240 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Jonathan Paine, on 19 September 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

Khobai: the kitfox, properly used, will still beat any IS light in a one on one. This had been thoroughly tested. I'd be happy to see IS and Clan balanced by numbers or tonnage, but since PGI had shown no inclination to do so we are left with a completely unbalanced game were Clan mechs that won the engine/endo lottery dominate every class of mech.

At a minimum we need to see either IS surviving loss of a side torso, or heavy penalties to Clan that loses a side. If clanners want to change engines, endo, ferro, crits, force them to use IS tech. Enjoy your clunky IS engine with fat dhs and endo that eats all your crits. In return I want clan weapons on my IS mechs. Hand over that silly extra light gauss rifle right now!

Im glad you said it. I feel bad for Omni pilots that announce how pathetic pilots they are by saying Inner Spere lights are stronger than Clan lights.

Any clan mech can boat Cstreaks and insta win vrs any Inner Sphere light. My grandma could win that fight, yet daily Clan players announcing they have never played this game before saying Inner Sphere lights are better than Clan lights.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 September 2015 - 12:32 AM.

[Docta Pain]

This is a bad idea.

[Johnny Z]

Another falsehood heard daily is that Clans are better at long range and Inner Sphere are better at short range.

Fact is Clans own up close and will take any opportinuty to get there, where Clans lose is at extreme ranges vrs the Inner Sphere ERLL. That is the one weapon that is better than anything the Omni's can mount. The short IS duration vrs Omni long duration CERLL makes a poke fight an Inner Sphere win.

Why the same false line is heard so often on these forums is beyond me.

[Duke Nedo]

Docta Pain, on 20 September 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

This is a bad idea.

This is a good idea, and a necessary one.

[Khobai]

Quote

Khobai: the kitfox, properly used, will still beat any IS light in a one on one.

Nope. The Firestarter is a superior light in pretty much every regard. And even if the Kitfox gains the upper hand the best it can ever hope for 1v1 is a tie because faster lights can keep running away from the Kitfox and the kitfox can never catch up to them.

Quote

Any clan mech can boat Cstreaks and insta win vrs any Inner Sphere light

Uh how? If you go 106kph and a fast light goes 150kph how are you ever getting in streak range? The only way that happens is if the light pilot is dumb or makes a mistake. Any decent light pilot will see you have streaks and just stay out of your range.

It sounds like im the only light pilot here that actually looks at peoples loadouts before deciding how to engage them... if im playing a light mech and see streaks on a mech thats slower than me I dont get within streak range. Derp.

The whole advantage of having speed is that you get to fight on your own terms. You decide when and how to engage anything thats slower than you. And if youre fast enough you can disengage from a fight at will.

Quote

Another falsehood heard daily is that Clans are better at long range and Inner Sphere are better at short range.

And I dont subscribe to that. Clan lasers are overpowered at all ranges. I still maintain that clan weapon balance is a much bigger source of imbalance than the CXL. Nerfing clan lasers and buffing ISXL is still the best way to balance things.

Edited by Khobai, 20 September 2015 - 03:57 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Johnny Z, on 20 September 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

Another falsehood heard daily is that Clans are better at long range and Inner Sphere are better at short range.

Fact is Clans own up close and will take any opportinuty to get there, where Clans lose is at extreme ranges vrs the Inner Sphere ERLL. That is the one weapon that is better than anything the Omni's can mount. The short IS duration vrs Omni long duration CERLL makes a poke fight an Inner Sphere win.

Why the same false line is heard so often on these forums is beyond me.

The reason that fallacy is repeated is because many IS mechs are more or less forced to take brawling loadouts, because that is the only remotely viable option for them.

In contrast, even if clan brawlers are stronger than IS brawlers, the metabuilds for clans are midrange gaussvomit. So you see more midrange loudouts on clan mechs and more brawling loadouts on IS mechs.

When IS brawlers beat clan midrange builds in a brawl people get the false impression that IS is better at brawling, just because they don't witness clan brawl builds in action often enough to know how good they are.

