444 replies to this topic

[Homeskilit]

ERML are powerful right now, but that is a ERML v other weapons system balance issue not a Clan vs IS balance issue. Well, it has become a Clan vs IS issue because they are so powerful and we do not have them. I believe if both sides have them (and as I have stated before there is no reason why IS should not) it would solve some of the balance issues. Now you can go and balance the ERML against the other weapons because these changes are equal to both sides. As it is now any changes they make can throw the balance off in ways they cannot foresee because you have two different sets of balances going on.

Flamers and MG are a bit different because their main purpose was to combat infantry, which we do not have, they are not supposed to be a viable weapon vs a Battlemech.

Also I think people keeps forgetting that both the IS and the Clans trace the source of their technology to the Star League, their weapons systems are essentially the same. Clan tech is not Clan tech, it is Star League tech that has been preserved while the IS essentially lost the ability to produce said tech, Omni-mechs are one of the few exceptions to this.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 03:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

ERML are powerful right now, but that is a ERML v other weapons system balance issue not a Clan vs IS balance issue. Well, it has become a Clan vs IS issue because they are so powerful and we do not have them. I believe if both sides have them (and as I have stated before there is no reason why IS should not) it would solve some of the balance issues. Now you can go and balance the ERML against the other weapons because these changes are equal to both sides. As it is now any changes they make can throw the balance off in ways they cannot foresee because you have two different sets of balance going on.

Flamers and MG are a bit different because their main purpose was to combat infantry, which we do not have, they are not supposed to be a viable weapon vs a Battlemech.

Also I think people keeps forgetting that both the IS and the Clans trace the source of their technology to the Star League, their weapons systems are essentially the same. Clan tech is not Clan tech, it is Star League tech that has been preserved while the IS essentially lost the ability to produce said tech, Omni-mechs are one of the few exceptions to this.

Let me tell you what the isERML would be:
5 damage
5 heat
360M range

compared to the current cERML
5dam VS 7dam
5 heat VS 6 heat
360M VS 405M


It's still a fair bit better.

I hate people who say this...MGs are perfectly good Anti-Mech weaponry. They dealt the same damage as the AC2, at much shorter range. MWO's AC2 is on Steroids, while the MG is gimped with a random 20% damage nerf and a 3M CoF.

It's also a weapon that needs the Nerfinator to stop ruining.


Clan tech is not Star League tech. It's derived from it, but it is different.

[Bloody]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

It doesn't have to be.


You are the vocal minority here, sorry.

yes and you do realize that you are problem here, you refuse to accept that the issue is simple because of your lore grognard hangup or you do not want to either lose your advantage.

why do band **** when the problem can be removed?

[COOL HANDS]

Bloody, on 28 September 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

No, you are still failing to understand what the issue is, to you the issue is the performance of the IS tech versus Clan tech. Well guess what? the solution is already AVAILABLE. It is called *drum roll* CLAN TECH. Hello ? Cmon, IS tech is obsolete, it is overtaken, it is done and dusted. If you want to play with your obsolete tech then knock yourself out but do not ***** and whine that is is not competitive.

Have you been to CW lately far from competitive.

[Homeskilit]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Let me tell you what the isERML would be:
5 damage
5 heat
360M range

compared to the current cERML
5dam VS 7dam
5 heat VS 6 heat
360M VS 405M


It's still a fair bit better.

I hate people who say this...MGs are perfectly good Anti-Mech weaponry. They dealt the same damage as the AC2, at much shorter range. MWO's AC2 is on Steroids, while the MG is gimped with a random 20% damage nerf and a 3M CoF.

It's also a weapon that needs the Nerfinator to stop ruining.


Clan tech is not Star League tech. It's derived from it, but it is different.

It is better and now we are closer to balancing the game. Now you balance the CERML vs All Other Weapon Systems (not straight ISERML vs CERML) and I bet that comparison would end up even closer. The great thing about numbers, they are easily changed. The TT was a great place to start, it gave us a baseline for creating the game but it by no means does it need to be followed it religiously.

Who would have thought that a Machine Gun and an AutoCannon did the same damage /sarcasm. Why have both weapons if they do the same damage?

What is the difference between a Star League ERML and a Clan ERML?

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 03:21 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

It is better and now we are closer to balancing the game. Now you balance the CERML vs All Other Weapon Systems (not straight ISERML vs CERML) and I bet that comparison would end up even closer. The great thing about numbers, they are easily changed. The TT was a great place to start, it gave us a baseline for creating the game but it by no means does it need to be followed it religiously.

Who would have thought that a Machine Gun and an AutoCannon did the same damage /sarcasm. Why have both weapons if they do the same damage?

What is the difference between a Star League ERML and a Clan ERML?

There is no Star League ERML; it wasn't invented.


