444 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Clan Laser, as we know, are quite good. No quirks needed.
ERML and cLPL generally regarded as the best, but the cSPL a and even the ERSL are quite good, but with the downside of being short range (just not IS short range).

They first two are good because they offer high damage and also long range, with burn times that are almost identical.
They also retain the 2x max range all Lasers get. This makes incredibly dangerous at any range, due to hitscan damage application.

Suggestion vary, from damage to heat to range adjustments...or 2s burns for all Clam Lazors, because Clams OP.

Some suggestions are far better than others.

I'll describe my ideas, and hope you provide your own, or critique my suggestion.

I favour touching all the attributes.
For the cLPL, I would touch the damage down. Start at the source 10, down 3 points. Still powerful, but 30% less. I would also cut the range down. While TT does have a 600m range, it obsoletes the cERLL in the current 1300+m max range. I suggest a modest 500 m, a small nerf, still reaching over 1k, but closer to the 365m of the isLPL.
Heat, I would start at the current 10, perhaps a little high, but you can iterate from there (PGI Plz).
As a significant buff, make it have a proper Pulse Laser burn duration. Start at 0.8s, shorter than the current cMPL.

That cuts down slightly on the alphas that are thrown out, tiny range nerf, same sustainability and a fair duration buff. Not sure if it's too much in either direction, but I feel it's a nice place to start.

For the ERML, for 1 ton it's quite excellent. I'd suggest less heat, less damage, less range and shorter duration.
Heat back down to 5, and isML down to 3 at the same time. Mainly to offset the following nerfs.
Damage, down to 6, still plenty powerful, more than the isML.
Range...well, two ways to go about it. Keep a longer effective range, but gank the extended (less than 2x) or keep the typical 2x with shorter optimal. Both are simple Weapons.xml edits, both linear damage loss.
It's probably safer to go the typical route, so I suggest a 360m optimal range (same as the isERML in TT). Still a 720m max, which is potent, but noticeably worse. Modules will affect that to 810 max with a TC1.
Burn time cut down to 1s, the old isML time.
The cERML still comes out ahead on Dam/tick, but marginally less than current. 0.556 VS 0.6 (vs 0.61).
Less alpha at less range, it is still a noticeable nerf with an isML buff thrown in for good measure.

For short range lasers...honestly, I'd rather buff the IS stuff. We need effective short range weapons, and SRMs are rubbish.
Either give the IS smalls greater range, or greater damage. One of those along with duration buffs, or even significant cooldown buffs. Make them excellent short range DPS alternatives, with 2 of them noticeably better than a single ML, as they are on the Clan side.


For the cMPL I would drop the heat all the way down to 4.5, damage to 7, and range to 280m. With current duration, it has 0.82 dam/tick VS the 1 of the isMLP, but with greater range. Maybe too much, but I repeat, iterative changes from these values.

No idea about the cERLL as I never use it. Less duration, more heat? Perhaps a touch down to 10 dam, but something useful at long range, but too hot at short? That sounds nice to me.

So...criticism?
I feel these are generally fair, but haven't thought most of them fully through. Just brainstorming.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 September 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Lugh]

So just so I'm sure I'm on the same page as you, you want to take away the only clan advantage in lasers completely(high alpha)(largely offset by longer burn times), and give them nothing at all in return?

seems Legit. *sarcasm off

[Deathlike]

I think the CLPL range nerf to like 540m (IS PPC range) seems more appropriate as I 500m seems too close to the CERMED as currently constituted.

Mostly damage and heat reductions are still the best solutions across the board, primarily on the CERMED as I'd rather have them running cooler, but not dealing obscene bonus/additional damage over the IS laser counterparts (when we get the IS ERMed, the CERMED looks that much better on paper with the current numbers).

Edited by Deathlike, 28 September 2015 - 07:20 AM.

[Jman5]

You could probably bring down the damage by 0.5 on each Clan Laser without breaking them. The only compensation I would give is a reduction of beam duration on the Clan ER LL.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Clan Laser, as we know, are quite good. No quirks needed.
ERML and cLPL generally regarded as the best, but the cSPL a and even the ERSL are quite good, but with the downside of being short range (just not IS short range).

