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Cowardice....the New Tier 3 Meta?


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#41 Jman5

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:32 AM

View PostTorgun, on 24 September 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Personally I see a lot more "brave" players that choose really bad times to rush out of cover at the opponents and get decimated, then whine the rest of the match how we're all cowards for not doing the same thing as him.

It happens to me occasionally at the start of the match. 9 times out of 10 my team takes a predictable route and will follow close behind me if I set the pace. However, those 1 out of 10 games my team will collectively and suddenly stop dead in their tracks and just hold a random position. If I'm not looking for it, I will sometimes find myself way too far ahead, isolated, and unable to retreat across open ground.

Holding positions of strength can be a viable tactic on certain maps and game modes, but when it's done haphazardly in weird spots, it usually indicates you have a weak team that's playing scared. They almost always end poorly. However, I do try my best not to complain in chat. After all, if I had paid attention to my team's position better I wouldn't have thrown away my mech.

#42 Mister Blastman

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:34 AM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 24 September 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

who is driving the F'ing UH ShortBus... LOL! ;)


Listen to music like this for a while (I do /every day/) and you'll end up in a wonderful place. I dare you to listen to the entire album in one sitting with the lights off. :)



(and before the accusations, I'm straight-edge, baby.)

#43 Scout Derek

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:38 AM

I'm watching this thread to make sure unconstructive posts are removed and/or anything that if off-topic.

Play it nice, and the thread stays, do the opposite, and we go to K-Town.

-Scout Derek

#44 izzycat218

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:46 AM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 24 September 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I'm not here to wave a Tier Epeen. That is the tier I'm at, and that is the gameplay I'm getting. If you are in a different tier I'm wondering if your gameplay is different or is it just my luck to get a bunch canary yellow PANSIES for teammates every game.


Tire 5 observations. We group up well and that's about it. Once grouped 9/10 of team stands still enemy encircles team kills them in cross fire. Wish my VoIP worked again.

#45 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:48 AM

I turned my voip off...too many wanna-be Kerenskys.....and cursing.

#46 Shae Starfyre

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:51 AM

View PostScout Derek, on 24 September 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I'm watching this thread to make sure unconstructive posts are removed and/or anything that if off-topic.

Play it nice, and the thread stays, do the opposite, and we go to K-Town.

-Scout Derek


(curses under his breath as he goes back to re-read the main topic)

Well, nothing I wrote has anything to do with the topic; you can obliterate my posts (mutters about Cdlord's comment on Tiers, and Alistair's List). :)

Edited by Aphoticus, 24 September 2015 - 10:54 AM.


#47 Scout Derek

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:02 AM

View PostAphoticus, on 24 September 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:


(curses under his breath as he goes back to re-read the main topic)

Well, nothing I wrote has anything to do with the topic; you can obliterate my posts (mutters about Cdlord's comment on Tiers, and Alistair's List). :)

That is, when I get over there to clean up the other posts.

#48 lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:10 AM

Dunno how to explain this...

But with the new MM/PSR there's "Upper Tier" matches, and "Lower Tier" matches.

Tier 3's are caught in a limbo of sorts. We get flip flopped between the two, depending on time of day. I'd gamble to say that the majority of the player base is T3 or less, so the T3's for the majority get placed with Lower Tier matches and deal with... I don't know a PC way to put it... less than optimal tactical decisions made by newer or willfully dense players.

If a T3 is just used to those tactics, then suddenly gets put in with Upper Tier matches, it might be hard to break that kneejerk reflex for them, especially if all they do is solo and haven't had a chance to group up with upper tier players. I'd also argue that region has a significant role to play in tactics too. Not pointing fingers... but you all know what I'm talking about.

#49 Blue Boutique

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:24 AM

Even in an assault, you need to watch your minimap to determine where your teammates are deploying. Its ignorance if you think that everyone is going to save your assault mech when you're out of position.

#50 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:47 AM

How is this new?

#51 Sarlic

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:59 AM

View PostLordMelvin, on 24 September 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

In all shooters there's an element of "I don't want to take damage so I'll hide until I get free hits." In a game like mech warrior where getting caught in a firing line can mean agonizing death I can understand the apprehension.

I've also noticed that a lot of players don't change target locks. So being the first person in sight usually means every LRM in the game will be pointed at you until you die.

I had a few incredibly frustrating losses (pushing out to engage, getting ripped to pieces, and going to spectator only to see my team waiting two grids behind and staring at the ground. So I plugged my headset in and played some Mech Commander and my win rate went us considerably. Granted, I'm in Tier 4 but it's a proven fact that taking initiative will cause at least some of the lemmings to follow.


Problem is that we have alot of target fixation around aswell. In other words when people lock a target he or she usually keep the target locked. Even when short locked they most try want to lock the same target again. Instead of focusing fire where the friendly main pack is, they have their own target fixation instead.

