444 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 October 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

And what happens, now they have opened the gates on Clan battlemechs, when they give in and release the Stone Rhino? Fully customisable Clan 100 tonner with high mount Ballistics in each ST and energy in each arm? Or the Kodiak (though that will have low swinging hardpoints).. What about Marauder IIC? Rfileman IIC? Floodgates open now, and the ones we have so far are the puny ones (barring the Hunchie)

At least if they stuck with Omnis the only really problematic one is the Blood Asp.

Stone Rhino would need lots of new variants as there's only one available. Even more potential for Power Creep, but I don't imagine PGI would bring it in.

Blood Asp won't be a problem for a long time.


Then again, there has been talk of timeline advancement. To which degree and when, no idea.

[Nightmare1]

Mellifluer, on 29 September 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

understand when some of us are calling for "balance" we are not asking for all weapons to be "equal" simply that no single weapon is the "best" weapon in all circumstances

like now generally speaking the best loadouts for IS involve some hyper-quirked mech boating laser vomit amplified by quirks. Clans in general want whatever mix of LPL+ER med lasers or gauss+LPL/ER Med Laser. this is not balance, this is one specific mix of weapons overshadowing all others and in general it is the only viable weapons loadout to bring when everyone else is packing it too.

balance to me is every weapon having a purpose and a place, and that it be good at its purpose. SRMS and big ballistics should be king of the brawl even if it takes making AC 20's have 5x internal health for example.

alot of balance has to do with maps as well because maps will dictate which weapons are favorable for those combat conditions (like cold maps being favorable to all energy loaouts) and alot can be done in the map department (removing invisible walls, fixing spawn locations, adding or removing cover from certain spots est). this is a hard one to work around so the best overall solution is to just concentrate on making weapons perform well at their purpose and then going to the maps and making sure that they are large and varied so that no single weapon is a "good" weapon in all places. IE getting ganked in LOL, a char thats good at jungling and ganking a lane is good because he can take advantage of the grass/leap over lanes est then hide and spring. if LOL didnt have that grass, unique char abilities, or intelligently thought out lane construction ganking simply wouldn't be possible.

also to clarify when i say "slightly" im talking about 1%-5% generally.

but the way i see it

- as a general rule all cockpit shake should be reduced significantly and only big guns like gauss/ac20/lrm20's/ppcs should knock you about violently. also being hit by weapons shouldn't obstruct your view as much as they do, example ballistics making big fiery explosions regardless of size, tone down the smoke/flames its not necessary and i find it rather annoying. these are the 2 reason that AC2's got nerfed so hard (which was a stupid short sighted decision), when the simple solution was tone down the shake and smoke.

- ghost heat should go and only be applied to curb the higher end of boating IE i think its reasonable to raise the cap on clam LL, all PPC's and all ac20's to 3. in fact there shouldn't even be ghost heat on ballistics, if we toned down ammo per ton a bit people would either have to trade speed for ammo or place shots carefully. i think it was wrong to include any ballistics in ghost heat. there should be no ghost heat on any pulse lasers IS or clan, and idk how i feel about the 6 limit on med lasers but its probably very close to "balanced" maybe make it 8 but it really feels close to good balance. clam small/med/pulse/ER lasers should not be in the same ghost heat pool at all it literally is what pigeonholes clans into taking 6 lasers and a gauss.

- all endo and ferro should be unlocked on clan mechs to "normalize" them all, then weapons will be much easier to balance so they dont have to be over nerfed for over performing mechs or under-nerfed causing under perfoming clam mechs to need "hyper-quirks".

-if you swap ferro for endo (warhawk for example) the endo should go right in the same spots as the ferro did, and if you add endo to ferro it should add them on a 1-1 basis IE if a RT in a clam mech already has 1 crit of ferro adding endo will use another crit in that location. this might require that some mechs get a few more of those locked DHS unlocked for endo space, i dont care if you have to pay to remove them and i dont care if endo/ff is three times (or more) as expensive on clams as IS.