[GeneralArmchair]

This is a good thread with good ideas. The clan XL engine is the root of the majority of the imbalances between IS can Clan tech.

[Johnny Z]

The reason I know Omni mechs are weak at long range is from reaching top rank in the faction i am in, playing many matches. Every single one of those matches consisted with the Omni mechs charging the Inner Sphere mechs moving into brawling range and basically laying waste most of the time. Every match Omni mechs charged the Inner Sphere to be extremely clear. (correction, about 90% of matches)

Also A few matches I got 15 or so Omni mechs myself with up to 3200 for the match, 100% legit, and most likely made a couple enemies on the Clan factions side. . Mostly using a 2 ERLL 4x Raven. The 4X raven accounted for 1000+ damage in a single match a few times. Basically many matches the Clans had to charge to stop from being wiped out at long range. I would run a few of them out of Gauss ammo and stuff like that fighting at max range using cover.

In comparison the 4 LL STK 4N is one of the strongest Inner Sphere mechs and while having many excellent matches, it could never match the scores that the 4X was able to get. Almost every match the 4X got the best score. Other mechs, and I have tried many mastered, fully outfitted mechs, have not compared at all to those two including the Thunderbolts, although I think the Champion Thunderbolt is 3rd for what mechs I have been able to try. Banshee and others are supposed to be good but never tried those.

Anyway, the two techs are not completely unbalanced, just a couple issues make it a joke like the Omni XL and the ultra weak Inner Sphere XL. A few other game mechanics as well.

Just to add a bit more. I started the Galaxy map using a Commando, Hunchback, Orion, STK, all mastered and equipped with a fair amount of expience piloting them. It was brutal. New players not ready or equipped for the Galactic war map are in for a beating, and thats whats been going on for months. Either that or farming matches.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 September 2015 - 06:08 AM.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Which completely proves my whole point.

The Orion has more free tonnage than the Timberwolf before any weapons are added.

Its not until after weapons are added that the Timberwolf comes out ahead.

The overpowered clan weapons are where clan mechs are getting their extra tonnage from. It isnt coming from the CXL. If anything the CXL is forcing clan mechs to spend more tonnage than they want to on an inefficiently rated engine thats much faster than they need.

Its the clan weapons that need balancing the most. Not the engines.



Um the Arctic Cheetah has ECM too. It can also support larger mechs. And its better than the Kitfox in pretty much every regard.

Im sorry but the Kitfox is just bad. Its a bad light thats poorly scaled and slow. Its side torsos are absurdly easy to pinpoint and it only takes one alphastrike to blow out its side torso. Its a 30 ton mech it should be the same size as a spider not the size of a 55 ton mech. And it doesnt necessarily have to be that fast, but it certainly shouldnt lose the speed it does have from a side torso blowout. Mechs like the kitfox shouldnt have to suffer because other mechs like the arctic cheetah are too good.


The whole goal of rebalancing should be to make the Kitfox and Arctic Cheetah equal (both are 30 ton clan mechs) with neither being overpowered.

So if you were to implement a speed nerf for a side torso blowout youd basically be crippling the Kitfox and subjecting it to speeds of like 70-80kph the first time it gets hit. Which is a JOKE for a light mech. It wouldnt even be able to retreat at that point. There would be absolutely no way you could properly balance the Kit Fox with other lights if you implemented something as punitive as that.

Ok let's just go with the assumption that all weapons become ballanced and my example of the Orion Vs the Timberwolf is still the one we will use.

Remember how the Orion has 4 more unspent tons when using a 300 STD engine and Endo than a Timberwolf?

Remember how many heatsinks each mech has at this point? 10 for the orion and 15 for the Timberwolf.

Now if a heatsink is one ton then there is a simple fact you are ignoring.The Timberwolf has 27.5 tons of podspace and 5 tons already devoted to heatsinks for a total of 27.5 tons + 5 tons = 32.5 tons of total payload.