They first two are good because they offer high damage and also long range, with burn times that are almost identical.
They also retain the 2x max range all Lasers get. This makes incredibly dangerous at any range, due to hitscan damage application.

Suggestion vary, from damage to heat to range adjustments...or 2s burns for all Clam Lazors, because Clams OP.

Some suggestions are far better than others.

I'll describe my ideas, and hope you provide your own, or critique my suggestion.

I favour touching all the attributes.
For the cLPL, I would touch the damage down. Start at the source 10, down 3 points. Still powerful, but 30% less. I would also cut the range down. While TT does have a 600m range, it obsoletes the cERLL in the current 1300+m max range. I suggest a modest 500 m, a small nerf, still reaching over 1k, but closer to the 365m of the isLPL.
Heat, I would start at the current 10, perhaps a little high, but you can iterate from there (PGI Plz).
As a significant buff, make it have a proper Pulse Laser burn duration. Start at 0.8s, shorter than the current cMPL.

That cuts down slightly on the alphas that are thrown out, tiny range nerf, same sustainability and a fair duration buff. Not sure if it's too much in either direction, but I feel it's a nice place to start.

For the ERML, for 1 ton it's quite excellent. I'd suggest less heat, less damage, less range and shorter duration.
Heat back down to 5, and isML down to 3 at the same time. Mainly to offset the following nerfs.
Damage, down to 6, still plenty powerful, more than the isML.
Range...well, two ways to go about it. Keep a longer effective range, but gank the extended (less than 2x) or keep the typical 2x with shorter optimal. Both are simple Weapons.xml edits, both linear damage loss.
It's probably safer to go the typical route, so I suggest a 360m optimal range (same as the isERML in TT). Still a 720m max, which is potent, but noticeably worse. Modules will affect that to 810 max with a TC1.
Burn time cut down to 1s, the old isML time.
The cERML still comes out ahead on Dam/tick, but marginally less than current. 0.556 VS 0.6 (vs 0.61).
Less alpha at less range, it is still a noticeable nerf with an isML buff thrown in for good measure.

For short range lasers...honestly, I'd rather buff the IS stuff. We need effective short range weapons, and SRMs are rubbish.
Either give the IS smalls greater range, or greater damage. One of those along with duration buffs, or even significant cooldown buffs. Make them excellent short range DPS alternatives, with 2 of them noticeably better than a single ML, as they are on the Clan side.


For the cMPL I would drop the heat all the way down to 4.5, damage to 7, and range to 280m. With current duration, it has 0.82 dam/tick VS the 1 of the isMLP, but with greater range. Maybe too much, but I repeat, iterative changes from these values.

No idea about the cERLL as I never use it. Less duration, more heat? Perhaps a touch down to 10 dam, but something useful at long range, but too hot at short? That sounds nice to me.

So...criticism?
I feel these are generally fair, but haven't thought most of them fully through. Just brainstorming.

Honestly?

Make all weapons IS and Clan the same range. To hell with Lore.

Make Clan weapons do slightly higher damage and heat and slightly longer burn/recharge times.

Make IS weapons do baseline damage with baseline heat and slightly shorter burn/recharge times.

Balance individual mechs from there by tweaking individual values, not by using a sledgehammer.

To be honest, I think the balance mechanics and foresight needed to "perfect" this game is beyond current scope of development and planning, because there are too many band-aid solutions overlapping core issues that impact the state of game.

For example, this wouldn't be a major issue at all if it weren't for the fact that lasers have pinpoint accuracy.

Edited by saKhan Ds00 Kerensky, 28 September 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lugh, on 28 September 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

So just so I'm sure I'm on the same page as you, you want to take away the only clan advantage in lasers completely(high alpha)(largely offset by longer burn times), and give them nothing at all in return?

seems Legit. *sarcasm off

Try rereading you missed a couple things, like the proposed duration reduction to go along with the range reduction, which by the way, still leaves them with a range advantage.

