223 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 January 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

No it wouldn't, even using TT numbers for weapons it wouldn't. The laser vomit BK has 19 DHS and produces 45 (4 more heat than the current generates minus quirks) heat if using TT values.

You're right, bad example. 2 cLPL 4 cERML Timberwolf with 24 DH could fire every turn and spend 8 excess heat on movement, JJs and other actions or 12 heat once in a while.

But that was not the point of what I was talking about in my previous post.

Edited by kapusta11, 29 January 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[wanderer]

Um, the Gaussapult never had convergence issues because frankly, convergence was a moot point and turned off. That happened well before HSR. Besides, set the distance point far enough away and even same-location weapons are going to have a chance of not hitting the same location, never mind ones mounted on different arms.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

kapusta11, on 29 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

You're right, bad example. 2 cLPL 4 cERML Timberwolf with 24 DH could fire every turn and spend 8 excess heat on movement, JJs and other actions or 12 heat once in a while.

But that was not the point of what I was talking about in my previous post.

Well I get that energy boats are sustainable in TT more so than in MWO, but that is the cost of making heat management a thing, if I could consistently make a mech that was always heat neutral I wouldn't have to manage heat. Not to mention those aren't the most threatening builds in TT (especially since the Timmy tends to be over-BV'd). Trying to compare the two is a little odd when it comes to this.

wanderer, on 29 January 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Um, the Gaussapult never had convergence issues because frankly, convergence was a moot point and turned off.

When the game was originally in CB, it took time for all weapons to adjust to the range your reticle was looking at, it was around the time HSR began to be introduced that this was adjusted to instant convergence, but that was NOT always the case, and during those days the Gaussapult made things easy with its hardpoint location simply because it didn't have to worry about it and could make good snapshots. That is the point though, forcing convergence to a set long range distance will always help mechs that are already naturally good and punish those with far off hardpoints.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 January 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[wanderer]

You know what it is now?

Everything hits the same spot. This is by far, top of the line, absolutely the worst enemy of the game. It wrecks the damage model and forces almost unbelievable quirking for armor and structure to "compensate".

I honestly -do not care- if one 'Mech has wider spread than the other. Scratch that. I do, but it's because it means a new way that a chassis gets pluses and minuses.

I care that none of them get to precision-blast people at any range with iron sights. That's the big problem. If you put your crosshairs CT on a target within reasonable range, your guns should hit.

They need to stop hitting the same exact spot. In a predictable manner, but they need to stop punching mega-damage combined hits with zero spread. This beats, by an incalculable amount any potential +/- discussion of how one robot's guns spread less than the other's. The problem is spread = zero unless the gun in question does so, in which case gun = garbage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 29 January 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

I do, but it's because it means a new way that a chassis gets pluses and minuses.

It's not new, that has been the case for a long time, just look at some of the best mechs currently, and look at their hardpoints. Most asym builds would just have to shift their aim appropriately but others like the Banshee would suffer minimal issues because the hardpoints they rely on are already pretty close. It does however make mechs like the King Crab and non Hellbringer clan heavies even worse (the Summoner and Ebjag being hit the hardest).

[Variant1]

wanderer, on 29 January 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

You know what it is now?

Everything hits the same spot. This is by far, top of the line, absolutely the worst enemy of the game. It wrecks the damage model and forces almost unbelievable quirking for armor and structure to "compensate".

I honestly -do not care- if one 'Mech has wider spread than the other. Scratch that. I do, but it's because it means a new way that a chassis gets pluses and minuses.

I care that none of them get to precision-blast people at any range with iron sights. That's the big problem. If you put your crosshairs CT on a target within reasonable range, your guns should hit.

They need to stop hitting the same exact spot. In a predictable manner, but they need to stop punching mega-damage combined hits with zero spread. This beats, by an incalculable amount any potential +/- discussion of how one robot's guns spread less than the other's. The problem is spread = zero unless the gun in question does so, in which case gun = garbage.

Or we could just make all mechs Center Torso really small so you wont get cored so easily we could also remove quirks that help the high alpha meta. Aiming is not the enemy btw its called skill.

[wanderer]

Right now, hardpoint placement is more a matter of high/low, with same-section placement having no difference on spread, merely your odds of firing past cover. This'll add in "has tight weapons cluster for smaller spread" and if it encourages stacking weapons in one spot?

Well, we know how it is with the Hunchback. You'll be trading a smaller cluster for losing a disproportionate amount of firepower when that section is destroyed.

Quote

Or we could just make all mechs Center Torso really small so you wont get cored so easily we could also remove quirks that help the high alpha meta. Aiming is not the enemy btw its called skill.

Doesn't help the XL engine types much now, does it?

Aiming isn't the enemy.

Being able to get shot groupings that would make an elite gunnery sarge cry tears of joy -every single time you fire multiple weapons- is the problem. And the name of the problem is "perfect, instant convergence".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 29 January 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Right now, hardpoint placement is more a matter of high/low, with same-section placement having no difference on spread, merely your odds of firing past cover.

It is both, closer X-axis weapons makes you better at the side-poke, similarly aligned hardpoints on the Y-axis are about hill popping. Depends on the map which one you tend to see more, but both are important so yes, horizontal spread does matter.

