing defense from enemy lights providing AMS and ECM support or finishing escaping yet mauled enemies.The Kitfox does what an Inner Shpere light medium does except it doesn't take up a slot used by the clans undeniably superior medium mechs.

A more ballanced compareson would be an FS9A Firestarter vs an Arctic Cheetah. try and argue that one.Anyone can take the worst of one side and put it up for compareson against the best of the other side.It's still a poor argument.

[Johnny Z]

One of the worste things about Mechwarrior Online is the insta boom of the Inner Sphere XL. That the Omni XL is twice as durable is only part of why the Inner Sphere XL sucks. It is only part of the reason why so many argue for it to remain cheese.

Going down in one or even seeing a nearly fresh mech go down to XL side torso loss is lame. These mechs are supposed to be durable and the CT has the armor to put that across mostly. Side torso's dont.

If some players want the Inner Sphere to be stuck with this lame mechanic it isnt even about balance. Because thats not even close to being balanced at all.

So feel free to check this topic out and other topics to see players who just want Mechwarrior Online to suck.

By the way, yes this is the punchline for this joke of a topic.

Shutdown on IS XL side torso loss should be added asap instead of match insta end. Or some other reasonable alternative, asap.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 September 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

Nope im not missing the big picture. Im one of the people advocating that ISXL should be able to survive a side torso destruction.

I would rather buff the ISXL than nerf the CXL. I dont see CXL as being problemetic anymore if ISXL has the same capability.

I do however see clan weapons being problematic since IS dont have the same capability without insane weapon quirks. And between overpowered clan weapons and overpowered IS quirks, TTK has gotten pathetically short. Thats what I see as the biggest balance problem.

IN this I agree completely I also avocate removing the three engine hits = destroyed rule in favor of a accumulating heat penalty for each engine hit recieved that applies to all engine types.

And you are 100% correct the CXL would not be problematic if the IS XL also had the same capability of surviving a side torso destruction.That would be a massive step towards ballance because if both engine typs had this ability both factions would have an equal choice in equiping an XL.But as it stands now this is not the case the clans get a highly benificial engine upgrade while the IS has to make the hard choice between tonnage or survival.

[Andi Nagasia]

Guys lets remember that these Changes are based on the assumption that Tech is already balanced,
NOT that this will be used as the Only form of Tech Balance, with that in mind i have offered the 2 options,
(-20%-30% Speed Penalty with IS-XL survival)&(bonus Structure on STD-CT and IS-XL-STs)

Edit-
I just want to State that i Completely agree with Khobai,
Faction Weapon Balance should be covered Before any form of Faction Equipment Balance,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 September 2015 - 03:33 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 September 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

Guys lets remember that these Changes are based on the assumption that Tech is already balanced,
NOT that this will be used as the Only form of Tech Balance, with that in mind i have offered the 2 options,
(-20%-30% Speed Penalty with IS-XL survival)&(bonus Structure on STD-CT and IS-XL-STs)

Yep. There should be a penalty for any XL that losses a side torso and therefor part of the mechs engine, because this is supposed to be a mech sim. The numbers above look good.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 September 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[AEgg]

Lykaon, on 19 September 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

You are missing the big picture of the CXL.

A clan XLis not a death sentence like an I.S. XL is a mech that lives longer dishes damage longer.Can you argue against this point?

Sure the clan mech is down a side torso and an arm but it is still up and fighting.Because of omni pods it is highly unlikely that any omnimech has all it's guns on one side.The clan pilot has the option to minimize this risk by selecting omni pods that allow for hardpoints to be spread over both sides of the mech.

So a clan mech can take an XL engine and not be anywhere near as fragile as it's inner sphere counterpart.This of course means fewer I.S. mechs will equip XL engines because of the fragility that comes with it.

It's a no brainer for a clan mech to take the XL it's a hard choice for the I.S. mech pilot."Do I get more firepower and sacrifice survival?" The clan pilot meanwhile has this quandry "How many and what kinds of extra guns do I load on because I have an XL that does not compromise my survival."

The end results are a clan mech has more extra tonnage to load up disballanced weapons because of the CXL.So even if every clan weapon was identical to an I.S. counterpart the clan mechs would still be overpowered because of the CXL providing more tonnage for weapons while not also compromising survival.Or an I.S. counterpart with an XL being equal in firepower but significantly easyer to destroy because of the XL engine.Either way the cause of the dispairity is the CXL.

Clan pilots don't get to choose, though. That's why we can't make the clan XL notably worse.

For clans, the XL IS the standard. Nerfing it is identical to nerfing the armor values of all clan mechs.

So we can't do that, at least not to a hugely significant extent, without serious repercussions (i.e. many clan heavies and assaults become terrible).

On the IS side, choosing between STD and XL is already a valid decision. You have a real choice between surviveability and weight savings. So we can't buff the XL without seriously downplaying that.

So why not do what everyone already knows we need to do, penalize the few clan chassis that are overperformers compared to everything else?

[Johnny Z]

AEgg, on 19 September 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Clan pilots don't get to choose, though. That's why we can't make the clan XL notably worse.

For clans, the XL IS the standard. Nerfing it is identical to nerfing the armor values of all clan mechs.