This means the Timberwolf before we put a single ounce of weapons on it has one ton higher payload than an Orion AND it's faster.

Sure you don't get an option to not have 15 DHS but those DHS are useful and would in all likelyhood be part of the vast majority of Timberwolf builds anyhow.

So now let's look to the future when those IIc mechs come into play.Those mechs are just as customizable as Inner Sphere mechs.So let's instead compare an Orion IIc with an Orion. One gets an XL that does not significantly degrade durrability the other gets an engine that tripples the likelyhood of being destroyed.

Orion IIc with endo ferro and CXL and 10 DHS has 42.5 unused tonnage
I.S. Orion with Endo (can't fit Ferro) won't be using the suicide engine so 300 std and 10 DHS has 31.5 unused tonnage.

So where do you suppose the Orion IIc gets that 11 more tons from? It can't be clan weapons neither mech has anyweapons installed yet it certainly isn't all from Clan Ferro Fibrious armor.I think maybe it's the CXL engine that provides the benifit of weight savings without also being a near suicidal choice.

I am showing actual numbers based on the mechanics we have in the game and you are shipping opinion as fact.

There is no point to ballancing weapons if the engine disparity is such a huge deal breaker.Like I have said twice before if all weapons are equal then the end results will still be in favor of the clans.

Clan mechs will without hesitation use XL engines.So the CXL is the default clan engine since there is pretty much no reason not to use it.Meanwhile Inner Sphere mechs need to make a hard choice.Take an XL for higher weapon payload or higher speed and also accept the fact that your mech is significantly less durrable because of the XL.

The Clan mechs get all the benifit of weight savings without the burden of the fragility from XL engine use.This means Clan mechs get the speed and added payload ALWAYS where I.S. mechs get it sometimes with the trade of of being fragile.

Can you see where this makes clan mechs superior based soley on the CXL engine? The Clan Mechs get cake and eat it too.

Now onto the Arctic Cheetah thing...I looked and looked but couldn't find the omni pod with three AMS on it for an Arctic Cheetah.Because there is none.The Kitfox posseses a unique ability that no other mech in the game has and that is a nigh invulnerability to LRMs for anything close to it as well as it's self.Enemy has TAGed through your ECM? The LRM rain is coming down...reduced to a tickling drizzle because of a Kitfox congratz your Direwhale survived to fight the enemy! Arctic Cheetah in the same situation? Well at least a small amount of the LRMs were shot down by one AMS the Direwolf is only mostly destroyed hope no one sneezes on it.

Because of the Omnipod mechanics and only having one of the pods supplied with AMS hardpoints Clan formations have significantly fewer AMS equiped.Clans also have fewer ECM options (Inner Sphere companies can have all 12 mechs with ECM) Although it can be argued that the clan mechs that do have ECM are better that is another argument mine is the clan has fewer chassis that do have ECM.This is where an mech with an Omnipod with tripple AMS and an ECM comes in to fix this shortfall and the Kitfox is the only mech that does this.

So should every mech in a weight class be equal? should A Jenner a Raven Panther Wolfhound and a Firestarter all have equal ability? Then that raises the question why should we have more than one 35 ton mech chassis if "all same".

Also I agree that speed nerfs with engine hits are not neccissarily the best choice to be a ballancing mechanic applied to both XL engine types.I would rather see the more lore appropriate heat penalty.

The Table Top game Battletech has 2 primary rules governing engine damage.PGI used one and ignored the other.I am thinking we remove the one they did use and replace it with the unused rule.

The 2 Battletech engine damage rules are.

1) Each engine hit sustained builds an additional 5 heat points (this can be translated to MWo by a % of heat threshhold penalty)

2) Three engine hits destroys a mech. (ditch this one and use the rule one instead)

Or increase the engine hits to cause destruction to 4 and use the heat penalty rule.

And if anyone is concerned about STD engines becoming the next single heat sink then I have a solution for that.

Any mech with a standard engine also has a flat percentage buff applied to it's CT structure value.