[Variant1]

wanderer, on 29 January 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

Aiming isn't the enemy.

Being able to get shot groupings that would make an elite gunnery sarge cry tears of joy -every single time you fire multiple weapons- is the problem. And the name of the problem is "perfect, instant convergence".

Hate to break it to you but "perfect instant convergence" has been in every single mechwarrior games from MW1 to MW4 it hasnt been a problem then and i dont see it being a problem now, all ya got to do is twist before you get hit or stay mobile.

Edited by Variant1, 29 January 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Who remembers delayed convergence from beta?

Sunset Shimmer remembers.

[Almond Brown]

wanderer, on 29 January 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

stuff

Being able to get shot groupings that would make an elite gunnery sarge cry tears of joy -every single time you fire multiple weapons- is the problem. And the name of the problem is "perfect, instant convergence".

But you yourself stated that Guns that don't 'converge" now are "garbage" , aka LBX, LRM etc style, thus wouldn't making ALL weapons "spread" make them "garbage" as well?

P.S. HSR is the reason and has been stated as such by PGI since forever. So you want HSR removed then?

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 January 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[cazidin]

Personally, I'm against convergence A.K.A. Ghost Accuracy.

[Mystere]

cazidin, on 29 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

Personally, I'm against convergence A.K.A. Ghost Accuracy.

Please clarify. Are you against the near-instant, automatic, and pinpoint convergence we have now? Or are you against it being removed?

Edited by Mystere, 29 January 2016 - 03:48 PM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Hate to break it to you but "perfect instant convergence" has been in every single mechwarrior games from MW1 to MW4 it hasnt been a problem then and i dont see it being a problem now, all ya got to do is twist before you get hit or stay mobile.

Actually, it's been an issue in multiplayer since MW1, too.

Ah, GEnie topics complaining about being able to focus-fire a leg off, the oldschool equivalent of a CT coring shot...speaking of those-

You can't "twist" away a shot to the crotch, which is what you put a CT alpha into in any case. Burn them in the groin, no twisting away, enjoy the laser Ben-Gay treatment.

Quote

But you yourself stated that Guns that don't 'converge" now are "garbage" , aka LBX, LRM etc style, thus wouldn't making ALL weapons "spread" make them "garbage" as well?

In a system where some weapons converge easily to put all their damage in one spot and others spread, the spread-damage weapons are garbage by comparison. Nothing beats being able to get 100% of your damage going precisely where you want. Take that ability to easily line up pixel-perfect shots and spread weapons aren't left three steps behind.

Quote

P.S. HSR is the reason and has been stated as such by PGI since forever. So you want HSR removed then?

Nice try here too- HSR fails to function with -dynamic- convergence- that is, it can't work with constantly shifting weapons fire data. What I want is binary convergence- that is, HSR only has to check two potential states, which is actually less than what it does now.

One is "default"- a point a long distance from the firing 'Mech. Firing at random terrain features,etc? Weapons travel the same path every time, converging as if the "target" was multiple thousands of meters away. Don't have a locked target? Your shot will be predictable, just not aligned perfectly on center with whatever gets in the way of it travelling.

The second state is "locked on with sensors", which is a range value that's already being tracked every time you tap the R key. Weapons converge (and can be HSR checked) accordingly.

[Khobai]

Quote

Hate to break it to you but "perfect instant convergence" has been in every single mechwarrior games from MW1 to MW4 it hasnt been a problem then and i dont see it being a problem now, all ya got to do is twist before you get hit or stay mobile.

yeah except it was a problem in all those games if you played them multiplayer.

[jaxjace]

I want this only if we take out ghost heat.

Khobai, on 29 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

yeah except it was a problem in all those games if you played them multiplayer.

Except it wasnt, and we did, and you all just need to learn how to not get hit more.

Edited by jaxjace, 29 January 2016 - 05:13 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Just a reminder for people worried 2erppcs would nuke Thier mech: first, heat sinks would add a buffer as well as cooling per second, and second, any effects should have a ten second delay from breaking threshold to effect the mechs, unless heat dips below before the ten seconds are up, which would either immediately end the timer, or just ensure at ten seconds, it will be below the threshold and not effect the mech. This would apply to all effects, though things like shut down warnings might animate slower to represent the heat slowing the pilots response ability from being in a giant oven, or just the blur effect suggested instead of pilot damage.

Edited by Frosty Brand, 29 January 2016 - 06:33 PM.

[wanderer]

jaxjace, on 29 January 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

Except it wasnt, and we did, and you all just need to learn how to not get hit more.

This was hilarious coming from the age of MW4: Jump in the air and shoot things multiplayer. And that was enough to create an MWO fecal-weather pattern so bad Paul basically turned jump jets to hoverjets when people worked it here.

That's the fate of any MW game that stays the course of being Alpha Precision Robot Blasters. Vast chunks of the weapon selection become meaningless and with intelligent players, so do most of the chassis.

[CDLord HHGD]

Bump.

Some good discussion here, for, against, and "good but how about this". Keep it coming!

[FreeFragUK]

Must admit, I absolutely love the idea in the OP. Does anyone know if it would be possible to submit this directly to PGI for their consideration?

Unfortunately I fear that it will never come to fruition, especially based on the petulant knee jerk reaction relating to the recent skill tree debacle.