Why wouldn't you balance the cERML VS the ML? Make the gulf less vast. That whole Legacy Tech elephant returns.


You are seriously going to ignore the 1000M difference between the weapon ranges? Why am I arguing with idiots?

[Homeskilit]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

There is no Star League ERML; it wasn't invented.

Then how can you claim that Clan tech is not Star League tech. If there is no evidence they changed the ERML at all then it is essentially a Star League ERML.

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

Why wouldn't you balance the cERML VS the ML? Make the gulf less vast. That whole Legacy Tech elephant returns.

That is a matter of opinion, some people want perfect balance, some people want small difference between Clan v IS but not enough to make one vastly superior. I am on the fence on this issue.

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

You are seriously going to ignore the 1000M difference between the weapon ranges?

No, there are a vast number of things that go into balance and it needs to be viewed as a whole, not single parts. There are different weapons that serve different roles but if one single weapon far outshines the other to the point where you are at a disadvantage by not using that weapon then that is a problem. And it could be something as simple as a tonnage or a heat issue and damage number do not need to be fixed at all. Not being able to actually change numbers and see the result I cannot accurately say what is best, i can only make conjectures and discuss them with others.

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

Why am I arguing with idiots?

You lose all credibility with statements like this.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

You lose all credibility with statements like this.

Quote

Then how can you claim that Clan tech is not Star League tech. If there is no evidence they changed the ERML at all then it is essentially a Star League ERML.

You said it yourself.
Do you know NOTHING about the history?

Of course they ******* changed it.

[Homeskilit]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

You said it yourself.
Do you know NOTHING about the history?

Of course they ******* changed it.

Again you have added nothing to the discussion, no proof, nothing other then your word that they did. We know the Star League had ER weapons and the Clans left with those weapons. There is no evidence that they changed it at all (I could be wrong on this, that is why I asked for proof). Either way this digresses from the point of the discussion, it was merely a supporting argument to the fact that I believe IS should have ERMLs which would help balance the Clan lasers (the point of this thread).

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[Lugin]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Then how can you claim that Clan tech is not Star League tech. If there is no evidence they changed the ERML at all then it is essentially a Star League ERML.

NO. At the time of the Star League's collapse(2780), there was exactly one type of ER laser: the large(2620).
The clans improved and expanded the ER line to include medium(2824) and small(2825).

Quote

That is a matter of opinion, some people want perfect balance, some people want small difference between Clan v IS but not enough to make one vastly superior. I am on the fence on this issue.

Take it up with the devs and the public queue. They want mixed same-size teams, and that means they can't have the main win question be "Which side has more clan tech?"


-edit-

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Again you have added nothing to the discussion, no proof, nothing other then your word that they did. We know the Star League had ER weapons and the Clans left with those weapons. There is no evidence that they changed it at all (I could be wrong on this, that is why I asked for proof). Either way this digresses from the point of the discussion, it was merely a supporting argument to the fact that I believe IS should have ERMLs which would help balance the Clan lasers (the point of this thread).

IS versions of the ERML and ERSL are scheduled to arrive in 3058.

Edited by Lugin, 28 September 2015 - 04:09 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

Mcgral, buddy, there is a reason I haven't posted a thread like this since Clan Wave 2 hit.

As far as I'm concerned (and the vast majority of TT gamers), Battletech is a dead IP. It will remain a dead IP as long as the mistake of the 3050 TRO is not rectified.

I'm curious to see what HBS is going to do with the upcoming Battletech game. I predict it's just going to be a digital version of one of the TROs with the base ruleset. But if Jordan Weisman unfucks the IP and guts everything clan but the artwork, we might see something interesting.

If they don't Battletech is going to remain a (laughed at) niche TT.

[Gas Guzzler]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Again you have added nothing to the discussion, no proof, nothing other then your word that they did. We know the Star League had ER weapons and the Clans left with those weapons. There is no evidence that they changed it at all (I could be wrong on this, that is why I asked for proof). Either way this digresses from the point of the discussion, it was merely a supporting argument to the fact that I believe IS should have ERMLs which would help balance the Clan lasers (the point of this thread).

What you aren't getting, is the ER Medium Laser never existed during the Star League era. It was first made by the Clans, and the IS didn't make their own until 3058.

Not to be confused with the ER Large Laser which was first available and then disappeared when the Star League collapsed/left, and then was reintroduced in 2950.

Basically, ER MLs aren't coming for the Inner Sphere, for a long time, so just let it be.

[FupDup]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 28 September 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Mcgral, buddy, there is a reason I haven't posted a thread like this since Clan Wave 2 hit.

As far as I'm concerned (and the vast majority of TT gamers), Battletech is a dead IP. It will remain a dead IP as long as the mistake of the 3050 TRO is not rectified.