IE: An Atlas with an XL engine gets the weight savings but if it instead takes the STD engine it gets 20% increased CT structure.

The structure buff needs to be a significant one in order to make it worth doing instead of always going for the lighter engines.

[beerandasmoke]

Khobai, on 20 September 2015 - 03:03 AM, said:

Nope. The Firestarter is a superior light in pretty much every regard. And even if the Kitfox gains the upper hand the best it can ever hope for 1v1 is a tie because faster lights can keep running away from the Kitfox and the kitfox can never catch up to them.



Uh how? If you go 106kph and a fast light goes 150kph how are you ever getting in streak range? The only way that happens is if the light pilot is dumb or makes a mistake. Any decent light pilot will see you have streaks and just stay out of your range.

It sounds like im the only light pilot here that actually looks at peoples loadouts before deciding how to engage them... if im playing a light mech and see streaks on a mech thats slower than me I dont get within streak range. Derp.

The whole advantage of having speed is that you get to fight on your own terms. You decide when and how to engage anything thats slower than you. And if youre fast enough you can disengage from a fight at will.



And I dont subscribe to that. Clan lasers are overpowered at all ranges. I still maintain that clan weapon balance is a much bigger source of imbalance than the CXL. Nerfing clan lasers and buffing ISXL is still the best way to balance things.

Your talking the best the innersphere has against one of the worst clanmechs. So how about we switch it around. What about a streakfox against a commando? Streakadder vs spider? Hell even a 4ERML mist lynx vs the typical ECM raven. Lets not even get the Locust involved. Whats going to happen in those fights? Most likely the clan pilot will win.

As far as theis balance suggestion for buffing the ISXL? It needs to happen and it will go a long way towards bringing ISvsClan balance. I see a lot of people saying not to do it because it will cause the SE to not be used. Thats like saying we cant bring IS ERML into the game because no one will want to use the standard ML. This has to happen guys lore be damned or else we are going to keep getting these wild swings in balance where they try massive buffs to offset clan superiority. If Clan pilots dont want this then you need your mechs nerfed to bring balance. Which do you prefer? Drive the same thing your driving now or drive a mech that is heavily nerfed or has nerfed weapons. Up to you guys.

Too Russ if hes reading: this will go a long way towards balancing the game in my opinion. Just have IS XL mirror the clan and we will figure out what to do with the Standard later.

Edited by beerandasmoke, 20 September 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[Chados]

Duke Nedo, on 20 September 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

This is a good idea, and a necessary one.

It's not just good, and it's not just necessary...it is *outstanding.* The matchmaker ought to treat Clan 'mechs as one class higher than they are for the purpose of 3/3/3/3 matchmaking, frankly. IS 85-90 tonners are the only thing in the IS arsenal that can hope to compete with Clan heavy 'mechs and the only real way the IS can compete with Dire Wolves is in numbers. And this change would make the Awesome a relevant mech again. Plus, it would make the others more survivable and better able to carry better loadouts.

Another thing that ought to be considered is the MechCommander solution of battlefield salvage. Pilots ought to be able to salvage a Clanner PPC or gauss rifle or laser and retrofit it into an IS 'mech. Because the only real way an Orion et al. is going to be able to compete long term is if it can boost its weapons. Lighter, smaller Clan weapons means an IS 'mech retrofitting tech cou,d have a shot at using all its hardpoints and returning the Clan laser/streakboats' favor. If I could swap IS ALRM20s on a Catapult C4 for their Clanner equivalents, I'd do it in a New York minute-they recycle faster, they are lighter (allowing carriage of heavier backup weapons), and they do damage inside 180 meters. It's Deity-Mode for LRM carriers.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 20 September 2015 - 03:03 AM, said:

Uh how? If you go 106kph and a fast light goes 150kph how are you ever getting in streak range? The only way that happens is if the light pilot is dumb or makes a mistake. Any decent light pilot will see you have streaks and just stay out of your range.

