339 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

So your solution is for people to voluntarily use only bad builds?

Look PGI badly balanced the game. Then they said they would us quirks to bad bad designs balanced with good ones. Now they are refusing to actually use quirks to do that, at best quirkiness to T3.

Ideally meta should be such a tiny difference it only matters in top level competitive matches. Unfortunately that's not the case. Why don't you just say everyone should only play IS mechs until balance is fixed? That's just not a realistic option. The problem is the you're upset at players for playing not just what pgi made the game to be but what PGI encouraged. Look at all the contests and challenges PGIs put out around peak mechs/meta/cw. This isn't people exploiting anything - this is them playing how pgi is encouraging and rewarding them to play, and we are all yelling at pgi we want balance. The people crying against balance are a narrow group who are nowhere near tryhards. They are scrubs who want op stuff to make them feel like they're better than they are.

Again - nobody wants game balance more than people who enjoy competitive play. It's not just that a couple things are exploitable, it's that game balance overall is badly skewed and playing the op stuff is strongly rewarded and encouraged by pgi.



Would you work it into your CW deck instead of the other options? What would you replace with it?

I won't argue that by the mechanics of the game, it is rewarded. I will not agree that the challenges are to support that kind of gameplay and I will not draw a line between "good" and "bad" mechs. There are mechs inherently more suitable to the current meta than others, but it is the use of meta that draws the line. And no, I think Clans are supposed to be OP within their own niche and the balance there should come from tonnage limitations or number limitations (stated by PGI to be impossible though). When I only see TBRs, HBRs, and SCRs on the field and all sporting some form of laser meta, I call BS. If played non-meta, the TBR is a formidable opponent, but not an insurmountable one. Due to meta, there's no point in going against it unless you also have meta.

Where the numbers of players involved on either side are the same, you cannot apply real-world metaphors. A Tiger was meta versus the Sherman. It took 4 Shermans to down a Tiger and only one Sherman drove off (average). I don't have 4 non-meta-boats to your one meta mech though. So that balance cannot happen. Why not conform to the meta? Because if the game was meant to be played like that, the stock loadouts would reflect it.

You claim to want balance. Join me and lead by example. Full disclosure, I'll give you data on everything I got. Hell, I'll even play devil's advocate and use some meta builds. I got the bankroll, I can buy and outfit anything. I'll be on my unit's TS tomorrow night (Friday) 5pm-10pm MST. Link in my signature.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Would you work it into your CW deck instead of the other options? What would you replace with it?

For fun I have wanted to run, 2 BKs, a GHR and a Locust. Or I could do BK, Zues, Enforcer, Firestarter.

In CW I'm perfectly comfortable in a lot of mechs... Zues or Highlander with Gauss and triple LL/LPL is like my favorite thing ever in CW, I can harvest a lot of damage with that combo.

[Liquid Leopard]

The Grasshoppers have that one variant with the shoulder-mounted hardpoints, and that makes my Grasshopper purchase OK.

I thought surely one Black Knight variant would have a couple of useful high-mounted hardpoints like that.
Instead, all 4 variants have nearly identical hardpoints. The difference is whether the left arm has 1 hardpoint or 2.
And, the weapon perks are pretty "meh".

Well, I know from 2.5 years in this game that PGI doesn't go back and change hardpoints, no matter how lame they are.
But, they still have a chance to differentiate the Black Knights better in weapon perks.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

For fun I have wanted to run, 2 BKs, a GHR and a Locust. Or I could do BK, Zues, Enforcer, Firestarter.

In CW I'm perfectly comfortable in a lot of mechs... Zues or Highlander with Gauss and triple LL/LPL is like my favorite thing ever in CW, I can harvest a lot of damage with that combo.

I mean if you're playing to win. I've had a lot of success with the Zeus, it fit well in my deck when we were at 240 but now that it's 250 I got no reason not to go bigger. I also enjoy a bm with a std engine 3x erlls and a Gauss for sword and board, it does well at it.

The point though is that if I want to actually carry and drive wins I'm going to be in mechs from Phoenix Pack or older. The BK is, at best a derping around mech. We've had 2 years of those. Even IS/Clan balance issues aside we are way past due for something better than Sir Derpy McDerpton the 12th, Black Knight of the IS derping around brigade.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

I mean if you're playing to win. I've had a lot of success with the Zeus, it fit well in my deck when we were at 240 but now that it's 250 I got no reason not to go bigger. I also enjoy a bm with a std engine 3x erlls and a Gauss for sword and board, it does well at it.

The point though is that if I want to actually carry and drive wins I'm going to be in mechs from Phoenix Pack or older. The BK is, at best a derping around mech. We've had 2 years of those. Even IS/Clan balance issues aside we are way past due for something better than Sir Derpy McDerpton the 12th, Black Knight of the IS derping around brigade.

Eh let's see how the CT gets fixed. I don't know, I'm just being optimistic I guess, but that build I am describing is very dangerous to about 450 meters...

