444 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

In regards to Clan v IS balance:

Why do people feel the need to nerf Clan equipment. Yes their stuff is better, it was meant to be better. They are supposed to be technologically superior at first but the IS quickly closed that gap. What they need to do is add ER weapons to the IS, timeline be damned. I think we have all destroyed enough Clan mechs to have reverse engineered the technology by now.

In regards to Omni-mechs vs Standard mechs:

We need more modules that vary the playing field. With Endo, DHS, FF, XL,ER, and the rest of the ballistic weapons being equal the only thing separating the Omni mechs from the standard mechs is hard point types/locations. So give standard mechs a larger variety of modules to work with (basically make all quirks modules) and the playing field is equal. Do not forget the Clans have standard mechs too and hopefully they will be added to the game also.

The IIC mechs are already for sale. December ETA?


Why should unbalanced tech in a PVP game where each mech is weighed the same not be touched? I dunno.


Hopefully they fix what's already in the game. There's no need for more Legacy Tech.

[Duke Nedo]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Clan Laser, as we know, are quite good. No quirks needed.
ERML and cLPL generally regarded as the best, but the cSPL a and even the ERSL are quite good, but with the downside of being short range (just not IS short range).

They first two are good because they offer high damage and also long range, with burn times that are almost identical.
They also retain the 2x max range all Lasers get. This makes incredibly dangerous at any range, due to hitscan damage application.

Suggestion vary, from damage to heat to range adjustments...or 2s burns for all Clam Lazors, because Clams OP.

Some suggestions are far better than others.

I'll describe my ideas, and hope you provide your own, or critique my suggestion.

I favour touching all the attributes.
For the cLPL, I would touch the damage down. Start at the source 10, down 3 points. Still powerful, but 30% less. I would also cut the range down. While TT does have a 600m range, it obsoletes the cERLL in the current 1300+m max range. I suggest a modest 500 m, a small nerf, still reaching over 1k, but closer to the 365m of the isLPL.
Heat, I would start at the current 10, perhaps a little high, but you can iterate from there (PGI Plz).
As a significant buff, make it have a proper Pulse Laser burn duration. Start at 0.8s, shorter than the current cMPL.

That cuts down slightly on the alphas that are thrown out, tiny range nerf, same sustainability and a fair duration buff. Not sure if it's too much in either direction, but I feel it's a nice place to start.

For the ERML, for 1 ton it's quite excellent. I'd suggest less heat, less damage, less range and shorter duration.
Heat back down to 5, and isML down to 3 at the same time. Mainly to offset the following nerfs.
Damage, down to 6, still plenty powerful, more than the isML.
Range...well, two ways to go about it. Keep a longer effective range, but gank the extended (less than 2x) or keep the typical 2x with shorter optimal. Both are simple Weapons.xml edits, both linear damage loss.
It's probably safer to go the typical route, so I suggest a 360m optimal range (same as the isERML in TT). Still a 720m max, which is potent, but noticeably worse. Modules will affect that to 810 max with a TC1.
Burn time cut down to 1s, the old isML time.
The cERML still comes out ahead on Dam/tick, but marginally less than current. 0.556 VS 0.6 (vs 0.61).
Less alpha at less range, it is still a noticeable nerf with an isML buff thrown in for good measure.

For short range lasers...honestly, I'd rather buff the IS stuff. We need effective short range weapons, and SRMs are rubbish.
Either give the IS smalls greater range, or greater damage. One of those along with duration buffs, or even significant cooldown buffs. Make them excellent short range DPS alternatives, with 2 of them noticeably better than a single ML, as they are on the Clan side.


For the cMPL I would drop the heat all the way down to 4.5, damage to 7, and range to 280m. With current duration, it has 0.82 dam/tick VS the 1 of the isMLP, but with greater range. Maybe too much, but I repeat, iterative changes from these values.

No idea about the cERLL as I never use it. Less duration, more heat? Perhaps a touch down to 10 dam, but something useful at long range, but too hot at short? That sounds nice to me.

So...criticism?
I feel these are generally fair, but haven't thought most of them fully through. Just brainstorming.

Brave post! I think I see where you're coming from and I kind of agree that the alpha/ton is a bit problematic to balance, especially when comparing hardpoint-starved clan mechs to hardpoint-starved IS mechs. There is some asymmetric balance in play though, and I guess the trick is to make changes in that direction while not destroying the flavor that after all is there.

Good luck sir!

[Homeskilit]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Why should unbalanced tech in a PVP game where each mech is weighed the same not be touched? I dunno.

