223 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

Cementi, on 29 January 2016 - 02:02 AM, said:

Start testing with the current heat scale but put in speed reductions at 17%, 30%, 50%, 66% and 83%. Those are approximately where the move penalties are in TT. Make them reduce your speed by 10% per category so that at 83% you would have your speed cut by 50%. Who knows this alone may be enough and you will not have to go further.

I think the heatsink change we recently saw was a baby step in the right direction, gradually continuing down that patch would be nice. I really like your proposed idea of slowly lessening handling as you heat up. Even if my Timby heat cap was cut by 40%, I could still poke and hide with my 61 point alpha, with a higher frequency if cooling was increased. With your penalty, spiking to that heat would severely limit one's retreat after such an alpha, I like it. I do hate random ammo explosions and stuff like that though. I'd rather have as much of the game left to skill as possible.

[Widowmaker1981]

Heat scale penalties i can get behind If you did something like the following:

Have an initial heatbar with a max value equal to what we have now -30 which acts exactly like our current heatbar, except when you go past 100% instead of shutting down you move onto the 2nd heatbar, which has a cap of 30 and damaging heat effects imported from the TT heat scale that make sense for MWO.

What some people are suggesting, that we decrease to a 30 cap total and have TT style effects from the beginning of the bar is utterly ridiculous and would remove every single heat generating weapon from the game, since it would be impossible to fire them without receiving negative effects (firing a SINGLE ERPPC, EVER, would cause chances for shutdown and ammo explosion, LOL)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 29 January 2016 - 04:53 AM.

[Greyhart]

Widowmaker1981, on 29 January 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

Heat scale penalties i can get behind If you did something like the following:

Have an initial heatbar with a max value equal to what we have now -30 which acts exactly like our current heatbar, except when you go past 100% instead of shutting down you move onto the 2nd heatbar, which has a cap of 30 and damaging heat effects imported from the TT heat scale that make sense for MWO.

What some people are suggesting, that we decrease to a 30 cap total and have TT style effects from the beginning of the bar is utterly ridiculous and would remove every single heat generating weapon from the game, since it would be impossible to fire them without receiving negative effects (firing a SINGLE ERPPC, EVER, would cause chances for shutdown and ammo explosion, LOL)

Actually not a bad idea.

[Khobai]

Quote

Are two lasers hitting the same location at the same time a serious problem? No
Are two AC5s hitting the same location at the same time a serious problem? No

irrelevant. no one uses just two lasers or two AC/5s. Those are ineffective builds in the current meta.

people BOAT similar weapons in QUANTITY. That means 6+ lasers or 3-6 AC/5s.

And yes convergence is a problem then.

Quote

Have an initial heatbar with a max value equal to what we have now -30 which acts exactly like our current heatbar, except when you go past 100% instead of shutting down you move onto the 2nd heatbar, which has a cap of 30 and damaging heat effects imported from the TT heat scale that make sense for MWO.

If you go that route, the first heatbar should be equal to your # of heatsinks. SHS add +1. DHS add +2. So if you have 20 DHS your first heatbar would be 20*2 = 40. So you could generate 40 heat without any penalties and the next 30 heat beyond that would be the penalty heat bar.

Thats how battletech works. In battletech heatsinks add capacity. The more heatsinks you have the more weapons you can fire without suffering penalties.

In battletech:

A mech that has 10 DHS can fire 20 heat worth of weapons without penalty and 50 heat worth of weapons before shutting down.

But a mech that has 20 DHS can fire 40 heat worth of weapons without penalty and 70 heat worth of weapons before shutting down.

More heatsinks = higher heat capacity and more of a buffer before suffering heat penalties.

Edited by Khobai, 29 January 2016 - 10:27 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Things I'd like to see out of a heatscale change:

50% heat: Hud starts to get "Static-y" begins to shake slightly, mech starts to react more sluggish.
75% heat: increase in static hud, more "steam" occluding view. Additional slowness to the mech's torso twist/arm aiming. Increase in covergence of weapons [weapons "spread" more as the small motors used to allign the weapons systems struggle to keep up with the increase in heat.
100% heat: 50% mech slowdown in all areas, internal structure begins taking damage, high risk of ammo explosion beyond this threshhold [within 2-3 seconds being beyond this threshhold as to not imedately penalize hitting the override key.] Hud basically nonexistant at this point. Greying[or some form of vision obscurity] around the pilots vision to simulate cooking in the cockpit.
125% heat: 25% chance of instant death + stacking penalty's from the 100% tier.
150% heat: instant explosion.

