219 replies to this topic

[Spr1ggan]

Water Bear, on 03 October 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

I still see some of those things, too, but by far most of my matches are much harder to win than when I group with T5 players. I suspect it's just the matchmaker relaxing its requirements to prevent matchmaking from taking forever.

To be honest here, I think most people are just upset that their tier rating isn't as high as they were telling themselves it was. This is the harsh reality that competitive players have been living with since ratings were introduced. Sometimes you think you're grandmaster but you're really only bronze.

Heh i played comp for something like 3 years, even won RHoD EU with AS. Have never claimed to be grandmaster though.

[Carbon Guardian]

Has anybody actually seen their bar change from one tier to another? I'm curious

[Water Bear]

Spr1ggan, on 03 October 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Heh i played comp for something like 3 years, even won RHoD EU with AS. Have never claimed to be grandmaster though.

Oh yea, I wasn't calling you out specifically.

In all the games I've played competitively my rank has usually been good but not great. I'm OK with that, but I am all too familiar with the feelings that come with starting out in / being placed in a low tier.

It has always motivated me to player harder, but that's because I'm a competitive person.

[Spr1ggan]

Carbon Guardian, on 03 October 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Has anybody actually seen their bar change from one tier to another? I'm curious

Mine was max tier 1 to start with but even with all **** games i've had levelling Enforcers and a Panther. The bar hasn't changed at all. Even though i was getting negative PSR scores lol.

[PeeWrinkle]

Carbon Guardian, on 03 October 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Has anybody actually seen their bar change from one tier to another? I'm curious

I have seen my tier change. I started in 4 and am now in tier 3. My experience with tier movement is that the most important thing is for you to be on the winning team and to at least do a little damage.

99% of the time in a win I go up. I think it goes up a little more if you do very well. So far from what I can tell you can expect the following:
Match Score with a Win
0-49 = Drops
50-99 = Stays the same
100-299 = Goes up a little
300-399 = Goes up a little more than previous
400 or above = Goes up the Most

If you lose it is almost impossible to move up. All you can do is hope to stay the same.
Match Score with a Loss
0-249 = Drop
250-299 = No Change
300+ = Small Increase

I could be a little bit off on those numbers, but that is what it seems like to me. The sad thing about a loss is most seem to be wipes so it is very difficult to get any increase. For example I had a match today where I had 2 kills, 468 damage and my match score was 262. So there was no change in tier. I have only had two loosing matches with above a 300 match score - both I had an increase in tier. Usually the match scores are very low because as I said earlier most are wipes. It does not take much, a few people milling around away from the group and going down, leaving you assaults behind, no communication, etc. And if you are going against a team that even slightly focuses fire in any of those the match ends in about 4 minutes and you are lucky if you get above 150 damage. Which equals a very low match score.

That said I have adopted following strategy. If I have few hours to play and I seem to be having good drops (winning 2 out of 3 after about 6 matches) I keep playing. If I get on and I loose 3 matches in a row, I just stop playing and come back later. In my experience, even before the tier system, there were times when I'd log on and might win 20 out 25 matches and other times where I could not get a win in 20 matches. In the past I would just keep playing because I was still getting some XP and CBill, which is still true, but now with the tier system I figure why bother if I know I am not going to win very many matches. It seems like it would only hurt me to keep playing.

Just my observations, and like I said I can only go off what I have seen base off my match score so the numbers may not be 100% correct, but they are probably close.

[Inappropriate1]

Ifs its soooo great then publicly publish everyone's rank PGI.

[Chuck Jager]

Wins help

things that help win
Play elited mechs with good builds (good cheese). They put out more damage at the best ranges and are most reliable on different maps
Bring mods every match - seismic wins games
Know where your assaults are and let folks know if they need help
Play aggressively and take damage when needed. Pressure makes the other team fold. (note - this can lead to less damage and quicker deaths, but more wins)
Watch the match and type quick polite info for locations of enemy and loadouts
Don't leave the blob. I don't mean huddle like mice. Scouting, and flanking can be done close enough to help focus the fire power quickly. Scouting away from group can break it up. (yes we have all seen it work differently, but I am talking about average over time in pug)
Farming DCs is not scouting
Be at your computer watching the game start. If you DC you loose PSR even in a win. Players who join late cause more losses than wins
Use the map - most effective battlefield tech for over 5000 years
Do not blame others (even if there is plenty), identify your own weaknesses and make those change.