It sounds like im the only light pilot here that actually looks at peoples loadouts before deciding how to engage them... if im playing a light mech and see streaks on a mech thats slower than me I dont get within streak range. Derp.

The whole advantage of having speed is that you get to fight on your own terms. You decide when and how to engage anything thats slower than you. And if youre fast enough you can disengage from a fight at will.

How indeed? Well I would say ECM and how it obscures target information would be a big help.The "fast light" will not even know the Kitfox loadout until it is within 50% of the Streaks max range.So essentially the "fast light" will know the loadout shortly after the first volley of 12 streak missiles hit it the "fast light" will be turning to disengage at about the time the second volley hits and maybe if the "fast light" pilot is really on the ball the third volley will not be fired because the "fastlight" slipped out of range.( of note if this "fast light" is a Locust or Commando it's probably dead already because you blew a side torso or leg off in the two volleys that can easily be fired)

Now the Kitfox becomes a 300m radious "fast light" be gone mobile bubble where no light mech that has just taken 24 streak missiles would dare to enter. You may not get the kill but you have secured an area where enemy light mechs will not be operating in without exposure to highly effective weapon fire.

The Kitfox has enough speed to perform it's role.It is an area denial ECM equiped support mech that is best used within it's own formation instead of roving out to the rear and flanks of the enemy formation.

I think your point is you do not like the idea of a support light mech rather than the Kitfox is the ideal example of why IS XL engines and CXL engine ballance isn't as important as weapon ballance.

[beerandasmoke]

Lykaon, on 20 September 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

How indeed? Well I would say ECM and how it obscures target information would be a big help.The "fast light" will not even know the Kitfox loadout until it is within 50% of the Streaks max range.So essentially the "fast light" will know the loadout shortly after the first volley of 12 streak missiles hit it the "fast light" will be turning to disengage at about the time the second volley hits and maybe if the "fast light" pilot is really on the ball the third volley will not be fired because the "fastlight" slipped out of range.( of note if this "fast light" is a Locust or Commando it's probably dead already because you blew a side torso or leg off in the two volleys that can easily be fired)

Now the Kitfox becomes a 300m radious "fast light" be gone mobile bubble where no light mech that has just taken 24 streak missiles would dare to enter. You may not get the kill but you have secured an area where enemy light mechs will not be operating in without exposure to highly effective weapon fire.

The Kitfox has enough speed to perform it's role.It is an area denial ECM equiped support mech that is best used within it's own formation instead of roving out to the rear and flanks of the enemy formation.

I think your point is you do not like the idea of a support light mech rather than the Kitfox is the ideal example of why IS XL engines and CXL engine ballance isn't as important as weapon ballance.

Good points plus streaks actually outrange the typical IS light loadout of ML or MPL. So the IS pilot is going to have to close within streakrange to engage. Personally I consider the adder and kitfox pocket mediums. They have as much firepower as most IS mechs but are only 35 tonners. They only thing they lack to perform that role is armor but they do have the excellent clan ranged weapons to somewhat compensate.

[AEgg]

Lykaon, on 20 September 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

-Snip-

Why is nearly everyone in this thread so dead-set on making IS and clan identical?

The IS gets choices, the clans do not. The natural way to balance these would be to play to the differences, not remove them. The clans default option should be usable but not ideal. The IS should have significant differences between both choices and each should arguably be slightly worse than the clans (because you can make the "right" choice for your mech and the clans can't. Nerf the clan mechs that have everything right by default).

So buff the IS XL for the mechs that it's risky to use with, i.e., anything heavier than 35 tons.

No one even responded to this last time so I guess I'll just post it again:
Make IS XL engines give a passive buff that increases with the tonnage of the mech carrying the engine.

Simple example would be heat dissipation:
IS XL adds .25xMechTonnage heat dissipation. So a 100 ton mech gets 25% better heat dissipation if it runs an XL, but a 25 ton mech only gets 7.5. You could even make it a sliding scale so there's not really any benefit for mechs under about 40 tons (since they don't really need buffs).