[John1352]

My preference would be to increase duration by about 10% on C-ERML, C-MPL, C-ERLL and CLPL. Your suggestion makes them more similar to IS lasers, I think being different is a good thing.

Still, I wouldn't be upset if your suggestions were implemented, maybe with a few little tweaks to numbers, like your MPL heat (at 4.5 with 7 damage it would be rather OP).

The ITERATIVE bit is especially important!
Changing the values a lot, then leaving them for 6 months is stupid. Look at the 50% (67% with modules/elite) quirks!

[FupDup]

For the CLPL a damage reduction is in order, but I think going straight down to 10 (which is actually a wee bit less than the IS LPL) might be overboard. I liked Deathlike's idea for the range nerf being down to 540m instead of 500m, but I guess either is workable. Perhaps nudge the duration up a wee bit (up to 1.2s?).

I would leave the duration where it is because of the damage and range values...it's also kind of fun to have a weapon that behaves like a "Large Laser on steroids" rather than another "true" pulse laser.


For the CERML, I don't think a heat reduction is necessary because of the range...speaking of which, you made them have the same range as the IS ERML. Would this mean the IS ERML gets shorter than 360m? I'd rather leave the heat at 6 or maybe as low as 5.5. The duration can safely be bumped up slightly (probably not more than 1.1s) if need be.

For Clam ERLL, I would nudge damage down to 10, range down to about 710m, and duration down to about 1.4s.

[Johnny Z]

Just balance them in different ways. Whats the problem? Make Omni weapon slightly more damage anbd slightly longer range and the wight advantages and space advanatges. They dont need twice the damage and range and everything else.

Numbers dont make this a Battletech game. Ignore the trolls. Although I hope the two techs keep their seperate character as much or more than anyone else. A reminder, original Battletech used balanced weapons and equipment, no easy mode anywhere. Other than larger mechs having an advantage, getting away from that is yet another step forward for Mechmarrior Online.

[Monkey Lover]

just make them 100% the same as IS and remove any negative quirks.

[Lugh]

Monkey Lover, on 28 September 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

just make them 100% the same as IS and remove any negative quirks.

Even that won't quiet the whines.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 28 September 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

For the CLPL a damage reduction is in order, but I think going straight down to 10 (which is actually a wee bit less than the IS LPL) might be overboard. I liked Deathlike's idea for the range nerf being down to 540m instead of 500m, but I guess either is workable. Perhaps nudge the duration up a wee bit (up to 1.2s?).

I would leave the duration where it is because of the damage and range values...it's also kind of fun to have a weapon that behaves like a "Large Laser on steroids" rather than another "true" pulse laser.


For the CERML, I don't think a heat reduction is necessary because of the range...speaking of which, you made them have the same range as the IS ERML. Would this mean the IS ERML gets shorter than 360m? I'd rather leave the heat at 6 or maybe as low as 5.5. The duration can safely be bumped up slightly (probably not more than 1.1s) if need be.

For Clam ERLL, I would nudge damage down to 10, range down to about 710m, and duration down to about 1.4s.

There's the issue...what if the gun is just too good? A LL on steroids that any mech can boat, then pack another half dozen lasers alongside it.

What flavour do you want the LPL to be? You can't have both more range AND more damage. The hERLL would be the LL on steroids, at the same range but double the damage, for less weight.

The Clams don't have a proper Pulse Laser, but not a great loss.
Less damage, but more range is a trade off. Dam/tick would be slightly greater than it is now.

I don't expect the isERML any time soon, but they could have the same range. I'd rather avoid Lightsabre laser durations. It's already at 1.15s.

For the ERLL, not sure that would be enough, but iterations (PGI plz).

[Gas Guzzler]

Lugh, on 28 September 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Even that won't quiet the whines.

You're right, Clan players would continue to whine about "IS Favoritism" and how their mechs pale in comparison to the IS overlords.

[Lugh]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 September 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

You're right, Clan players would continue to whine about "IS Favoritism" and how their mechs pale in comparison to the IS overlords.