Basically some of the most predictable boring like a job things help you move up in PSR. Those that do not like playing like this will be in a separate bracket. PSR is more about getting players with similar styles in matches together. PSR works of of large sample sizes. Great numbers in short periods of time has less effect the longer you play the game. Creating wins is harder to judge than pure damage, but over a period of 1000 games a positive win loss gives an accurate picture of how that person does in a group

Play for fun or play to win - but just let PSR sort you out

[Warzog]

What I don't understand is why do they call it PSR (Pilot Skill Rating)?
It should more accurately be called DDR (Damage Done Rating).

From what I've seen, you need to stay alive, get lots of kills, do way over 300 damage, and win the match.
(Fail at just about any of those, and your DDR (PSR) goes down.)

Winning or losing isn't a PILOT skill, it's just a case of teamwork.
(How many pilots get 12 kills, by themselves, to win a match?)
Staying alive isn't that much of a PILOT skill since EVERYONE screams, "die already, we've lost."
(Unless how long you stayed alive in a match was added to the PSR.)
Killing, while it is partly a PILOT skill, is also just shear luck as to which one of a dozen weapons did the killing blow.
(How many times have you ripped into an enemy only to have some passing teammate get the kill?)
Dealing Damage is both a PILOT and a DAMAGE score as it depends on how much damage your mech can dish out before you get wasted.
(ECM, Heavy, and Assault mechs have a big edge there.)
Targeting and weapon's locks are PILOT skills, but do very little in comparison to DAMAGE in the current PSR.
Capturing is a PILOT skill, but does nothing, while DAMAGE carries the most weight in the current PSR.
(I've stopped doing Conquest matches as you are 100% guaranteed to make your PSR go down if you only cap.)
Assisting is a PILOT skill, but does very little in comparison to DAMAGE done in the current PSR.
Weapon's Accuracy is a PILOT skill, but it's not even included in the current PSR, only the DAMAGE done is.
HIT and RUN is a PILOT skill, but does very little in comparison to DAMAGE done in the current PSR.
Dropping a UAV, calling an Artillery Strike, or calling in an Air Strike should be a PILOT Skill, but they don't mean squat in the current PSR.
Providing an ECM shield for your teammates is a PILOT skill, but barely counts in the current PSR.

Most annoying, to me, is things like a recent match where I got target locks the entire match, had 3 kills, 3 assists, did 236 dmg, capped their base to 35%, before we lost 7v12, and my PSR score WENT DOWN!!!
I mean, WTF!?!! Gimme some points for effort!

I think that the current PSR puts far to much emphasis on damage dealt and winning, and not enough on a pilot's actual skill in piloting a mech.

Edited by Warzog, 08 October 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[Martallica]

Okay I'm T5 and like a lot of you guys I kinda thought I was a bit better than that, but sure hey the numbers don't lie .
Anyhow after reading this thread I thought I'd take some screenies and see what the stories is with playing well and loosening
and ya know what I'm going to be in T5 for awhile yet.
I play mostly on weekends and the odd game in the evenings during the week so I'm not a heavy player so maybe that has something to do with it ,the other thing is when I started playing MWO I was really bad no I mean "really bad" Kinda thought after playing MW 4 Mercs for years that I was just gona stroll in and kick ass...........( Oh no not this time baby )
So my point is you play good or very good loose and your going down or no where because your team is , lets just say " not very good " and maybe that's because their new to the game and sure we all have to start somewhere .
So at the end of the day ya might as well flip a coin because skill has nothing to do with moving up tiers as far as I can see .

[PhoenixHawk OSF]

I have about the exact same experience as a lot of you guys: I do pretty well in a match, 350-600 damage, but the team gets stomped, and my PSR goes nowhere. That's not a reflection of my contribution to the team, that's an indication that the team lost, pure and simple.

Easiest proof of it: I scored 401 damage in one match and my PSR went down. Next match I scored 345 damage, we won, and my PSR went up. I did just about the exact same thing in both matches, but the win was the biggest factor.

Fortunately we won on the two matches where I scored 800+ damage tonight. I'd have been pissed if I'd done that much damage and it went down or stayed equal.

This system is highly flawed if it's meant to rank Pilot Skill. I think it also takes too much into consideration of when you were new..my KDR is only .69 because when I was starting out I would try to make a bad build work, thinking it was just me learning the ropes. That was some of it, but some of it also is that bad builds just don't work in this game. Now that I've learned beyond that, and average between 350-600 damage per match, I'm still firmly planted in Tier 5.

Edited by PhoenixHawk OSF, 09 October 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[Martallica]

Kinda found this funny the lovely Paul Inouye reckons where not playing as a team and will only be rewarded as a team , but what can you do if the second ya drop your team scatters to every corner of the map .