I'm curious to see what HBS is going to do with the upcoming Battletech game. I predict it's just going to be a digital version of one of the TROs with the base ruleset. But if Jordan Weisman unfucks the IP and guts everything clan but the artwork, we might see something interesting.

If they don't Battletech is going to remain a (laughed at) niche TT.

I don't really expect many changes to the "CoreRules" for that turn-based BT game, as the majority of that game's target audience seems to be the TT players. Any changes will probably be minor things like bumping up or down the BV of an item, etc. (if even that much). There are certain stereotypes about TT players concerning the game rules...

PS: I thought I once heard that CTL wanted to reboot the Clans, but then the BT fanbase shot it down?

Edited by FupDup, 28 September 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Again you have added nothing to the discussion, no proof, nothing other then your word that they did. We know the Star League had ER weapons and the Clans left with those weapons. There is no evidence that they changed it at all (I could be wrong on this, that is why I asked for proof). Either way this digresses from the point of the discussion, it was merely a supporting argument to the fact that I believe IS should have ERMLs which would help balance the Clan lasers (the point of this thread).

Don't let ignorance blind you.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page

[Homeskilit]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 September 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

What you aren't getting, is the ER Medium Laser never existed during the Star League era. It was first made by the Clans, and the IS didn't make their own until 3058.

Not to be confused with the ER Large Laser which was first available and then disappeared when the Star League collapsed/left, and then was reintroduced in 2950.

Basically, ER MLs aren't coming for the Inner Sphere, for a long time, so just let it be.

You are correct, I made the mistake of looking at the stats for the ERLL and talking about the ERML. I still say it is illogical though, if you have the technology to create an ERLL then you have the technology to create an ERML. Probably was not an issue when the BT Universe was created in the 80's, just another reason the Lore should not be clung to religiously.

It was a combination of two different arguments that intertwined:
1) The viability of the IS having a ERML earlier then 3058 - I still think this is possible
2) The Clan tech essentially being Star League tech - I was wrong in the case of the ML

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 04:21 PM.

[Chuck Jager]

FYI star league and Santa Klaus have about as much weight in this game at this time. I just care about best way to do X damage at 500m per ton and heat

[LordNothing]

i think the big problem is that a lot of clan smalls are equivalent to is mediums. larges are mostly on par, except the large laser kind of fills the void left by the clan mediums. arrays of small clan lasers are far more deadly than for the is. also with omnitech you can get an absurd number of laser points so not only are they better but there are more of them.

is small laser and small pulse laser can do with a bit of a fire rate buff, heat reduction and perhaps a shorter duration, perhaps also a longer maxiumum range. as a side effect this would help out the poorly sinked is lights.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 September 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[wanderer]

Quote

We know the Star League had ER weapons and the Clans left with those weapons. There is no evidence that they changed it at all

Actually,we do know. The Star League only had the ERLL at the point of the Exodus,and the ERML was actually first fielded by Clan Jade Falcon in 2824 (along with the ERSL). It didn't exist as a League-era weapon, period.

[Lugin]

Homeskilit, on 28 September 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

You are correct, I made the mistake of looking at the stats for the ERLL and talking about the ERML. I still say it is illogical though, if you have the technology to create an ERLL then you have the technology to create an ERML. Probably was not an issue when the BT Universe was created in the 80's, just another reason the Lore should not be clung to religiously.

It was a combination of two different arguments that intertwined:
1) The viability of the IS having a ERML earlier then 3058 - I still think this is possible
2) The Clan tech essentially being Star League tech - I was wrong in the case of the ML

Here's something to bear in mind: Aside from Null-Sig and Chameleon LPS, the tech the IS has is exactly what the Star League had. It even has things the Star League didn't, like Hatchets, Triple Strength Myomer, Full-Head Eject, and C3 systems (though we don't have them in MWO).

As for why the Star League never expanded ER to Medium and Small? Same reason LBX was limited to class 10, and Ultra to class 5. Tech development stagnated. The IS only recovered ER cabability in 3037.

The clans also had a long period of stagnation from ~2930 to 3045 that ended with the prototype of Laser AMS.

Edited by Lugin, 28 September 2015 - 04:44 PM.

[Johnny Z]

KuroNyra, on 28 September 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

Your really the kind of player that ruin that game with that arrogance you know?

I tell it like it is. I am not in a popularity contest. I will leave that up to the Clan players that think spouting rediculous numbers to each other explaining why Omni mech XL should remain OP and piloting Omni mechs being easy mode in general is "great for the game" while driving off anyone that wants to play most Inner Sphere mechs, tanking sales for many Inner Sphere mechs and making them hard to master etc.

So go on you crutch wielding third rate pilots and continue to troll more for easy mode to remain.