[MischiefSC]

cdlord, on 24 September 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

I won't argue that by the mechanics of the game, it is rewarded. I will not agree that the challenges are to support that kind of gameplay and I will not draw a line between "good" and "bad" mechs. There are mechs inherently more suitable to the current meta than others, but it is the use of meta that draws the line. And no, I think Clans are supposed to be OP within their own niche and the balance there should come from tonnage limitations or number limitations (stated by PGI to be impossible though). When I only see TBRs, HBRs, and SCRs on the field and all sporting some form of laser meta, I call BS. If played non-meta, the TBR is a formidable opponent, but not an insurmountable one. Due to meta, there's no point in going against it unless you also have meta.

Where the numbers of players involved on either side are the same, you cannot apply real-world metaphors. A Tiger was meta versus the Sherman. It took 4 Shermans to down a Tiger and only one Sherman drove off (average). I don't have 4 non-meta-boats to your one meta mech though. So that balance cannot happen. Why not conform to the meta? Because if the game was meant to be played like that, the stock loadouts would reflect it.

You claim to want balance. Join me and lead by example. Full disclosure, I'll give you data on everything I got. Hell, I'll even play devil's advocate and use some meta builds. I got the bankroll, I can buy and outfit anything. I'll be on my unit's TS tomorrow night (Friday) 5pm-10pm MST. Link in my signature.

You will never ever get 66% of people who play a fps pvp moba to happily play the role of redshirt and be doing good to have a kdr of 0.33. You'll absolutely never get an even mix of player skill along that line as people will graduate into Clans to get to slaughter hordes of other players for an average match.

you're wanting to take pve balancing into a pvp game. Beyond that the developers of Battletech said the whole Clan invasion balancing was terrible, because it was. Trying to repeat that error iisn't something we want.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

Eh let's see how the CT gets fixed. I don't know, I'm just being optimistic I guess, but that build I am describing is very dangerous to about 450 meters...

I was pugging with you last night. That thing goes down like it's trying to get a Senior date to the prom. Maybe a hitbox rebalance will help... we'll see.

[Victorion]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

-snip-

Very interesting, and basically exactly mirroring what I was experiencing in game vs them.

At long range, past 250-350m depending on your build and BK variant choice, they certainly have the damage per heat advantage.

At closer ranges though, it does definitely feel like I have the advantage when it comes to applying damage consistently in a manageable heat pattern. And these are only basic'd so far, I'm kind of salivating at the thought of how they are going to perform once I get them all elited.

I just had my best match, in any variant, hilariously in the variant that everyone considers the worst: The BK-6R





Finally had a very decent lance mate to pair up with, none other then the only guy that out damaged me, in a TBR-Prime.

I'm starting to feel that Frozen City Night is like, a Black Knight play ground, except not the type of play ground you'd want to bring your kids, because pew pew, everything dies.

Maneuver warfare (no not nascar) is where the BK shines, in my opinion. It feels far and above the most heavily armed and maneuverable IS Heavy, while still being XL friendly (god I hope it stays that way). I can move into a good position, make a kill, apply some damage, and when the hive comes after me, I can easily turn tail and reposition for a flanking attack against slower enemies. This is only going to get more profound when I speed tweak them.

I'm also learning that you can actually roll damage a little bit decently at close range against other enemy laser vomit builds. It's at long range that it seems I have a hard time spreading damage, which is interesting, though will most likely change come the 6th.

Oh, the build I used for this match was 4x LLas, 4x MLas, 2x AMS, 2T AMS ammo, XL350, 21 DHS.

One of the coolest running BK builds I've put together, as long as you don't do something foolish like panic alpha the 4x LLas like a scrub (Hint: I'm a scrub)

One of the most satisfying parts of this build is being able to literally just stare at certain missile boats, and hit them with the LLas, while watching them do absolutely no damage to you. Probably drives them nuts.

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

I was pugging with you last night. That thing goes down like it's trying to get a Senior date to the prom. Maybe a hitbox rebalance will help... we'll see.

I completely agree, that when under fire from multiple mechs and you find yourself without cover, you will die fairly quickly in a black knight.

However, I feel like if you're playing to its strength, which is high mobility warfare, peaking left and right out of cover, you can actually spread quite a bit of damage, particularly from laser builds.

This coupled with the fact that you put out more damage then quite a few other heavies means that if they do end up charging you to get you out of cover, they will usually pay with their life and you'll walk away. This has become a regular occurrence for me.

Interestingly enough, I fear a high damage AC build while I'm in my BK far more then a laser vomit build for that very reason.

This has lead me to actually fear dakka EBJ's over laserwolves.

Edited by Victorion, 24 September 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

I was pugging with you last night. That thing goes down like it's trying to get a Senior date to the prom. Maybe a hitbox rebalance will help... we'll see.

If you are talking about that one Terra Therma match, that isn't exactly a great representation of what it has to work with.

