124 replies to this topic

[Escef]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 October 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

Other than the fact that it's completely useless right now and could be removed and no one would even notice?

Completely? No. Niche? Yes.

The key is if one wants to improve FF armor than it needs to be done in a way that does not invalidate stock mechs. Which means you can't increase the number of crits it takes, nor change the number of points of armor it provides per ton. Two criteria that a large number of proposals violate.

[Burktross]

Homeskilit, on 04 October 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Figures they are all Clan mechs. Two possible solutions come to mind, one would be to tie the extra weight to the chassis, as long as they do not take Endo they get the free 1-2 tons but if they do switch to Endo those free tons would disapperar in favor of Endo's upgrade.

Or you could forcable switch Endo and FF for the affected mechs and add additional heat sinks, armor, or ammunition (no weapons) to make up the difference. No solution will be perfect but I think any solution is better than leaving it the way it is. As the saying goes "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

I don't think a construction system redesign (any more than what we have already) or mech redesigns are in order. Bare in mind, this will gimp a lot of IS light mechs that rely of FF for precious weight gains.

[Homeskilit]

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

The key is if one wants to improve FF armor than it needs to be done in a way that does not invalidate stock mechs. Which means you can't increase the number of crits it takes, nor change the number of points of armor it provides per ton. Two criteria that a large number of proposals violate.

None of my ideas invalidate stock mechs. Why can we not increase the number of crit spaces? What is wrong with adding additional defense to a mech at the cost of offense? It is improper to make statements like this without giving reasons why, and seriously, "Lore reasons" is an invalid response.

Burktross, on 05 October 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Bare in mind, this will gimp a lot of IS light mechs that rely of FF for precious weight gains.

This is a joke right? My Panther gains .77 tons and my Atlas gains 2.03 tons. Precious weight gains? The only reason any mechs in the Lore got FF instead of Endo was cost on a macro level for a faction the size of a Successor State, and we do not have that problem.

Edited by Homeskilit, 05 October 2015 - 11:32 AM.

[LordNothing]

there are really only 2 things i uses ff for.

light mechs with crits to spare who need every scrap of tonnage you can get.

mechs that need to run standard engines for some reason (say st gauss or ac20), but have enough surplus slots for both es and ff.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 October 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Burktross]

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

None of my ideas invalidate stock mechs. Why can we not increase the number of crit spaces? What is wrong with adding additional defense to a mech at the cost of offense? It is improper to make statements like this without giving reasons why, and seriously, "Lore reasons" is an invalid response.


This is a joke right? My Panther gains .77 tons and my Atlas gains 2.03 tons. Precious weight gains? The only reason any mechs in the Lore got FF instead of Endo was cost on a macro level for a faction the size of a Successor State, and we do not have that problem.

Lights already have issues juggling speed, firepower, and armor. Every ton... or half therof... counts.

[Homeskilit]

Burktross, on 05 October 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Lights already have issues juggling speed, firepower, and armor. Every ton... or half therof... counts.

Roll those weight savings into Endo if absolutely necessary. "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" You are taking something from 1/4 the mechs and allowing better use for it on 3/4 the mechs in the game. I do not think 1 less machine gun, small laser, half ton of ammunition, or 5 less kph is going to hurt all that much.

[Escef]

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

None of my ideas invalidate stock mechs. Why can we not increase the number of crit spaces?

Because increasing the number of crits it takes up could do just what you said you weren't doing: invalidate stock mechs. For example, the MDG-1A Rakshasa has endo steel, ferro armor, XL engine, double sinks... And no open crit slots. Not a one. Same for the 1B model. If you increase the crit slots it takes you completely rule out this mech ever getting into the game. That's just an example. There are several mechs within 1 or 2 crits of being fully crit packed, you can't just go changing things without considering the repercussions.

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

What is wrong with adding additional defense to a mech at the cost of offense?

Nothing, but if you do it at the expense of invalidating stock builds than you might as well also consider throwing away the Mechwarrior name and just make a new franchise.

[Homeskilit]

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Because increasing the number of crits it takes up could do just what you said you weren't doing: invalidate stock mechs.

No where did I say I wanted to increase the number of crit slots FF takes. I said it should be normalized, meaning it is the same for both IS and Clan. That normalized number could be the 7 crit space it is for the Clans or it could be 0 because the trade off now is weight, not crit space.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Homeskilit, on 04 October 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

First off I know there are tons of threads about this, I have read through some of them but I wanted to discuss this without getting hit by one of them necro cards.

So, FF and Endo both serve as weight saving options you must choose between (unless you are a Clanner but we are not going there). While I think having decision points for a player is one of the most important things a game can do, this is a very bad one. Mainly because Endo is the obvious choice every time but also because most mechs do not have enough crit space to use both.

What if instead of just saving weight at the expense of crit space, it cost more weight but raised your available armor points as the trade off. The amount of weight each point costs should be relative to the weight of the mech (so adding more points to a 100 ton mech will cost more weight than adding points to a 30 ton mech) and its cost in crit space should be normalized across both factions. Since FF is supposed to weigh less this means you can add more armor to your mech.

The decision point then becomes "Should I take additional defense at the cost of weight" rather then "Which of these weight saving measures should I take". This also opens the door for the other types of armor to be implemented in a similar manner.

I know this is not what the Lore says but I am making this suggestion under the assumption that Ferrous Fiber in its current iteration is terrible and needs to be rethought, so do not bother with that argument.

It'd break stock loadouts. How about you get the same max tonnage of armor but IS FF gives you more armor points total. Clan FF can stay as a weight saving device a since the IIC mechs will easily be able to fit both.