- this will automatically help balance it out. because mechs that already have lets say a ferro crit or two in an arm can no longer sling an ultra/lbx 20, or you may have to choose to keep or lose an actuator or go down a gun size to add endo.

-scrap the increasing heat cap with more heat sinks, make all double heat sinks "true dubs" and having more just means you cool off faster. SHS stay inferior to DHS in almost all circumstances.

weapons as a whole are balanced not because they are equal but because each one is good at its use. I think weapons weight should stay as it is for the most part.

- normal lasers should be mainline weapons that are a good balance of range, heat and damage/dps/damage falloff, clams should get normal laser variants in the same vein. they do exist and would help balance to have.

- ER lasers should have good range/less damage falloff and good damage but lose their edge up close because of extra heat.

- Pulse lasers (of all kinds) should have their beam duration and recycle times shortened with higher heat then normal lasers and damage should fall steeply outside of optimal range to give you a "brawling" laser. the CLPL is the outlier here, all other pulse lasers can be balanced easily but the CLPL will have to take a small hit and i think it should be heat.

- all wub should wub well IE if you sneak up on someone, or the fight opens at close ranges, all other things equal, mechs boating mainly long range weapons should get murdered by wub/brawlers and in general pilots not in a brawler should be terrified of letting wub machines get close to them.

- ER/PPCs should have good (fast) projectile speed and range and even be easy to hit with but to compensate they should run very hot (increase heat in the realm of 20%-30%) and have much longer cooldowns (at least 50%) and fine tune as needed.

--- ISvsClam energy balance--- should work as thus, clams keep their better range with no beam duration penalty but all their lasers make more heat then a comperable IS laser. IS lasers have slightly faster cooldowns and lower heat making them more deadly once in "optimal" range.

- LBX cannons should have their crit chance at least doubled and all LBX's should get slightly faster (shorter) cooldowns (compared to normal AC's) to reflect that they are brawling weapons and meant to dish out crits up close.

- normal AC cannons should get a small COF but overall maintain high accuracy even at optimal range, with deviation skewing proportionally the farther the rounds go past "optimal" range with slightly less heat then ultra AC's they should be treated much like normal IS lasers being common mainline weapons they should perform well and have a good balance of range, damage and low heat.

- ultra ac's should have a slightly (very slightly) wider COF then normal AC's but still maintaining good accuracy out to their optimal range, they should make slighy (and i mean slightly) more heat then normal AC"s, play with jam chance to bring them into line as far as balance and when you do tweak it in small amounts like 2.5% to find the sweet spot. so that ultras can retain their status as DPS dealers with the trade-off of jam chance, slightly reduced accuracy and slightly higher heat.

^^when im talking about COF i mean at "optimal" range, if you aim a cannon at the CT of a mech standing dead still it should not deviate far enough to miss but just far enough to maybe hit that LT/RT instead of CT with normal AC's being "spot on" almost all the time. ballistics should still maintain their bullet drop but it should be reduced a bit from current values.

- Gauss should simply get a longer cooldown and this will be tricky but i would say no less then 35% and no more then 65% longer then current values and play in 5% increments to find the sweet spot.

---ISvsClam Ballistics Balance- overall clams get lighter AC's and keep the multiple projectiles on AC's/ultras. I say pick 1 of 3 things or very small amounts of each
1 clam AC's are slightly less accurate vs IS AC of same caliber
2 clam AC's get slightly longer cooldowns vs IS AC of same caliber
3 clam AC's make slightly more heat vs IS AC of same caliber

---as for Clam Gauss since it has better range and weight compared to the IS gauss make it have a slightly longer cooldown then the IS Gauss to compensate but think and play in small increments (5%-10% tops) its not really that much better overall.

- SRMS all should have a much higher chance of critting and all SRMS should have their spread reduced (i think around 20%-30%ish would be about right). Artemis should make SRM spread demonically tight at the risk of having to make sure your tight cluster hits with little room for missing. im fine with SRM speed, ghost heat limit should be 4 for all sizes, maybe shorter cooldowns and slightly less heat and i mean maybe, i think tightening the spread+increase cap to 4 alone will help alot.