This gives the ability to ride the heat curve and even function just beyond the limit's of overheating, however punishes people who try to get that last ditch alpha that would simply shut them down. It allows one to utilize override while still punishing you for going too far beyond that recommended heat cap. It also stacks penalty's at lower heat tiers, and encourages a more mixed variation of weapons. This is of course, just a sample idea and not finalized numbers, but an idea of what I'd like to see.

Heat should matter, Battlemechs and Omnimechs both struggle with high heat levels, that's why there's a heatscale in Battletech to begin with.

Ammo Explosions at lower heat levels tend to be relatively unfun, but using movement peanlty's to help convey the sluggish nature of mechs when heated up makes enough sense in my mind.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 29 January 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

irrelevant. no one uses just two lasers or two AC/5s.

Actually, it is relevant, very relevant.

If the problem is not consistent unless weapons start to get boated beyond a certain threshold, then convergence isn't actually the problem, it is alphas past that threshold. For convergence to be an actual issue, it would have to be a problem throughout, not just within a specific (and consistent) case.

kapusta11, on 29 January 2016 - 01:38 AM, said:

You don't get it. Heat is not a problem. In TT BK with 3 LPLs and 5 ML could fire all its weapons EVERY turn with no penalties applied whatsoever.

No it wouldn't, even using TT numbers for weapons it wouldn't. The laser vomit BK has 19 DHS and produces 45 (4 more heat than the current generates minus quirks) heat if using TT values.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 January 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually, it is relevant, very relevant.

If the problem is not consistent unless weapons start to get boated beyond a certain threshold, then convergence isn't actually the problem, it is alphas past that threshold

no the problem is convergence. alphas past a certain threshold are not possible without convergence.

[wanderer]

Quote

This is why I advocate a heat scale without ammo explosions. Should a form of punishment exist? Sure. Not arbitrary random death determined by RNGesus though.

That's why I say it should be overheat -damage- (and not in huge chunks, but DOT randomly applied in increasingly large chunks as you push towards 100%) on ammo. This means damaged ammo isn't instantly destroyed the second you start running hot, and even if random damage causes ammo destruction, the normal 10% odds of actual detonation apply, not some 100% BLAM DEAD.

Ditto shutdowns. People would simply leave their override engaged, and adding the "MUST SLAP OVERRIDE" to the game just clutters things. I'd rather see potential heatsink damage instead- again, small bits at first, going up over time.

Overheat should gradually reduce engine efficiency. A 'Mech at 50% shouldn't be as agile as a 'Mech at 10%, and one pushing shutdown should be downright sluggish for it's type.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 29 January 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

no the problem is convergence. alphas past a certain threshold are not possible without convergence.

You are moving the goal post.

If the problem is only with high alphas, not alphas in general, then having converge is not a problem, the problem is only specific to high alphas. Ironically enough those high alphas tend to only be possible through energy weapons (or in rare cases Splatapult/Splat Doge) so I'm pretty sure convergence isn't the real issue at hand.

Every time you spout off about how convergence is an issue, what you mean to say is high alphas with convergence is the issue, which is very different, and solving it is different as well.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 January 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Every time you spout off about how convergence is an issue, what you mean to say is high alphas with convergence is the issue,

no convergence is an issue even with low damage alphas. because it fundamentally changes the properties of weapons.

two medium lasers are supposed to hit two different locations

when they always hit the same location, they now become like one weapon, and weapon balance fundamentally changes as a result

thats why PGI had to increase the heat of medium lasers from 3 to 4. And its why PGI had to buff large lasers because medium lasers were too good due to convergence.

Convergence is why we cant have weapons with battletech stats in MWO and why theyve had to radically alter the stats of weapons to try and bandaid convergence.

Convergence has always been a systemic underlying problem in this game. period.

Edited by Khobai, 29 January 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Let's just start with putting the I.S. Heavy Laser cluster back to a GH of 2.

Then if that does not work, we can look at "increasing cool downs" on ALL fired weapons based on damage generated. Example:

15 point Alpha (LOL I know) no CD increase.
25 point Alpha + 5% CD increase to ALL fired weapons, (groupings matters not)
30 point Alpha +10% CD increase to ALL fired weapons, (groupings matters not)
35 point Alpha +15% CD increase to ALL fired weapons, (groupings matters not)
40 point Alpha +20% CD increase to ALL fired weapons, (groupings matters not)
etc
etc
etc
etc

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 29 January 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

no convergence is an issue even with low damage alphas. because it fundamentally changes the properties of weapons.

two medium lasers are supposed to hit two different locations

when they always hit the same location, they now become like one weapon, and weapon balance fundamentally changes as a result

Forcing weapons to hit different locations is going to require differences in balancing too, for example how do you deal with builds like dual Gauss who can just chain their shots so that they can hit consistently without ever spreading all over the place like lasers would? You basically ruin the ability of smaller boat-able weapons to even keep up with massive weapons. That and how do you mess with weapons like LBX and SRMs who already have CoF? You going to make them spread even further when firing simultaneously, forcing the SRM2 to somehow be even more worthless?