I have been in plenty of games which is very frustating (not the right word.. More dissappointed) to see that everyone have their invidual target. So no sharing target going around and no focus fire thus making the game a loss because nobody bothered to focus fire for example on a Direwolf.

For example: Deathballing is another thing: one target pops up and everyone fires away at the same target. Two, three or even four and the fire is always split due the multiple targets.

I wish there was some kind of system to lay out priority targets. Different color perhaps on th Dorito or whatever. Now you can call them on D for Delta prio or A for Alpha prio but it doenst help much if it gets ignored.

And a other thing to mention is that there are still plenty of people out there who does not press Q for a team overview of health and more and especially not R for target information.

Which comes to the very point that we are still missing out decent tools of improving communication and we still have to deal with a terrible VOIP quality.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 September 2015 - 12:07 PM.


#52 Apnu

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:10 PM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 24 September 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Why is it team after team sees an enemy push and runs AWAY from it? What are your thoughts? What do you hope to accomplish by giving your enemy your rear armor? Especially when you have a very advantageous position to defend from like a nice hill top bristling with Laser barfing mechs?

He'res what happens kids. The mechs that are too slow (usually your big gun assaults) cannot keep up with you when half the team decides "SCREW YOU GUYS, I'm GOING HOME!!!"

They get left behind and get swarmed....

you lose your primary damage soakers and damage dealers...good start...

then the guys who didn't notice you running leaving trails of coolant behind you die next. Thats usually guys like me, guys who are focusing on doing damage to the mechs moving up into position, not noticing you all are fleeing...

By the time you realize whats going on, you are down 4-5 mechs, including your bigger damage dealers, or mechs too slow to keep up. Once a deathball like that gets momentum going it can and will chase you down and wipe the floor with whats left of your team. Doubly so if there are lots of dakka mixed in with LRMS and ECM...by then its too late to to try to form a firing line, you've lost your big mechs and your slower fire support/lrm mechs and are left to face a wall of pissed off angry and more importantly FRESH assault mechs with your lightweight mediums and heavies that where fast enough to flee originally...Good luck with that.

TL;DR

Stand and fight...the hell are you in a mech for if you arent going to face the enemy?


I think what you're talking about has been going on before under the old Elo system. I've been seeing this for ages: some games the team is gun shy, especially if the other team is aggressive, and has a flanking element that harries the cowering blob's rear. When that happens the game is over. The timid team gets confused and disorganized, starts getting picked off and yelling at each other and once the score is 4+ for the Red Doritos, the game ending push comes.

I think what's changed is new blood has moved into different tiers and the old paradigm is changing because of that.

Case in point: I believe PGI took out Elo and let the MM pair up whoever was around and then collected data until the Sept. 22nd patch when they put PSR (which is a modified Elo system) back in. During that time, I was suddenly seeing really good players in my games that I hadn't seen since before Elo. Game play went bonkers, I'd see packs of highly skilled lights and mediums glom together and tear everything up. I watched obvious noobs doing noob things and blowing holes in friendly back armor. I watched those same noobs collapse firing lines into columns, or otherwise close off an active fire-lane instead of repositioning so both could shoot the same enemy. I watched so many other stupid instances of FF and breathtakingly lacking battlefield awareness.

On top of all that, with the Elo removed, the MM was clumping goods with goods and bads with bads. And I could tell some players, who probably thought they were really clever, sync dropping the public queue. Making the odds of being on a lopsided team even worse. It became rare to see an even game, 75% of my matches I tracked ended in 12-3 or worse ROFTLstomps.

It was horrible, so bad, I skipped the Territorial Challenge. I just couldn't find the fun trying to get 300 or 400 match points when I knew I'd be on a team full if idiots.

Then the Sept. 22 patch hit, PSR opened its doors, and the past two nights of games, at least for me, went back to the Elo era. I had many more even score games, still streaky, but that's the norm for my average play, but it was familiar.

But not quite the same, I see many new names I've not seen before and FF is still a serious problem in my Tier (Tier 3).

But teams being timid and/or confused... that's been a thing for a long while.

#53 Revis Volek

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:29 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 24 September 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:


Did I say that in my satirical example? Let's extract a portrait based on the imagery and metaphors I posed...

Tier 1: The community fears meta so meta must be bad and the easy way! They are tryhard murderers! Oh and you can farm damage with streaks and be tier 1! (only to be killed once you are expected to carry versus players running true meta and viable builds)

Tier 2: Skill, meta and some fun shuffled in (this one is self-explanatory?)

Tier 3: Scared players, bad tactics = die a lot. Plus an assortment of button mashers who don't know how to combo a jump-in kick into a dragon punch or a crouching medium kick -> standing fireball.

Tier 4: I'm not scared of anything! This is fun! Big robots, pew pew!