You did not read my post very critically, I did not say anything about unbalanced anything. I said if we brought IS tech up to speed (which actually happens) then there would be no need to severely nerf Clan equipment. Yes the CERML is stronger then the ISML but the CLERML should be equal to the ISERML, see what I did there.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

You did not read my post very critically, I did not say anything about unbalanced anything. I said if we brought IS tech up to speed (which actually happens) then there would be no need to severely nerf Clan equipment. Yes the CERML is stronger then the ISML but the CLERML should be equal to the ISERML, see what I did there.

No, you didn't read mine.


Fix the current stuff, don't make the current stuff obsolete.

Here's your quote, for good measure:

Quote

Why do people feel the need to nerf Clan equipment. Yes their stuff is better, it was meant to be better. They are supposed to be technologically superior at first but the IS quickly closed that gap. What they need to do is add ER weapons to the IS, timeline be damned. I think we have all destroyed enough Clan mechs to have reverse engineered the technology by now.

Note how it doesn't say, nerf the cERML or buff the isML, but forget about it entirely and bring in the isERML, which will STILL BE WORSE IN EVERY SENSE than the Clam one.


Why are people so obsessed with making things worthless? Use the Flamer if you want that.

[Chuck Jager]

I guess the solution is to admit clan is better, and be ashamed if you make the fan boys cry by saying every mech needs to be viable while we eliminate quirks.

Just play clan

[Homeskilit]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

No, you didn't read mine.


Fix the current stuff, don't make the current stuff obsolete.

Here's your quote, for good measure:


Note how it doesn't say, nerf the cERML or buff the isML, but forget about it entirely and bring in the isERML, which will STILL BE WORSE IN EVERY SENSE than the Clam one.


Why are people so obsessed with making things worthless? Use the Flamer if you want that.

I did read it, you did not say anything, all you did was question what I said. You added nothing to the discussion in your response to my post except a veiled sarcastic remark about Clans being OP. In this second response you finally contributed to the discussion, congratulations.

I do not see a reason to fix old technology when you can have new technology that is better. That is how war related technology works. When humanity discovered turbines we stopped using the propeller. When we discovered cartridges, we stopped using muskets. When we discovered Extended Range, we stopped using normal range.

In the lore they did not recover ERML until 3058 but we already have ERLL (recovered in 3037), this is one piece of lore that does not make sense. If we already have ER technology there is no reason we cannot apply it to the other lasers, espcially if the clans brought it, the IS would have adapted much more quickly.

Your comment in regards to the Flamer is pointless, it is generally a better idea to buff then nerf in regards to games. When you make change the meta will shift but by buffing the old meta is still viable.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

I did read it, you did not say anything, all you did was question what I said. You added nothing to the discussion in your response to my post except a veiled sarcastic remark about Clans being OP. In this second response you finally contributed to the discussion, congratulations.

I do not see a reason to fix old technology when you can have new technology that is better. That is how war related technology works. When humanity discovered turbines we stopped using the propeller. When we discovered cartridges, we stopped using muskets. When we discovered Extended Range, we stopped using normal range.

In the lore they did not recover ERML until 3058 but we already have ERLL (recovered in 3037), this is one piece of lore that does not make sense. If we already have ER technology there is no reason we cannot apply it to the other lasers, espcially if the clans brought it, the IS would have adapted much more quickly.

Your comment in regards to the Flamer is pointless, it is generally a better idea to buff then nerf in regards to games. When you make change the meta will shift but by buffing the old meta is still viable.

No, it is not a better idea to buff things when this level of powercreep has happened.


Nor do I understand why we should have more Legacy Tech.

[COOL HANDS]

Well one things for certain being an IS mech only pilot myself. The IS are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to the laser weapons especially the range. I would even say they have disadvantages with the ballistics to a degree and you see those disadvantages manifest themselves everyday especially in CW which is why it's dying a slow death now.

Hopefully we start to see some new equipment such as the rotary cannon for example but you know the timeline pretty much dictates what comes next so not holding my breath on that. Possibly making adjustments to the balance where the disparity between them isn't so great. But who are we kidding this is PGI were talking about. I wish there was no dominate cookie cutter meta to be honest with you but unfortunately that's the playground we have to play in.

Edited by COOL HANDS, 28 September 2015 - 01:47 PM.

[Kmieciu]

I think the single most unbalanced weapon in the game is the Clan ER ML:
+50% range +40% damage for the cost of +50% more heat +28% duration.

The additional heat is negated by the fact that an average clan laser vomit carries 25-30DHS. And the range is a major factor in MWO. When you're in a 89 kph mech you can dictate the range and any short range mech will get torn to bits when it tries to close the distance.
In order to fight against CERML at range IS mechs must use LLs that are 5 times more heavy with a ghost heat limit of 27 damage vs 42 damage from 6xCERML.