So we can't do that, at least not to a hugely significant extent, without serious repercussions (i.e. many clan heavies and assaults become terrible).

On the IS side, choosing between STD and XL is already a valid decision. You have a real choice between surviveability and weight savings. So we can't buff the XL without seriously downplaying that.

So why not do what everyone already knows we need to do, penalize the few clan chassis that are overperformers compared to everything else?

There isnt a valid choice for Inner Sphere mechs. They either run an XL because they have no choice, as in the case of lights, or dont if there is a choice. Some may run an XL if they can expect to avoid enemy fire on heavier mechs only.

I seen a fesh Locust go down to a Streak Crow on my team in the public queue for the first time yesterday in one salvo.... How some Omni pilots can publicly argue there is anything fair about that is beyond me and I simply cant believe it. Seriously?

I am not making this up, seen it for the first time yesterday although have had it happen to me in my Commando numerous times. It is a brutal sight for this game.

On top of all this some players have the nerve to argue there should be no penalty at all for the Streak Crow that loses a side torso? This cant be serious.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 September 2015 - 03:52 PM.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

Thats where youre wrong. The tonnage isnt "saved" its sunk into the massively high rated CXL engines that are forced on most clan mechs.

375XL is far from the most efficient engine for a Timberwolf. Timberwolves would be far far deadlier if they could use smaller engines because they would have that much more tonnage for weapons.

CXL isnt facilating clan mechs to have more tonnage. Because most clan mechs have LESS free tonnage than their IS counterparts due to being forced to use very heavy engines. Thats why most clan mechs have to spam lasers because theyre low tonnage weapons.

Lets do some actual number crunching

The Timberwolf has 27.5 tons of podspace

The Orion has 31.5 tons of payload because it will not be using a large XL engine it will be using a std 300 engine and endo steel to avoid being to fragile.

The orion has 4 more tons than the Timber wolf (already underwhelming)

So we put a pair of ER Large Lasers on each mech.

The orion has used 10 tons 4 crits and 2 energy hardpoints
The Timberwolf has used 8 tons 2 crits and 2 energy hardpoints.

The orion is still up 2 tons.

Now we put in 2 SRM6s with 2 tons ammo on each mech.

The orion has spent 8 tons 6 crits and 2 missile hardpoints
The Timberwolf has spent 5 tons 4 crits and 2 missile hardpoints

The Orion is now down in the tonnage race with the timberwolf up one ton.

We now put on an LB10X with 1.5 tons ammo on each mech.

Orion spends 12.5 tons 8 crits and 1 ballistic hardpoint
Timberwolf spends 11.5 tons 7 crits 1 ballistic hardpoint

The timber wolf now has 3 tons left the orion zero

Now we need to also address that the top speeds are

89.1 for the Timberwolf
73.1 for the Orion

The Timberwolf also has 15 DHS the Orion has 10 DHS

So when all is said and done the Timberwolf has 8 more tons and it's faster.

[Khobai]

Quote

Lets do some actual number crunching

The Timberwolf has 27.5 tons of podspace

The Orion has 31.5 tons of payload because it will not be using a large XL engine it will be using a std 300 engine and endo steel to avoid being to fragile.

Quote

So when all is said and done the Timberwolf has 8 more tons and it's faster.

Which completely proves my whole point.

The Orion has more free tonnage than the Timberwolf before any weapons are added.

Its not until after weapons are added that the Timberwolf comes out ahead.

The overpowered clan weapons are where clan mechs are getting their extra tonnage from. It isnt coming from the CXL. If anything the CXL is forcing clan mechs to spend more tonnage than they want to on an inefficiently rated engine thats much faster than they need.

Its the clan weapons that need balancing the most. Not the engines.

Quote

Are you expecting the Kitfox to be an Arctic Cheetah? because it's not.And in that I am very very right.The function of the Kitfox is to be close support to larger mechs

Um the Arctic Cheetah has ECM too. It can also support larger mechs. And its better than the Kitfox in pretty much every regard.

Im sorry but the Kitfox is just bad. Its a bad light thats poorly scaled and slow. Its side torsos are absurdly easy to pinpoint and it only takes one alphastrike to blow out its side torso. Its a 30 ton mech it should be the same size as a spider not the size of a 55 ton mech. And it doesnt necessarily have to be that fast, but it certainly shouldnt lose the speed it does have from a side torso blowout. Mechs like the kitfox shouldnt have to suffer because other mechs like the arctic cheetah are too good.


The whole goal of rebalancing should be to make the Kitfox and Arctic Cheetah equal (both are 30 ton clan mechs) with neither being overpowered.

The Arctic Cheetah doesnt really have to worry about a side torso blowout because its proper scaling and speed allow it to more evenly distribute damage. While the Kitfox which is slow, and the size of a medium mech, and doesnt distribute damage well constantly has to fear a side torso blowout costing it a good portion of what little speed it does have.

So if you were to implement a speed nerf for a side torso blowout youd basically be crippling the Kitfox and subjecting it to speeds of like 70-80kph the first time it gets hit. Which is a JOKE for a light mech. It wouldnt even be able to retreat at that point. There would be absolutely no way you could properly balance the Kit Fox with other lights if you implemented something as punitive as that.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 05:11 PM.