113 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

For the Commie, since missiles are a key part of its role on most variants, how about a fairly big missile spread reduction? I'm talking no less than 20%, with no higher than 35-40%. Basically gives you free Artemis.

Better missile spread doesnt really help the commando all that much.

1) commando mostly got boned by srm/streak damage being lowered and BAP hard countering ECM
2) commando still gets screwed by not having enough crit slots to take both ES and FF due to not being able to fit 10 internal DHS
3) commando also gets screwed by not being able to carry enough ammo for its missile dependent loadouts


Solutions
-fix bap/ecm relationship so it doesnt counter the commando as badly
-increase missile damage for IS srms/streaks
-increase srm/streak ammo per ton by the same 50% increase all other weapons got (why srms/streaks never got the same ammo increase is beyond me)
-rework sub-250 engines so they all have 10 internal heatsinks. Just make them weigh 1-2 tons more depending on how many heatsinks need to be added to get them to 10.
-make hand actuators actually do something (like improve hill climbing) so mechs like the commando that are forced to take hand actuators have some advantage over mechs like the jenner that dont have hand actuators

Edited by Khobai, 22 September 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[GreyNovember]

sycocys, on 22 September 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

CT mounts are bad on that Commando because the 1 thing it does lack is pitch angle and those are mounted low on the CT from my recollection. It also requires that you use srm2 or 4 which isn't the worst outright, but you also can't use artemis because of the location.
It's not a terrible mech, just terrible compared to the layouts of the other Commandos with nothing to offset the bad hardpoint location.

They really don't need buffs to be at Cheetah or Firestarter level, they are already there its just that people are so over-concerned with higher dps that they can't comprehend the crazy ninja skills the commando has always had. Like I said the very most I would consider is an ammo buff, because that's the only thing they lack when matches carry on.

If I had to go way out there to consider a buff for the lightest lights it would be to remove the minimum heat sinks on them which would cover for the lack of ammo in Commandos or let players mix it up with pulses or a LL.

While the heatsink removal is a good call, I'd like to focus on giving the chassis... flavor. For lack of a better term. It's the only one with CT mounted missiles in that pattern? QUIRK IT UP!

This makes it a valid choice in comparison to the rest of the commandos, than if you were to just ditch the heatsink requirement entirely; like how the Hunch 4J is the LRM Hunchie, while you can run SRMs on it or be an energy boat as well.

Again, I want to make it readily apparent that the commando is capable of posing a threat to a cheetah or a firestarter. Sure, someone with experience can see that. I want them to be more readily defined when you look at them in the store. Mouse over them, and see the massive bias it has towards a certain playstyle.

Khobai, on 22 September 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

Doesnt really help the commando

1) commando got boned by srm/streak damage being lowered and BAP hard countering ECM
2) commando still gets screwed by not having enough crit slots to take both ES and FF due to not being able to fit 10 internal DHS
3) commando also gets screwed by not being able to carry enough ammo for its missile dependent loadouts

Alek Ituin, on 22 September 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

The Missile Lolcusts fill a very niche striker role, or can be a singularly hilarious joke build.

I'm trying to focus on making them a considerable threat, while reducing the amount of work it takes to do that on the dev side; such that the changes suggested can be rolled out next patch by tweaking quirks.

Joke builds are nice and all, but not what you want when you just want to be a threat in the mech. If the missile locust fills a very narrow niche, make it REALLY REALLY good at that niche.

[MrPrezident]

Arctic cheetah cant die, but making the locust and commando tankier? Perhaps this idea I could get behind, the opposite needs to happen for the arctic cheetah.

[Alek Ituin]

GreyNovember, on 22 September 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

I'm trying to focus on making them a considerable threat, while reducing the amount of work it takes to do that on the dev side; such that the changes suggested can be rolled out next patch by tweaking quirks.

Joke builds are nice and all, but not what you want when you just want to be a threat in the mech. If the missile locust fills a very narrow niche, make it REALLY REALLY good at that niche.

You underestimate the ability to make Assaults piss themselves in terror with constant "Incoming Missile" warnings flashing on their screens. When a 20 ton Mech can hold up easily 500 tons of Mechs, you're doing something right. Although... it only takes one person to figure out all you've got is an MLas and 2x LRM5's to break the illusion.