Clarification 5: My low Tier means I'm a horrible player
That really isn't the case. It's more along the lines of: you are not playing in a team based mind set. Remember, PSR calculations reward team play more than 'Rambo' or 'I'm the hero and will carry my team to victory' play styles. Being in Tier 4/5 means you can now adjust your game play to become more aware of what your team is doing as a whole and working together to get a victory. If you see your PSR progress bar move up, you will know you're getting better at this. Players in Tiers 3/2/1 all have the basics down and the higher the Tier, the more small/micro adjustments these players have made to maximize their ability to play as a team and adjust accordingly.

Edited by Martallica, 10 October 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[NCBronco]

I know I am not an elite player but I am staying at tier 4-5. I play my Ebon Jaguar most of the time -- I have a 1.61 kill ratio with the Ebon (169 kills to 105 deaths) -- and a (point) .97 win %... It seems like I should be a little higher

[SgtCerlok]

I have to weigh in here guys, not so much to help but to add more grief to the situation. The Tier system is a complete failure, as the win/loss of the team has nothing to do with the skills and effort of the team. I am at very low Tier 4, nearly Tier five. My win/ loss is, well lets say, loss/loss.... and this is due, as said by others, to the complete inept skill/ability/desire of the others in my team.

I, like everyone, was crap in the beginning, but over time, I realized my fun was as an LRM Boat Pilot and so I configured my Cata to be an Elite 1620 Artemis LRM 5's (6 Launchers) with Level 5 (1100Mtr) extended range and Level 5 (-12s) cool downs with Endo-Steel and Double Heat Sinks but at a very slow (57Kph) rain of death; I named her Hail Mary. I was 1800LRM but I placed in a command module and Beagle Active Probe, for faster acquisition. I write this so you can see that I have put my time into making, I believe, the best boat, without spending cash.

Now to the problem, as an LRM Boat, I require heavy assistance from every other Mech out there to sight and target the enemy; without this, I am useless. 19/20 matches, I am with some decent guys but the majority of the team are morons that just run off and do nothing but try to get solo kills, for their own satisfaction, and, as you can imagine, we are slaughtered. Most times, I have an enemy light Mech run all the way around the map and comes up on my six, and when I call for assistance, no one responds.

I'm getting slightly off track. My point is this, as an LRM Boat, I am at the complete mercy of the team I am with. I cannot engage the enemy without locks and they are usually few and far between and when I do get them, from the good players, the enemy are behind cover (90% of maps) and I am useless. At the end of the battle, the Pilot Ranking system is reflected, according to some, on your personal score and the team win/loss. This is completely flawed as all LRM Boat Pilots are useless without a team that is prepared to work with them and as the Tier system has me placed in Tier 4, how can I get out of this ranking when I am continually placed with pilots with no care or skill or are AFK, etc. When I am with a team that communicates (VIA VOICE) well and works as a team, I can and do score in the 600+ damage range with multiple kills.. Only today, my team and I were down 9 vs 6 and it looked bleak. The enemy team were pushing to take me out, so I was continually running away from the fight, firing backwards, at the hard locks the guys in the scrap were giving me and we ended up winning 12 vs 9.. A hard fought and awesome game with a great team of guys. Unfortunately, that was it, the next three games my teams ran off in all directions, no comms, no teamwork, no clue. I was picked off from behind in all three games, with no support.

Some serious thought needs to be put into how the Pilot ranking system is to work. As some guys have stated, they, like myself, try our hardest to work with the team and try to get a good amount of damage and or kills but, unlike the others, if I don't have someone to get those locks. I just sit and wait for the scout to find me. Then the system tells me, I'm not skilled enough to progress and demotes me.

Pirahna. Fix this hideous and completely failed system.

Edited by SgtCerlok, 20 October 2015 - 07:42 PM.

[Idealsuspect]

Goose, on 22 September 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

108 score + cap win = green arrow

AFK + cap win = green arrow

Yep with PGI AFKing is a proof of skill ^^

[MW222]

It's just the flow of development, the only problem is the flow is running in to a flush. It's going to take a while before who ever made the tier setup chose will remove one piece of anatomy from another and seeing day light again will fix this.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Martallica, on 10 October 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

Kinda found this funny the lovely Paul Inouye reckons where not playing as a team and will only be rewarded as a team , but what can you do if the second ya drop your team scatters to every corner of the map .

Clarification 5: My low Tier means I'm a horrible player
That really isn't the case. It's more along the lines of: you are not playing in a team based mind set. Remember, PSR calculations reward team play more than 'Rambo' or 'I'm the hero and will carry my team to victory' play styles. Being in Tier 4/5 means you can now adjust your game play to become more aware of what your team is doing as a whole and working together to get a victory. If you see your PSR progress bar move up, you will know you're getting better at this. Players in Tiers 3/2/1 all have the basics down and the higher the Tier, the more small/micro adjustments these players have made to maximize their ability to play as a team and adjust accordingly.