I'd rather have the lower heat on the IS side over the increased range myself, as I prefer brawling. But I appear to be in the minority, as most fancy themselves LEET SNIPER DUDEZ....

[Gas Guzzler]

Lugh, on 28 September 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

I'd rather have the lower heat on the IS side over the increased range myself, as I prefer brawling. But I appear to be in the minority, as most fancy themselves LEET SNIPER DUDEZ....

Eh its not about sniping, its about being able to damage the enemy from further away, so you put yourself at less risk.

But if its brawling you fancy, look no further than cSPL/cERSL boating. Stormcrow with 9 cSPL is a pretty amazing brawler.

[Chuck Jager]

too bad PGI does not want to change weight on weapons. The cerml could use an extra ton. The weight to useability is way to high. The extra ton would make it actually be a decision with an impact, because it would be harder to be able to count on 1- 2 heatsinks per added laser or I have enough tonnage to add lplas too.

The 13 damage on clplas for 6 tons is also super incredible. I think damage is the string to cut on this one. Also the saved ton usually just goes to a heatsink so maybe an extra point of heat (but folks will revolt)

note I play mostly clan because they are that much more effective in winning games in the 300-600m range, but they are not left hurting as much up close as the brawlers are at a distance.

The splas and erslas lasers should be the same for both sides (I know slas vs erslas). If cermals stays above 300m for range at 1 ton short range weapons for IS are just too weak for the bigger battle in pugs (some exceptions especially with quirks). The IS brawl advantage just does not turn the battle unless it is 1v1. Clan has the options for good brawl builds, but without quirks high alpha mid range builds without an XL are not really available for IS.

[Paigan]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

[...]
So...criticism?
I feel these are generally fair, but haven't thought most of them fully through. Just brainstorming.

The fundamental failure most whiny people make is that they want to achieve symmetrical balance, meaning IS and Clan tech to be equally good.

This is not the idea in Battletech.

Balance is paramount, no doubt. Clans are NOT meant to be superior in every way.
They are meant, however, to have superior tech.
IS could perfectly balance that out by greater numbers (more tonnage and the like), richer tactical options (more modules and consumables like artillery, also mines, ammo packs, that C3 computer thingy, etc.)

So effectively, clans would be "technologically superior, but tacticalls dull", while IS would be "technologically inferior, but tactically creative, mean, sneaky, etc."
That could all be very well implemented with a simple (and competent) adjustment of some XML values.

Think of it like Starcraft: vastly imbalanced in detail (e.g. zergling vs. zealot), but (near) perfectly balanced in the grand scheme.


In short: DON'T TOUCH THOSE WEAPON VALUES, WHINY FREEBIRTH SCUM

Edited by Paigan, 28 September 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

The Clams don't have a proper Pulse Laser, but not a great loss.

I feel the clan proper pulse laser is the CMPL.

0.85s is very effective, it loses some range vs. the IS LPL and some Heat Efficiency and in returns gets massive tonnage per damage efficiency.


2x IS LPL vs. 3x CMPL is a pretty fair comparison and due to their closer range similarity and is a better comparison than the CMPL vs. ISMPL. (which I'd probably compare to the CSPL)

The only reason I think it's not more popular is probably because the extra range & lower tonnage of the CERMLAS is ultimately more important than shaving off some burn time.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 September 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[Phlinger]

I would imagine the 'best nerf to CERML's would be to either go with Ghost heat(I realize everyone hates GH, I do as well), reducing it to 5 before modifier, or just leaving it alone. If the Medium is mangled, the entire Clan side takes a huge hit, not just Timber Wolf's and Stormcrows. The Weaker chassis would get even weaker. Remember there are 'Mechs that don't even have nearly as much weight to play around with as a Shadowhawk does, let alone some of the bigger IS Mechs. i.e. Butterfly effect would have a hay day on the Clans.

The CLPL could be brought down a bit, but not by much. Maybe .5 damage, or increase it by 1 slot, that might make building Timbers a bit tougher. They are cramped for space as is.

[BigBenn]

Clan lasers are fine.

Control the quirks.