[Khobai]

Quote

Forcing weapons to hit different locations is going to require differences in balancing too

I didnt say thats what they should do.

I simply explained why convergence is a problem.

[Variant1]

MWO already has a heatscale otherwise we would be able to shoot infinetely. There is nothing fun about having a random chance to shutdown, rng ammo explosion and especially motion blur. Lasers are a hot weapon where as balistics are not they as a consequence are ammo reliant. This proposal not only makes it worse for laser weapons it also nerfs ppcs and makes it impossible to carry multiple weapons in combination due to the penalties. What instead should be applied when you get to 80% heat is your movement speed should get reduced like in MW4.

To all the scrubs complaining about the so called "laser vomit" fail to realize that most mechs have energy hardpoints so having lasers in general is unavoidable. If you really want to make lasers balanced again i suggest we removed the stupid borked quirk system that severely decreases the TTK.

Edited by Variant1, 29 January 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[wanderer]

Convergence just means that whatever combination of weapons does things best for maximum damage to a single location, whether it be ballistic or energy (missiles already spread regardless) will be dominant.

Heat simply is the greatest tool for controlling the weapon type that generates the most heat (energy)- but if we actually have a heat scale, it will act as a check to other weapon systems as well, slowing down the overall fire rate.

IMHO, you need both for a proper solution. Heck, the absolutely simplest and dumbest would be setting convergence to a stable distance point at like 4000m or so, meaning pinpoint convergence is effectively dead. I'd rather see binary convergence as a way of making sensors and locks important to all weapon systems.

Get weapons away from Death Star modes and put in a heat scale, and TTK will increase to the point where we don't need massive structure buffs- and incidentally, it'll probably help smooth out some of the recent durability issues of IS vs. Clan in the process.

[Mystere]

Cementi, on 29 January 2016 - 02:02 AM, said:

Start testing with the current heat scale but put in speed reductions at 17%, 30%, 50%, 66% and 83%. Those are approximately where the move penalties are in TT. Make them reduce your speed by 10% per category so that at 83% you would have your speed cut by 50%. Who knows this alone may be enough and you will not have to go further.

50% speed reduction for lights? Fantastic!

[wanderer]

Quote

for example how do you deal with builds like dual Gauss who can just chain their shots so that they can hit consistently without ever spreading all over the place like lasers would?

If you've got a distant point-of-convergence, everything will hit a bit "off" from center...but each gun will hit a different spot. You'd have to adjust your aim with each shot to bring the other gun into line- and even then, you'll have to practice.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 January 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

IMHO, you need both for a proper solution. Heck, the absolutely simplest and dumbest would be setting convergence to a stable distance point at like 4000m or so, meaning pinpoint convergence is effectively dead. I'd rather see binary convergence as a way of making sensors and locks important to all weapon systems.

DIdn't we have some form of that on the PTS but was shut down by the loud crying?

Edited by Mystere, 29 January 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 29 January 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

If you've got a distant point-of-convergence, everything will hit a bit "off" from center...but each gun will hit a different spot. You'd have to adjust your aim with each shot to bring the other gun into line- and even then, you'll have to practice.

And you hurt mechs like the King Crab or anything with weapon hardpoints really spaced out. Do you know why part of the reason the Gaussapult was so strong back before we had HSR and immediate convergence? Simply because its hardpoints were so close to each other and the cockpit that not having perfect converge wasn't a big deal. Basically you only further encourage running weapons in the torso as opposed to the arm, like say PPCs on the new Whammy, in the torso instead of the arms.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 January 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[MysticLink]

Why does every play style that people can't face have to be adjusted by pgi?

There is already ghost heat. If they have high alpha team with lost of lasers, and you have auto cannons and srms, make them move on them, make them pay for their ghost heat.

But other wise if you want to trade the same amount, then get a high alpha and do the same. Adjust your play style, pick the mech for that style, and play!

Stop complaining all day. Too much complaining is going to ruin this game. People will complain about autocannons if they nerf lasers, and then we are going to see slow shooting high heat autocannons.

Then when people all switch to gauss, that will be nerfed and have high heat as well.