I agree that it's a team game. I disagree that the placement means you're in the wrong mindset. I've had games where I had a flank, had teammates near me, engaged the enemy in a location where they had sightlines and the availability to help that was advantageous for the team. They retreat because there is firing coming in the general direction, I get mowed down by the opposition.

One of the bigger issues is that even if I do a reasonable match score of around 250-350 you still go down or stay the same when you lose, or in the case of the scenario I just gave you get a match score around 150 because you died while trying to offer aid you go down even though you did what's best for the team.

Think of the people who lead the charge into an area and soak a ton of damage and likely do very little damage but allow others to flourish and actively engage. There is no reward for that behavior despite being critical for some battles to have that first person be willing to get in there and take that fire.

[MW222]

Mirkk Defwode, on 23 October 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

I agree that it's a team game. I disagree that the placement means you're in the wrong mindset. I've had games where I had a flank, had teammates near me, engaged the enemy in a location where they had sightlines and the availability to help that was advantageous for the team. They retreat because there is firing coming in the general direction, I get mowed down by the opposition.

One of the bigger issues is that even if I do a reasonable match score of around 250-350 you still go down or stay the same when you lose, or in the case of the scenario I just gave you get a match score around 150 because you died while trying to offer aid you go down even though you did what's best for the team.

Think of the people who lead the charge into an area and soak a ton of damage and likely do very little damage but allow others to flourish and actively engage. There is no reward for that behavior despite being critical for some battles to have that first person be willing to get in there and take that fire.

PGI is activity trying to herd everyone in to CW ala Eve on line and it's not going to work, two different mind sets to play. I just hope they get past this before they hose the whole game.

[Mawai]

Lots of folks have covered the basics of what is known.

Change in PSR in a match is based off win/loss and something similar to the match score - I believe that PGI said that the PSR change uses the same factors that go into the match score but may have different weightings. If you win it will go up. If you have a good match but lose it will stay even and if you have a great one it may still go up a bit.

It has not been said (and as far as I know it hasn't yet been figured out) how much the PSR value changes in relation to match performance.

As far as tiers go they are based on the PSR scores. From what I have seen they do not appear to be percentage based since I haven't yet heard of anyone's tier changing when they are not playing. This would tend to indicate an absolute scoring system. If the boundaries moved then some people near the tier threshold would find themselves changing tiers without playin g the game.

The PSR system has also been criticized for having a bias. It is easier to gain points than lose them unless you play badly all the time. It is also more challenging to get a high match score in lights over other mechs that usually do more damage (ACH likely excepted along with some truly gifted light pilots). These factors may lead to the PSR value and tier ranking indicating who plays more and who plays heavier weight classes more rather than which players are actually better.

For example, certain builds are more effective at getting high match scores than others. People who play those builds are more likely to earn PSR than those that play other builds that tend to be effective at winning (PPFLD with good aim) but do less spread damage.

Anyway, PGI should have the stats on this and it would be interesting to find out whether PSR is actually working properly or not.


Anecdotally, I personally haven't noticed much difference in the spread of match outcomes since the change to PSR. I have noticed that I seem to be dropping with more folks who don't stick together, focus fire and generally use tactics that will help them win ... performance appears to be much more randomly distributed in groups these days.

[Zetawolf]

Considering my average damage for the past 10 games is ~700 and my win/loss ratio for those games is 8/2, you would figure that would get me pretty far towards the next tier. Mind you, this is my first time playing in about 4 months so my stats should have been fresh as can be when I started. My bar went about halfway, which, to me seems a bit off.

My main issue with this whole thing however, is that this is the exact kind of elo system that creates "elo hell", meaning that essentially anyone who doesn't move out of tier 4 within a few matches is going to get trapped there forever, regardless of player skill. By making elo based almost entirely off of win/loss ratio, good players will always be brought down by bad ones. That's just the way these elo systems work.

I really hope the devs will rework this to be actually reflective of player skill, rather than luck of being on the right team or not, because lets face it: no matter how hard you try to be a team player, most people are not going to do the same themselves.

[Zetawolf]

OK, so I just played another two games.

1. Victory, match score 587 4 kills 6 assists 844 damage

2. Victory, match score 461 5 kills 5 assists 682 damage

And the bar moved.... nearly imperceptibly.

At the rate it seems to be going it would take 15-20 games exactly like my past two to get to rank 3.

Is this broken, or is it intentional for ranking up to take a ridiculously long time? Based on the criteria stated, I should have gained a large amount of rank points given that I won and achieved a high match score, which are the only things that affect rank point gain.