- SRMS should be feared along with big ballistics and wub in a knife fight if you didn't come prepared.

--- ISvsClam SRMs balance --- IS gets cooler running, faster firing SRMS, clams get lighter/smaller launchers with better range and a bit faster projectile speed, both have the same spread/damage. there you go PGI.

- Streaks in general should have slightly longer cooldowns and slightly higher heat compared to normal SRMS but almost instant lock status when you are in weapons range especially if a target is tagged or narced. but generally i find streaks pretty well balanced already. ISvsClam balance should be the same as normal SRMS. IS could really use a streak 4 and 6 launcher timeline be damned.

-LRMS should be fire and forgot (with LOS/TAG/NARC/UAV) with more missiles connecting the longer the lock is held. Artemis should make a huge difference in lock on times with LOS easily cutting it in half. LRMS should lose all Artemis buffs when fired indirectly. indirect fire should not be possible without a TAG, UAV or narc beacon. keep LRM damage spreading.

-LRM launcher size should be normalized an LRM 20 should not be a waste of space. multiple smaller launchers should dish out more DPS with more damage spread and higher heat, big launchers should make less heat and have better accuracy.

--- ISvsClam LRM balance--- pretty much is fine as long as IS keeps its "lobbed" fire and clams keep their "blue rainbow" just remove ghost heat from launchers or increase the cap to 4 across the board.

---Radar---

-ECM should lose its stealth bubble and stealth armor period. simply counter BAPs extended sensor range and Artemis buffs on that mech. It should prevent indirect fire on that target wholesale. and it will still be the most potent piece of equipment on the battlefield.

-Bap should increase sensor range and reduce lock on times and target info times with LOS.

-Tag should be invisible to the eye but the receiver should get a notice (like narc) that he is being tagged.

-Tag\Narc\UAV+LOS should equal almost instant lock on and paper doll info when within sensor range.

- Light mechs should have better sensors then bigger mechs across the board and get higher bonus's then normal from things like BAP/TAG/UAV's so they can you know scout and find those juicy targets.

-meds should profit slightly more but not as much as lights with things like BAP/TAG/UAV's.

-heavys and most assaults should be about on par concerning sensors unless they are a "command mech" from lore in which case give them a small sensor buff.

- Fix the maps so they offer less funneling and more angles to attack defensive positions, balance cover and spawns so mechs dont get ganked in the first minute of a game (lookin at you tourmaline and caustic).

just as a few thoughts concerning balance

I like a lot of your ideas, although I think reducing the speed of SRMs is awful. They already are not the easiest weapon to hit with, and hit reg itself makes them very risky to run. Since the MWO critting mechanic is laughable, trading speed for crits is a bad idea.

Also, I dislike cone of fire. That would just push things back over towards energy. Every game I've played that involved a cone of fire wound up with an imbalance. Players either went with strictly up close weapons with huge spread effects or high rates of fire, or they went completely long range with slow firing, but very powerful, sniper weapons. With cone of fire, there's no middle ground.

[Nightmare1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 September 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

Stuff

Okay, I've been too busy the last couple days to participate in this thread. I've also largely lost interest, so I'm going to sum up very quickly and move on to better things. All that text just makes me draw these conclusions:

1) You like to move the goal posts yourself and dislike it when others try to put them back.
2) You deal only in absolutes when there is rarely such a thing as an absolute in a gaming environment.
3) You don't think critically and are arrogant towards those who disagree with you.
4) You really don't understand how to pilot a Hunchback. I've been running them since Day 1 of Closed Beta and landed a spot in the Top Ten HBK rankings. I know my favorite Mech in this game. Sorry bud, but you're just ignorant.
5) You automatically assume that if someone disagrees with you, they must be a stupid PUG. I was actually basing my arguments on either a 1v1 scenario since that is the purest form of testing, or on what I witness in group drops, since I actually do more of those than PUG drops and am a Drop Caller for my Unit.
6) You discount things that may prove you wrong in an attempt to maintain your own position. That's like throwing out good data because it disproves your assumption.
7) You have no affinity for BattleTech. If you did, you wouldn't want to see the Clans nerfed below the level of the IS. You also assume everyone is a hardcore comp player and overlook the fact that most players are casual gamers.
8) Comp players are awfully high-strung individuals.