[Dunereaper]

They should just add LFE and call it a day.

[Lykaon]

AEgg, on 20 September 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

Why is nearly everyone in this thread so dead-set on making IS and clan identical?

The IS gets choices, the clans do not. The natural way to balance these would be to play to the differences, not remove them. The clans default option should be usable but not ideal. The IS should have significant differences between both choices and each should arguably be slightly worse than the clans (because you can make the "right" choice for your mech and the clans can't. Nerf the clan mechs that have everything right by default).

So buff the IS XL for the mechs that it's risky to use with, i.e., anything heavier than 35 tons.

No one even responded to this last time so I guess I'll just post it again:
Make IS XL engines give a passive buff that increases with the tonnage of the mech carrying the engine.

Simple example would be heat dissipation:
IS XL adds .25xMechTonnage heat dissipation. So a 100 ton mech gets 25% better heat dissipation if it runs an XL, but a 25 ton mech only gets 7.5. You could even make it a sliding scale so there's not really any benefit for mechs under about 40 tons (since they don't really need buffs).

Let me address your counter points one at a time.

"Why is everyone in this thread so dead-set on making IS and clan identical?"

Well I'm not advocating anthing of the sort Identical would be an exact copy (look it up last time I checked identical was not the same as ballanced). Since clan mechs and IS mechs will be directly opposed to eachother in CW there should be some degree of ballance between them.If IS mechs are inferior then why should one side in a "fair fight" get easy mode clantech?

The recent test server build removed the weapon quirks and it is Pauls intention to not reimpliment them.
This leaves us with a bit of a problem.How do we make an Orion competative with a Timberwolf? Both players should get a fair and enjoyable experience from playing but let's face it a Timberwolf is far superior to the Orion leading to the clan mech having a distinctive edge and thus a likely winner of any conflict between the Orion and a Timberwolf.

"The IS gets choices the clans do not"

I would point out that clan omnimechs get to mix and match omni pods.This is an advantage for tailoring a mech to a players desires.You can take a chassis you like and then optimize the hardpoints.

This is choice. and a choice only clan omni mechs allow. The IS equivilent is shopping for a mech in a weight class with the most of what you want and deal with whatever negative performance qualities exist with that chassis.Why? because I can't take the hardpoints from one mech and put them on the one I want.

If only I had a ballistic hardpoint on an arm...IS mech = tough deal with it Clan Omnimech = choose the ballistic omnipod.

And here comes the torpedoe to sink your argument.

Clan IIc mechs! All the customization of an IS mech with clantech!

"So buff the IS XL for mechs that it's to risky to use with,i.e., anything over 35 tons."

So it's less of a programming and manpower issue to alter every IS mech over 35 tons than to alter the XL engine?

And why would it be OK for IS mechs of 35 tons or lighter to have a more fragile engine compared to clan mechs of the same weight catagory? The clan pilots somehow deserve an easyer kill?


Now about your proposal for XL engines buffing heat dissapation based upon a percentage of mech overall tonnage (yet again excluding IS light mechs for some reason)

So I have a Kingcrab with an XL engine and because of this I get more heat dissapation.In your example I get 25% more heat dissapation.

So lets look at some numbers I can pull off Smurfy...

King crab with 350 XL 14 DHS Endo steel 2 ER Large Lasers 4 AC5s with 8 tons of ammo.

With 25% more heat dissapation I get 27.5 seconds of continous fire before a shut down event (fully mastered )
Without any buff I would get 22 seconds of continous fire before a shutdown.

So that would be 5.2 seconds of buffage.Do you think an XL Kingcrab would survive longer than 22 seconds to even make use of it's + 5.2 seconds of buff? I highly doubt this mech would survive longer than 10 seconds with an XL engine so that "buff" is kinda useless and pathetic.

Your suggestion still gifts clan mech pilots with easy kills of XL engine equiped mechs so hardley anyone would use a death sentence XL for a few seconds of weapon fire they will never see because they were destroyed before it came into play.