In other words: Don't let them call your bluff.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 22 September 2015 - 07:19 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Alek Ituin, on 22 September 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

You underestimate the ability to make Assaults piss themselves in terror with constant "Incoming Missile" warnings flashing on their screens. When a 20 ton Mech can hold up easily 500 tons of Mechs, you're doing something right. Although... it only takes one person to figure out all you've got is an MLas and 2x LRM5's to break the illusion.

In other words: Don't let them call your bluff.

The hillhumping Urbie with an AC/2 does that extremely well too. A couple plinks, and the dires start scurrying.

[Khobai]

Well simple fixes would be the following then:

1) increase IS srm/streak damage back to 2.5/missile
2) increase IS and Clan srm/streak ammo per ton by 50% (all other ammo using weapons EXCEPT srms/streaks got this increase)
3) give commando a +5% movement speed quirk (makes up for sub-250 engine issues)
4) give commando a +10% heat dissipation quirk (makes up for lack of true dubs)

[Rhaythe]

Khobai, on 22 September 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

Well simple fixes would be the following then:

1) increase IS srm/streak damage back to 2.5/missile
2) increase IS and Clan srm/streak ammo per ton by 50% (all other ammo using weapons EXCEPT srms/streaks got this increase)

Those two would make streakcrows a nightmare and actually hinder lights.

[Khobai]

Quote

Those two would make streakcrows a nightmare and actually hinder lights.

read again

the damage increase only applies to IS srms/streaks not clan ones.

IS srms/streaks weigh TWICE as much as clan ones so making them do more damage is common sense from a balance standpoint.

Also changing BAP so it no longer completely hard counters ECM would allow the commando to get closer to streak mechs. BAP is really one of the things that killed the commando.

Edited by Khobai, 22 September 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Khobai, on 22 September 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

read again

the damage increase only applies to IS srms/streaks not clan ones.

IS srms/streaks weigh TWICE as much as clan ones so making them do more damage is common sense.

Also changing BAP so it no longer completely hard counters ECM would allow the commando to get closer to streak mechs. BAP is really one of the things that killed the commando.

My mistake. That would be a major departure to have IS weapons doing MORE damage than clan counterparts though. I can foresee some public upheaval over that.

[Khobai]

Quote

My mistake. That would be a major departure to have IS weapons doing MORE damage than clan counterparts though. I can foresee some public upheaval over that.

not really. the is autocannons do much more damage than the clan ones for example.

the only way IS srms/streaks are going to compete with clan srms/streaks, which are half the weight, is if they do more damage per missile.

[GreyNovember]

Alek Ituin, on 22 September 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

You underestimate the ability to make Assaults piss themselves in terror with constant "Incoming Missile" warnings flashing on their screens. When a 20 ton Mech can hold up easily 500 tons of Mechs, you're doing something right. Although... it only takes one person to figure out all you've got is an MLas and 2x LRM5's to break the illusion.

In other words: Don't let them call your bluff.

In an ideal scenario where you find an assault lance without ECM, sure.

Khobai, on 22 September 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

Well simple fixes would be the following then:

1) increase IS srm/streak damage back to 2.5/missile
2) increase IS and Clan srm/streak ammo per ton by 50% (all other ammo using weapons EXCEPT srms/streaks got this increase)
3) give commando a +5% movement speed quirk (makes up for sub-250 engine issues)
4) give commando a +10% heat dissipation quirk (makes up for lack of true dubs)

Those streaks are still targeting random components. See, you're giving all commandos this general missile friendly and movement friendly quirkening, which now makes it a hardpoint game.

I mean, fine, let's give one commando streak compatibility.

Let's give the others something too, that makes them a different, but equally effective choice.

Want an LRM Commando? Never fear! This one basically fires it in one very tight blob!

Wanted an SRM version? No problem, here you go! This one isn't quite as tight, but fires significantly faster to reward you getting close!

Streaks you say? Well how about this one, with increased ammo and refire rate to reward your facetime?

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 22 September 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

not really. the is autocannons do much more damage than the clan ones for example.

Whaaaaaat? No they don't. More concentrated in most cases, but the total amount is the same (or actually less if we compare IS regular ACs to Clan Ultras other than the 5).