Now, I really don't have any more time to waste on what has become a rather silly thread. RL is pretty busy at the moment. So, with that, I'll sum up my own position:

Rather than nerf the Clans, yet again, and continue to make them the merest shell of what the Clans actually are, PGI should revisit Ghost Heat on all ballistics and missiles. It needs to be removed from those. That step alone would go a long way towards balancing the game.

After this incredibly basic step, PGI can look at tweaking ranges and firing durations as needed. The community needs to chill out in the meantime though since there is currently a massive rebalance underway. All the Prima Donnas just need to relax and see what comes of it. Otherwise, they're all going to give themselves strokes if they keep going at this rate.

[Lightfoot]

With MechWarrior Clans vs Inner Sphere you take the weapons that are normally about equal. That would be Gauss Rifles and PPCs, if they worked. Normally Clans beat Inner Sphere on LRMs, Missiles, and Ballistics as well as Lasers, but PGI just fiddled with the Clan AC and LRMs until they were worthless junk. Degrading those weapons below Inner Sphere counterparts just forces lasers on everyone and Clan Lasers are already as junked up as possible.

Gauss Rifles with no charge-up and fast PPCs counter Clan tech pretty well, but they were nerfed before the Clans ever even arrived for being OP, according to the whiners. None of it was OP, many players had just never played MechWarrior.

Anyway, I remember remarking that the Clans have not even arrived and here you are nerfing all the lower quality Inner Sphere tech and that this would come back to create total chaos once the Clans did attack. No change in PGI's tack so I joined the Clans until they see the error of their ways. Inner Sphere is never OP if the Clans will be included. That is just a fact.


.

Edited by Lightfoot, 01 October 2015 - 01:59 PM.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 September 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

Also, you having 40 pieces to his 15 and it being an even match is a fair fight if that's how the game was designed. This game is designed for 12 v 12, though, not 40 v 15.

And they could have if they wanted to. But I suspect they never did ... or are refusing to admit complete lack of foresight.

But that ship has, in all probability, already sailed ... not that I will not keep on reminding people of it.

[Mystere]

clownwarlord, on 01 October 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

My suggestion will make people angry ... increase heat.

Sadly though it makes the most logical way of doing things. Increase the heat more in proportion with how the weapon is better than the IS. So if the CER Medium is 50% better range then it should have a 50% increase in heat than that of a IS Medium. It is simple but it makes things less usable, or decreases dps because you are increasing the heat of the user to a point of they are more likely to kill their mech.

Or in other words, normalize lasers according to heat, damage, range, and duration according to some equation of the form:

(Damage * Range) / (Duration * Heat)

Hmm. Where did i see that equation before?

[Mcgral18]

clownwarlord, on 01 October 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

My suggestion will make people angry ... increase heat.

Sadly though it makes the most logical way of doing things. Increase the heat more in proportion with how the weapon is better than the IS. So if the CER Medium is 50% better range then it should have a 50% increase in heat than that of a IS Medium. It is simple but it makes things less usable, or decreases dps because you are increasing the heat of the user to a point of they are more likely to kill their mech.

It already follows that particular route:

270/405=33% more range

4/6=33% more heat



Range quirks changing that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 01 October 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Stone Rhino would need lots of new variants as there's only one available.

You may want to check this for timeline variants: Master Unit List

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 01 October 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

3) You don't think critically and are arrogant towards those who disagree with you.
4) You really don't understand how to pilot a Hunchback. I've been running them since Day 1 of Closed Beta and landed a spot in the Top Ten HBK rankings. I know my favorite Mech in this game. Sorry bud, but you're just ignorant.

Oh the irony. Sorry dude, but I think you are projecting...

Nightmare1, on 01 October 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

7) You have no affinity for BattleTech. If you did, you wouldn't want to see the Clans nerfed below the level of the IS. You also assume everyone is a hardcore comp player and overlook the fact that most players are casual gamers.