A better proposal would be the following.

All XL engine have the engine hits upped to four before the mech counts as destroyed. This is actually a minor buff to clan mechs since it requires two additional engine crits to be destroyed rather than one more.

In addition each engine critical hit generates an accumulating percentage of heat per engine hit sustained.Let's just use 10% as an example (the actual number is open for debate)

This would mean a Clan mech with a side torso loss would be accumulating 20% extra heat while the IS mech would be accumulating 30% (because IS XL have 3 crit slots in a side torso instead of the CXL's two)

The big and important difference is the IS mech is no longer an XP and C-bill pinata for clan mechs to cash in on because they are laughably fragile in compareson to a CXL equiped mech.

[Sjorpha]

AEgg, on 20 September 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

Why is nearly everyone in this thread so dead-set on making IS and clan identical?

That isn't my interpretation of the majority opinion, but I do agree that the balancing should not be about making them more similar.

Actually the current problem is partly that they are too similar, and this goes through the tech imbalance as a whole. The Clan XL is like the IS XL, but better. The Clan ERPPC is like the IS ERPPC, but better. And so on. That is terrible game design.

The IS XL should be good in a different way than the Clan XL. For me the natural thing to do, if I was designing the game from the ground would be to just continue the mechanic of durability - size- weight as a tradeoff. So just make the IS XL save more weight than the Clan XL since it is bigger and more fragile.

But I'd be ok with some other advantage to IS XL that matches the Clan XL durability, such as more agility, more internal heatsinks or whatever.

Same with weapons, best way to fix the imbalance between for example IS and Clan ERPPC would be to make the function differently rather than do some futile attempt to bring them closer to each other.

One idea I've played with in my head, for laser balancing, would be to make the Clan lasers on/off beams that fire as long as you hold down the fire button. That would let Clan mechs manually control their durations (and heat) which would feel more high-tech than the IS lasers and require much more skill, and in return the IS lasers would be have much better heat and DPS while the clans have the range.

That's the kind of thing we need, as mechanically different factions as possible. The ACs are one example of balancing I like, they actually feel different for clan and IS and actually add up to comparable strength as well. It should be like that with all the weapons, engines and other equipment as well.

[Rakshasa]

Just spitballing a variant on the OP's idea here:-

XL ST Loss Penalties

• Speed: -15% per slot occupied.
  
• Heat Buildup per Shot per Weapon: +10% per slot occupied.
  
• Energy Weapon Cooldown: +15% per slot occupied.

Rules are consistent for both factions, so the loss of a side torso would inflict penalties of -45%/+30%/+45% for IS mechs and -30%/+20%/+30% for Clan mechs.


Why energy cooldown? Well, as well as slowing the mech and destroying engine heatsinks (weapon buildup), the engine (reactor) also supplies the raw juice for energy weapons. So the loss of an ST and components could justifiably begin to starve energy weapons on the mech. Energy weapons would be lasers, PPC's, flamers and gauss weapons, making an ST loss pretty crippling even if the mech could still fight on.

This would probably bang against other balance attempts down the road but it's a spitball idea, so...yeah. Speed, heat buildup, energy weapon recharge. Who knows, it might even go a way towards curbing laser boats a bit (and keep STD engines attractive because of no risk of fire rate loss)

Edited by Rakshasa, 20 September 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

Have you not read anything I posted? The balancing factor would be giving ISXL the ability to survive a side torso destruction. Rather than nerfing CXL to the point where it makes clan mechs useless.

And most of the other balance problems would be solved by nerfing clan weapons so overpowered IS quirks are no longer needed.

Yes, I did.

I do not agree with you.

IS tech is fine where it is. I do not want it powered up to catch up with Clan tech and set the bar there. Clan tech should be reigned in to undo the power creep that's happened since its release.

I don't subscribe to the notion that only the weapons are the problem. Clan XLs, DHS and endo/ferro are inherently vastly superior to their IS counterparts. It's mostly whitewashed because of limited customization making people focus on nerfing a specific chassis that has all of the above. It's the wrong approach, just like inflating weapon quirks.