Khobai, on 22 September 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

the only way IS srms/streaks are going to compete with clan srms/streaks, which are half the weight, is if they do more damage per missile.

I'd rather use things like cooldown, spread, and/or heat to differentiate them.

For Streaks in particular, they should have their targeting system scrapped for something that allows aiming BEFORE we start buffing them, so that they don't just become super anti-light aimbots again.

[GreyNovember]

FupDup, on 22 September 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

For Streaks in particular, they should have their targeting system scrapped for something that allows aiming BEFORE we start buffing them, so that they don't just become super anti-light aimbots again.

This would be nice, but, minimal effort version first.

[sycocys]

I don't want to see any more massively quirked mechs at all first of all, we just don't need it as much as we need players taking the time to learn to play the different chassis/variants.

Would much rather see them put in the effort into making sure chassis are viable and different at the base level. In the case of things like the 25 ton and under mechs that heat sink requirement is a killer for both loadout and ammo options. It would solve to problems at once across a bunch of mechs.

For just the 1D, the location of those hardpoints is what kills it, its not underpowered based on the amount it cant take, just on where it is because that location is just not a good spot on a short little humanoid mech.

[Rhaythe]

I'm curious as to what happened to the idea that Clan streaks were supposed to be streamed, like LRMs, as a balancing point. At least that way AMS could keep up with it.

[GreyNovember]

sycocys, on 22 September 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

I don't want to see any more massively quirked mechs at all first of all, we just don't need it as much as we need players taking the time to learn to play the different chassis/variants.

Would much rather see them put in the effort into making sure chassis are viable and different at the base level. In the case of things like the 25 ton and under mechs that heat sink requirement is a killer for both loadout and ammo options. It would solve to problems at once across a bunch of mechs.

For just the 1D, the location of those hardpoints is what kills it, its not underpowered based on the amount it cant take, just on where it is because that location is just not a good spot on a short little humanoid mech.

I'm not disagreeing with what would help them overall.

But again, I'd like them all to be distinct from one another. Even if you quirk a Commando CBill variant to 50% Fire rate, or 50% Missile spread, is anyone really going to be upset about it? I mean it's a commando after all. Same Logic with the Locust PB. It's a Hero mech with ECM, yes, but it's also.

Y'know.

A Locust.

Even if we gave those mechs that 50% quirk, we could deny it the heat generation quirk. It still retains a flaw, along with it's already less than ideal geometry and engine sizes.

Quirking them up like this is the easiest way to do that, without having something like a global change accidentally affecting other mechs for whatever unforseen reason.

[stealthraccoon]

Timberwolf581, on 22 September 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

I just love to run circles around slow assault mechs and drive them crazy by peppering them with MG fire.
(*plink* *plink* *plink* *plink* *plink* *plink* *plink* *plink* *plink*)

3V with 2 mg's and 2 mpl's - assaults with damaged armor flip out when you tickle their behinds with constant fire.

Edited by stealthraccoon, 22 September 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[Deathlike]

Rhaythe, on 22 September 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

I'm curious as to what happened to the idea that Clan streaks were supposed to be streamed, like LRMs, as a balancing point. At least that way AMS could keep up with it.

That was a position at the time.


If all the bad Light mechs were at the Cheetah level (barring the Cute Fox or Badder), there would be lots of QQ. The salt would be pretty sweet.

However, it won't ever happen because the event showed that everyone had to be in a bigger mech to get their required match score. Gee, I wonder why...

[GreyNovember]

Deathlike, on 22 September 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

If all the bad Light mechs were at the Cheetah level (barring the Cute Fox or Badder), there would be lots of QQ. The salt would be pretty sweet.

Why? Why would that make people so upset?

You can STILL alpha down a 25 Tonner with a Dire.

[Deathlike]

GreyNovember, on 22 September 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Why? Why would that make people so upset?

You can STILL alpha down a 25 Tonner with a Dire.

With the forums tend to complain about lights being OP (which is laughable, but people keep purporting that because they get backcored often), it's hilarious IMO.

I've seen enough heavies/assaults that cannot shoot a lick vs Lights, and then complain about not being able to hit them. While hitreg is primarily at fault, people keep shooting at anything that doesn't resemble a leg on Lights.