But still, the CT is too easy to hit from the side. I have been on both the giving and the receiving side of this.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well...

none of those can bring a heat manageable 63 pt laser vomit alpha at 340 m with 3 LPLs that reach out to 447m, with a 10% heat gen quirk whilst running 83 kph..

Fun fact, thats a ~54 damage alpha at 445 m..

I'm not trying to say its like comp level or anything, and it definitely has its limitations.. but its not TERRIBLE.

ref: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fce2ee15225d90b

If you just want to compare huge alphas at shorter ranges, with a lower cooling efficiency like that - a closer mock up would be a TBR with 1x CLPL and like 5 or 6 CMPLs (something like 365m optimal range with mod and TC).

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

If you are talking about that one Terra Therma match, that isn't exactly a great representation of what it has to work with.

But still, the CT is too easy to hit from the side. I have been on both the giving and the receiving side of this.

I saw you in like a dozen matches but to be fair it could have been ankle BK build. There were a lot of BK builds throwing out easy money the last few days.

Edited by MischiefSC, 24 September 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[Bloody]

yes those graphs do not show one important thing tho, the TBR only has to peak over a small portion of his torso to get his LPL alphas ( TBR-A ) and he can have 2 Jumpjets AND have a 10% speed advantage over the BK. Oh did we mention the better range etc ?

in any serious match, the BK would be dead before he even managed to get those underboob and underslung lasers to bear.

[Escef]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Lol, that's funny, if I am in a Dire I see a King Crab and think "Oh awesome, a huge target for my 84 point alpha that can at best return fire with 57 damage." But yeah, Stalker is better for sure, and I think the Banshee is also better.

Your 84 Alpha is a bunch of DoT that gets spread all across the KGCs front as the pilot torso rolls. Meanwhile, the Dire is taking the full 57 (or more, sometimes A LOT more) to the CT, because contrary to what a lot of people seem to think the Dire Wolf's CT is large and pretty easy to hit.

Edited by Escef, 24 September 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Deathlike]

Did I not say somewhere that the BK was "fat"?

Not even the arms can shield it properly.

[GeneralArmchair]

Escef, on 24 September 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Your 84 Alpha is a bunch of DoT that gets spread all across the KGCs front as the pilot torso rolls. Meanwhile, the Dire is taking the full 57 (or more, sometimes A LOT more) to the CT, because contrary to what a lot of people seem to think the Dire Wolf's CT is large and pretty easy to hit.

Not if the dire wolf knows how to aim. The crab's CT is huge and easy to hit from most angles.

Even if you do spread upwards of 30% of the damage away from the CT, the direwolf is still outgunning you.

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 24 September 2015 - 05:38 PM.

[Funkin Disher]

Have to say, a big XL engine and 8 MPL works pretty well. Catch a non-assault from behind and one click will end them.

Now if only there was a way for me to duck or crouch to stop my stupid big CT head from popping up over cover like a 75 ton whack-a-mole.

Edited by Funkin Disher, 24 September 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

WTF??????

First of all, can't do 3 LPL and Dual gauss without an XL.
3 LL and dual gauss is probably the best you can do. So 57 damage at 495 (with range mod), vs 84 damage at 445 (range mod). Yeah no, King Crab builds do not out do Dire Wolf builds. There is a reason 0 King Crabs are used in competitive play and Dires are used. Occasionally you will see a Stalker.


BTW, did you know that 2 cLPL and 2 Gauss rifles is a 56 damage alpha at 600+ m, vs the King Crab at 57 dmg at 495 m. Then you add 3-4 cERMLs for more alpha power on the Dire...

There really is no comparison.

Fun fact: Direwolf can't even mount duel gauss rifles without an xl engine.

[Escef]

GeneralArmchair, on 24 September 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

Not if the dire wolf knows how to aim. The crab's CT is huge and easy to hit from most angles.

Even if you do spread upwards of 30% of the damage away from the CT, the direwolf is still outgunning you.

Using the numbers given, a 30% spread drops the concentrated fire of the Dire from 84 to 58.8, which is only slightly above the figure of 57 given for the KGC. So, no, if the KGC can spread "upwards of 30%", the Dire is NOT outgunning the KGC.

When the numbers you pull out of your hindquarters still prove you wrong, it might be time to rethink your hindquarters.

[Ultimax]

Nightshade24, on 24 September 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Fun fact: Direwolf can't even mount duel gauss rifles without an xl engine.

Fun Fact: Dire Wolf doesn't die when it loses one side torso. Unlike the XL Crab that does.

[Spare Parts Bin]

I have not seen enough of the BK to make a decision. I do love WHKs. GL HH

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightshade24, on 24 September 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Fun fact: Direwolf can't even mount duel gauss rifles without an xl engine.

Dire Wolf has a Clan XL, might as well be a std engine, its not like being a zombie in a Dire is that useful.

Seriously do you really believe what you are saying? I'm shocked.