The idea that a Clan mech would become useless with serious consequences to engine damage is honestly laughable. The benefits to having the XL engine far outweigh the risks.

[AEgg]

Lykaon, on 20 September 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

-snip-

You missed my meaning on the first point. The idea is that we want clan and IS to be balanced, but we don't want to do that by making them more similar, we want to do that by making them more different. Your suggestion is just to make them more similar. And once we start down that path, achieving balance will mean moving closer and closer until clan and IS mechs do play the same way.


Moving omnipods is completely unrelated to the choice of STD or XL engine. Your locked engine affects all of the omnipods, since each variant has the same engine, so regardless of which ones you use their usefulness is still largely dictated by your engine type and size. I'm assuming you realize that you can't swap omnipods between mechs, but your post is worded to suggest you don't realize this.

The Orion and Timberwolf are a bad comparison simply because the Orion has mediocre hardpoints and a huge profile. It's much like comparing a Dragon and, well, any other heavy. The Dragon simply needs buffs because it's base design isn't very good.

IIC mechs are indeed a problem, but everyone knows that. If we are balancing mildly superior clan weapons by removing customization and penalizing the mechs that are "right" stock, then IIC mechs need to be handled differently. Most likely, with blanket negative quirks. There aren't very many of them, after all.

But here's where your problem is:

Lykaon, on 20 September 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

So it's less of a programming and manpower issue to alter every IS mech over 35 tons than to alter the XL engine?

And why would it be OK for IS mechs of 35 tons or lighter to have a more fragile engine compared to clan mechs of the same weight catagory? The clan pilots somehow deserve an easyer kill?

One, it's not a programming or manpower issue if we change a property of the XL engine itself, not the mechs you put it in.
Two, it's not an easier kill if that engine provides significant bonuses in exchange for the lower durability. Right now, pretty much everyone agrees the weight savings usually are not significant enough.

Going off the numbers I provided doesn't do anyone any good. Numbers are easy to tweak. Lets just do this to see if the idea holds water:

IS XL provides (.5xMechTonnage)% heat reduction,
(1xMechTonnage)% faster twist speed
(.25xMechTonnage)% faster weapon cooldowns
(MechTonnage/25 rounded up) extra internal heatsinks (built-in)

For all mechs over 35 tons, non linear scaling would probably be better, but linear is much easier to write out for sake of explanation.

So a KGC that took an XL would get 50% heat dissipation, double twist speed, 25% faster weapon cooldowns, 4 free DHS, and of course the tonnage savings. I'm thinking that would be more than enough to make an IS XL a viable option for heavier mechs.

So we just would need to tweak the numbers to find out what the buffs should be and what sort of scale to use so that we find an amount that makes IS XL viable for heavier mechs without making it the only option (as would be the case if we added significant surviveability buffs to it).

Fleeb the Mad, on 20 September 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

-Snip-

The idea that a Clan mech would become useless with serious consequences to engine damage is honestly laughable. The benefits to having the XL engine far outweigh the risks.

So you run an XL in your King Crab? I didn't think so. So forcing clan assaults and heavies to take an XL that effectively kills them when a side torso goes is not a workable solution.

No one on the IS side uses XL engines in bigger mechs right now, yet that's EXACTLY where the disparity between clan and IS lies, particularly with engines. Heavier clan mechs always use XL, and IS mechs never do. We know why IS mechs don't use XL, it's not worth the risk. So lets make it worth the risk, in some way that doesn't make it the only choice (which, lets be honest, anything that allows surviving ST loss would do).

Edit Edit: I guess I should clarify, we COULD balance clan XL by making clan mechs die to ST loss, but we'd need to blanket buff heavier clan mechs to make up for it. I'd rather buff the IS XL than clan mechs using an XL, wouldn't you?

Edited by AEgg, 20 September 2015 - 10:36 AM.