Ima call bulls**t on this one, sorry but this statement is just ridiculous on both accounts (that I want Clans nerfed below IS, and have no love for BT). I also don't assume sh*t about all people being hardcore players, but most people enjoy winning, whether they are hardcore or not is another story. To drive my point home, how many new players ask "What's the worst mech"? Very few people go OUT of their way to decrease their chances of winning knowingly.

Nightmare1, on 01 October 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

8) Comp players are awfully high-strung individuals.

Let's assume this is true, what bearing does this have on anything discussed?
I will say it isn't true though, I really wish you could meet Feb.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 October 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Mystere]

Nightmare1, on 01 October 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

8) Comp players are awfully high-strung individuals.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 October 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

Let's assume this is true, what bearing does this have on anything discussed.
I will say it isn't true though, I really wish you could meet Feb.

I've been with enough to know that it has some ring of truth. But that's as far as a generalization as I would dare go, especially considering I am married to one who just isn't -- other than being a spectacular Type A.

As for the topic at hand ...

PGI should just normalize lasers according to my general equation and be done with it. They're already using the "diamond" method for balancing anyway.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 October 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

You may want to check this for timeline variants: Master Unit List

Any way to see what's actually loaded on them?

Sarna doesn't have those.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 01 October 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Any way to see what's actually loaded on them?

Sarna doesn't have those.

You can try BT Engineer: http://bte.battletechengineer.com/

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 01 October 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Any way to see what's actually loaded on them?

Sarna doesn't have those.

Megamek tends to be a good method, if you turn off unofficial variants that tend to clutter it even more.

[Lugin]

There's also Solaris Skunk Werks (Be sure to grab the SSW_Master from the downloads section).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lugin, on 01 October 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

There's also Solaris Skunk Werks (Be sure to grab the SSW_Master from the downloads section).

It hasn't been updated with the variants we are talking about, at least that I know of.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Nightmare1, on 01 October 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

I like a lot of your ideas, although I think reducing the speed of SRMs is awful. They already are not the easiest weapon to hit with, and hit reg itself makes them very risky to run. Since the MWO critting mechanic is laughable, trading speed for crits is a bad idea.

Also, I dislike cone of fire. That would just push things back over towards energy. Every game I've played that involved a cone of fire wound up with an imbalance. Players either went with strictly up close weapons with huge spread effects or high rates of fire, or they went completely long range with slow firing, but very powerful, sniper weapons. With cone of fire, there's no middle ground.

i think i said that srms should get reduced spread not speed, but i wouldnt be against a small speed buff for all srms, the main point i wanted to get across with SRMS is that they need to be more accurate (i think in the area of 10%-25% reduced spread across all srms would do it) and with artemis they should be nearly pinpoint out to their max range.

as for COF i think it just has to be done to balance out ballistics. mind you im not saying they shouldnt hit where you aim, only that regular AC's should be more accurate then ultra AC's and both should still be pretty accurate out to "optimal" (read normal "max") range, only moving at most enough to hit a side torso if you had aimed for a CT and proceed to become increasingly inaccurate as the projectile moves past optimal range.

and for others i dont discount mech quirks only that they should be redone from the ground up after weapons have been balanced properly.

[SplashDown]

Ok im still kinda new to the online version of this game.
So far ive played several diff IS and clan mechs...
And i agree with you guys IS mechs need a slight nerf and clan mechs need there heat threshhold lowerd so they can actuly fit and fire more laser wepons as true clan mechs should.

[Lugin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 October 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

It hasn't been updated with the variants we are talking about, at least that I know of.

You speak of the Stone Rhino 1, 4, 5, and 6, correct? Those are in the newest (from 2013) master.
That said, it does lack the designs that have been published more recently than that, like the CRB-27sl.

[SplashDown]

Clan needs a buff to counter all the love IS has gotten in this game with Champion and Hero mechs.

[Mcgral18]

SplashDown, on 01 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Clan needs a buff to counter all the love IS has gotten in this game with Champion and Hero mechs.