Edited by Kmieciu, 28 September 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[KuroNyra]

Johnny Z, on 28 September 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Prepare to kiss easy mode good bye. Clan players have been riding the easy mode crutch for to long. Time to get used to having a very slight advantage at most.

Dont worry everyone knows Clan players wont handle an even playing field very well so there will still be a slight advantage. In perceptible to long time Clan players used to being next to worthless on the field if not given a mech better in every conceiveable way to play with.

In fact I expect alot will up and quit just in time for Steam launch to make room on the servers for new players. Cya wouldnt want to be ya.

Your really the kind of player that ruin that game with that arrogance you know?

[Homeskilit]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

No, it is not a better idea to buff things when this level of powercreep has happened.


Nor do I understand why we should have more Legacy Tech.

So we simply have a difference of opinion, which is great, that is why we have discussions. The problem I see is that we have two different sets of balancing going on here, we have balancing between IS and Clan and we have balancing between the equipment. The IS and Clans should be equal,I believe this is solved by giving the IS ER tech, which they already have. This is a buff and it does not cause any powercreep because you are not changing the meta or making ERML any more powerful then they already are.

Is Legacy Tech the same as Lostech? The IS will get ERML in 3058, I just dont see why we have to wait 5+ years IRL for technology we already have now. If we can build an ERLL there is no reason we cannot build an ERML.

Kmieciu, on 28 September 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

I think the single most unbalanced weapon in the game is the Clan ER ML:
+50% range +40% damage for the cost of +50% more heat +28% duration.

The additional heat is negated by the fact that an average clan laser vomit carries 25-30DHS. And the range is a major factor in MWO. When you're in a 89 kph mech you can dictate the range and any short range mech will get torn to bits when it tries to close the distance.
In order to fight against CERML at range IS mechs must use LLs that are 5 times more heavy with a ghost heat limit of 27 damage vs 42 damage from 6xCERML.

This is evidence of Equipment balance (balancing the ERML vs other weapons), one i believe can be solved one of two ways 1)changing the way heat works so you cannot perform multiple alphas or B)increasing the weight of the ERML and/or DHS so that you cannot fit so many of these components onto your machine.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

KuroNyra, on 28 September 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

Your really the kind of player that ruin that game with that arrogance you know?

In my opinion, Johnny Z's opinion is not far off the mark for a LOT of the "leet" Clan players.

I've seen a few transition from Clan to IS 'mechs. A lot have commented on how 'jarring' it is...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Is Legacy Tech the same as Lostech? The IS will get ERML in 3058, I just dont see why we have to wait 5+ years IRL for technology we already have now. If we can build an ERLL there is no reason we cannot build an ERML.

No, the point he is trying to make is with a PvP game, it is bad game design to introduce a weapon to "fix" the balance. The reality is it becomes a simple band-aid. It also obsoletes old equipment with this power creep approach. Sorry, but new technology should never fix balance problems, it should simply add more options on how to build or play the game.

While I agree we shouldn't have to wait 5+ years for new technology, we also shouldn't hold out for it with regards to balance like it is a magical panacea.

[Ultimax]

Lugh, on 28 September 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

I'd rather have the lower heat on the IS side over the increased range myself, as I prefer brawling. But I appear to be in the minority, as most fancy themselves LEET SNIPER DUDEZ....

Are you actually willing to give up range for efficiency?

Because those weapons already exist clan side.


CSPL vs. IS MPL
1 ton vs. 2 tons
3 heat vs. 4 heat
6 damage vs. 6 damage
0.75 burn vs. 0.6 burn
2.25s CD vs. 3s
2 DPS vs. 1.67 DPS
165m range vs. 220m


CERSLAS vs. IS MLAS
0.5 ton vs. 1 ton
2 heat vs. 4 heat
5 damage vs. 5 damage
1s burn vs. 0.9s burn
2.25s CD vs. 3s
1.54 DPS vs. 1.28 DPS
200m vs. 270m



I find a lot of players say range isn't important, and say they would give it up for "lower heat" IS weapons - but when push comes to shove you don't see them loading up on the some of the most heat efficient and tonnage efficient energy weapons in the game.

[Homeskilit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

No, the point he is trying to make is with a PvP game, it is bad game design to introduce a weapon to "fix" the balance. The reality is it becomes a simple band-aid. It also obsoletes old equipment with this power creep approach. Sorry, but new technology should never fix balance problems, it should simply add more options on how to build or play the game.