Tier 5: Ladeelaa I'm going to run what I want because I want to! I do what I want! (all over the map)


So from my example above, Tier 1 and 2 both have skilled players. Tier 3 is an odd mix. Tier 4 doesn't know any better and Tier 5 players just don't care. Or did I miss your sarcasm? I think it is entirely possible but I don't think you intended any. If you did, I apologize.

I'm a writer; I'm used to condensing stuff into small amounts of words with maximum imagery.



Some Sarcasm, because i knew you were not really thinking that the entirety of the middle tier was window lickers....but also kinda serious in the fact that posting that BS on the forums is only going to further the dreaded "Forum Tier Warfare" that everyone is so afraid of.

But once you elaborated it is much clearer now so thanks. Tier 3 IS a hodgepodge which kinda stinks but at the same time is ok, i get to play with everyone and i myself am a comp/tryhard (whatever you wanna call me) guy who has been forced to take a break from group play since his unit has been MIA, some are still around, McGral, Saxie, BBj, Madcat and others but for the most part we went IS and our Unit died. Which stinks because i am now seeing myself stuck in the solo environment that can be very diffrerent from drop to drop.

But i dont see quite what the OP is describing in my games...its not that bad for me i should say. But i can see that even getting that last 12% or so of the Tier 3 bar filled is going to be quite a task. But tier 2 here i come!

#54 Dinochrome

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:33 PM

Hailz Mechwarriors:

Well this is interesting, it has been stated all T3 are cowards and if you are a coward you are T3. That is the most bogus connection I have ever heard, LOL. What convoluted logic produced this result? This statement is simply a pathetic attempt to open the door to the idea that one tier is better than another. Of course you understand this is only my opinion. LOL

#55 Red Shrike

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:34 PM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 24 September 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Why is it team after team sees an enemy push and runs AWAY from it?

You don't get respawns, therefore no one wants to get killed.
So what do you do when the enemy comes for you but you don't want to die? You run.

While "Live to fight another day" is a thing to live by, it's not applicable in MWO. Something which a lot of players seem to forget.

#56 Mister Blastman

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:35 PM

View PostDarthRevis, on 24 September 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

But i dont see quite what the OP is describing in my games...its not that bad for me i should say. But i can see that even getting that last 12% or so of the Tier 3 bar filled is going to be quite a task. But tier 2 here i come!


Yeah I'm not trying to perpetuate forum tier warfare at all. The tiers aren't a bad thing at all. They segregate you into a population of players that should hopefully give you better quality games. But I do look at tier warriors with cynicism as much as folks who are bad but think they are good.

Just be. If you're good--you know it, other people will know it without you having to say a word--there is nothing to prove.

It is quite possible to get to Tier 2 running non-meta builds. I've done it since I started playing again in August (when it placed me at 4.5 due to lack of games all year) and made it into tier 2 using junk like Highlanders with PPCs+ACs, Awesomes and Summoners.

#57 Red Shrike

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:38 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 24 September 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:


Did I say that in my satirical example? Let's extract a portrait based on the imagery and metaphors I posed...

Tier 1: The community fears meta so meta must be bad and the easy way! They are tryhard murderers! Oh and you can farm damage with streaks and be tier 1! (only to be killed once you are expected to carry versus players running true meta and viable builds)

Tier 2: Skill, meta and some fun shuffled in (this one is self-explanatory?)

Tier 3: Scared players, bad tactics = die a lot. Plus an assortment of button mashers who don't know how to combo a jump-in kick into a dragon punch or a crouching medium kick -> standing fireball.

Tier 4: I'm not scared of anything! This is fun! Big robots, pew pew!

Tier 5: Ladeelaa I'm going to run what I want because I want to! I do what I want! (all over the map)


So from my example above, Tier 1 and 2 both have skilled players. Tier 3 is an odd mix. Tier 4 doesn't know any better and Tier 5 players just don't care. Or did I miss your sarcasm? I think it is entirely possible but I don't think you intended any. If you did, I apologize.

If this holds true, I should get myself into Tier 5. Because despite being in Tier 4, the players I go up against know damn well what they're doing and how to conform to the meta.

#58 Revis Volek

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 01:09 PM

View PostTimberwolf581, on 24 September 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

If this holds true, I should get myself into Tier 5. Because despite being in Tier 4, the players I go up against know damn well what they're doing and how to conform to the meta.



Conforming to meta and actually using it well are two very different things in my experience.

Edited by DarthRevis, 24 September 2015 - 01:09 PM.


#59 MischiefSC

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 01:10 PM

Because some people play the game lottery style. They just hope their team does a lot of damage while they hide in the back, hoping to move up and clean up end of round. It only works if your team was going to win anyway.

These are the people with the low win/loss but high kdr. They are, in the end, dead weight and a lot of why most groups of players on voip are no match for an organized team.

#60 Bigbacon

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 01:28 PM

on the flip side...how many times do you push and then realize everyone else stood there while half their team was occupied and did absolutely nothing?





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