While I agree we shouldn't have to wait 5+ years for new technology, we also shouldn't hold out for it with regards to balance like it is a magical panacea.

It is not really new though, we have ER tech already and the only reason IS does not have an IRML is because someone decided 20+ years ago that IS would not get the tech until 3058 instead of 3037 when they rediscovered the ERLL. Introducing ERML helps fix IS v Clan balance, it does not fix ERML vs other weapons balance which still needs to be addressed.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Bloody]

i have a much simpler solution

Let IS mechs use all Clan tech and remove all the weapon quirks.

that will establish your baseline for balancing. Is X weapon good enough to challenge the current status quo and if so do we need to change it?

After that is done then you can introduce new tech to give alternative meta styles.

Then you can move to Hardpoint distribution and location on Mechs etc

IS tech is obsolete compared to clan tech and that is the problem. Massive quirks is just a band aid solution. Honestly just stop the bleeding by stopping the issue right there.

Of course, the Grognards will never allow this..

Edited by Bloody, 28 September 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

So we simply have a difference of opinion, which is great, that is why we have discussions. The problem I see is that we have two different sets of balancing going on here, we have balancing between IS and Clan and we have balancing between the equipment. The IS and Clans should be equal,I believe this is solved by giving the IS ER tech, which they already have. This is a buff and it does not cause any powercreep because you are not changing the meta or making ERML any more powerful then they already are.

Is Legacy Tech the same as Lostech? The IS will get ERML in 3058, I just dont see why we have to wait 5+ years IRL for technology we already have now. If we can build an ERLL there is no reason we cannot build an ERML.

It doesn't matter if the cERML doesn't get buffed; it's comparatively too powerful either way.


As for Legacy Tech, examples being the Flamer and Single Heatsinks (and the STD engine for the Clams, upcoming IIC Battlemechs). Things that have no purpose in the game, that are either outright worse or can be safely ignored.

Bloody, on 28 September 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

i have a much simpler solution

Let IS mechs use all Clan tech and remove all the weapon quirks.

that will establish your baseline for balancing. Is X weapon good enough to challenge the current status quo and if so do we need to change it?

After that is done then you can introduce new tech to give alternative meta styles.

Then you can move to Hardpoint distribution and location on Mechs etc

IS tech is obsolete compared to clan tech and that is the problem. Massive quirks is just a band aid solution. Honestly just stop the bleeding by stopping the issue right there.

Of course, the Grognards will never allow this..

Not just the Grognards. There's still ways to keep the Clams have their own weapons and separate techs, but not obscenely superior.


Giving the IS Clam tech doesn't change anything. Fix the issue, stop with the bandaids.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 September 2015 - 02:36 PM.

[Bloody]

No, you are still failing to understand what the issue is, to you the issue is the performance of the IS tech versus Clan tech. Well guess what? the solution is already AVAILABLE. It is called *drum roll* CLAN TECH. Hello ? Cmon, IS tech is obsolete, it is overtaken, it is done and dusted. If you want to play with your obsolete tech then knock yourself out but do not ***** and whine that is is not competitive.

[Funkin Disher]

Some numbers i came up with a while ago:

Speed - Weapon - Burn Time - Recycle time - Total Time per shot
Extra Fast Lasers (SPL) - 0.5 - 1.5 - 2
Fast Lasers (MPL, SL, CSPL) - 0.75 - 2 - 2.75
Average Lasers (LPL, ML, CERSL, CMPL) - 1 - 2.5 - 3.5
Slow Lasers (LL, ERLL, CERML, CLPL) - 1.25 - 3 - 4.25
Extra Slow Lasers (CERLL) - 1.5 - 3.5 - 5

And just as importantly:
IS Max Range = 1.5x optimum range
Clan Max Range = Optimum range

And change medium laser heat back to BT values, for consistency's sake.

Edit: Its a pretty basic concept. Start with ML as a standard, Pulse lasers are a step faster, Clan lasers are a step slower. Regular ER lasers are the same but have the higher heat for their range increase.
The dropoff range of the IS offsets the higher base range of clan weapons while keeping lore values.

Edited by Funkin Disher, 28 September 2015 - 03:06 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bloody, on 28 September 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

No, you are still failing to understand what the issue is, to you the issue is the performance of the IS tech versus Clan tech. Well guess what? the solution is already AVAILABLE. It is called *drum roll* CLAN TECH. Hello ? Cmon, IS tech is obsolete, it is overtaken, it is done and dusted. If you want to play with your obsolete tech then knock yourself out but do not ***** and whine that is is not competitive.

It doesn't have to be.


You are the vocal minority here, sorry.