That does what you want and doesn't break stock loadouts and is lore friendly.

[Escef]

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

No where did I say I wanted to increase the number of crit slots FF takes. I said it should be normalized, meaning it is the same for both IS and Clan. That normalized number could be the 7 crit space it is for the Clans or it could be 0 because the trade off now is weight, not crit space.

Then there was no need to jump on me asking why we can't increase the number of crit spaces it takes, now was there?

You seem to be having a very difficult time staying on track.

[Homeskilit]

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Then there was no need to jump on me asking why we can't increase the number of crit spaces it takes, now was there?

You seem to be having a very difficult time staying on track.

A politician needs to address all attacks against his campaign else the less informed will assume it is true.

[Escef]

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

A politician needs to address all attacks against his campaign else the less informed will assume it is true.

Except that I didn't attack your position.

... Are you drunk or something?

[Homeskilit]

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Except that I didn't attack your position.

... Are you drunk or something?

You did, you claimed I wanted to increase the crit cost of FF which would break stock mechs. This was an untrue statement and I simply addressed it. Now in your last two posts you have resorted to slander.

Edited by Homeskilit, 05 October 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Escef]

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

You did, you claimed I wanted to increase the crit cost of FF...

Where?

[Homeskilit]

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Where?

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

The key is if one wants to improve FF armor than it needs to be done in a way that does not invalidate stock mechs. Which means you can't increase the number of crits it takes

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Because increasing the number of crits it takes up could do just what you said you weren't doing: invalidate stock mechs.

[SirNotlag]

I agree that FF needs a buff because right now it is almost completely useless. I don't really like the way your going about it if I'am reading it right. increasing the weight and adjusting crit slots breaks stock builds if you increase it for the clans. I suppose you could just cut down the IS FF slots to 7 but purists don't like that, I think every IS mech could run both endo and FF as well, and that still leaves the weight adjustment screwing with things.

My ideas are in one of the old threads
http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry4622214
This one if you want to read in detail

In short FF would work exactly as it does now, but with the added feature of increasing the max armour points a mech could put on its components.
-Stock load outs don't break from this, just none of them will have max armour (like any of them come with max armour now)
-increases time to kill
-Makes a choice between endo and FF (one saves weight, the other can be used to increase armour and save a small amount of weight)
-the additional hitpoints are not magic quirks, they would cost weight. A mech using max armour with FF would use the same weight on armour as a mech running max standard armour because the max armour points has been increased even though the points themselves weigh less with FF.

I suppose my idea isn't much different from yours it just gets to the same end by changing less.

TLDR: Yes FF needs a buff, No I dont agree with your idea. Here is mine (see above)

[Burktross]

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Roll those weight savings into Endo if absolutely necessary.

Does not fix stock mechs.

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

"Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

Yes, yes, you've said it over and over again, but this ain't politics, hell, this ain't even metagame, this is balance. You don't need your FF complete overhaul-- which is more a replacement, less a revamp.

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

I do not think 1 less machine gun, small laser, half ton of ammunition, or 5 less kph is going to hurt all that much.

How many locusts do you own?

Edited by Burktross, 05 October 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Escef]

Homeskilit, on 05 October 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

Nothing but quotes.

The first of those was NOT addressing your proposals.

The second was in response to your question of "Why can we not increase the number of crit spaces?"

In neither of those was I addressing your specific proposals. This is PRECISELY why I made the other comments that you referred to as personal attacks, because you seem to not be properly tracking the conversation AT ALL.

[Homeskilit]

SirNotlag, on 05 October 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

I suppose my idea isn't much different from yours it just gets to the same end by changing less.

Great minds think alike! I am sorry I did not read through your thread when i was perusing the older FF topics or I would have mentioned/linked it. While similar, I feel there are not enough trade offs in your version of it. I think in order to go above the original amount of intended armor points you need to sacrifice a decent amount of offense to compensate. I was also attempting to further differentiate Endo and FF as both being weight savers muddles the water between them.

Burktross, on 05 October 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Does not fix stock mechs.

Yes, yes, you've said it over and over again, but this ain't politics, hell, this ain't even metagame, this is balance. You don't need your FF complete overhaul-- which is more a replacement, less a revamp.

How many locusts do you own?

Yes it does. Your stock mech now has Endo stock instead of FF stock and functions exactly the same.

Yes, I feel FF needs a complete overhaul to be viable and balanced in a modern day video game and proposing anything on these forums is very akin to politics where you need to appease multiple sides to get anything done.

None yet, my only lights currently are a couple of Panthers. The locust is a 20 ton mech scout mech that relies on speed not damage to accomplish its role.

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

The first of those was NOT addressing your proposals.

The second was in response to your question of "Why can we not increase the number of crit spaces?"

In neither of those was I addressing your specific proposals. This is PRECISELY why I made the other comments that you referred to as personal attacks, because you seem to not be properly tracking the conversation AT ALL.

Funny that you make a post in my thread directed at specific proposals that were not mine but do not quote those proposals (You quoted The Atlas Overlord who was not adding any proposals). Then verbally attack me for believing you are providing counter arguments for my original post. Seems like the whole misunderstanding could have been solved with you using certain tools at your disposal correctly.

The second part was a misunderstanding on my part as I meant "crit spaces" as in the places in the mech where "crit slots" from equipment go. It was meant to show that there is nothing keeping us from changing stock mechs other then "Lore reasons" which people seem so intent on clinging too. As if adding a few crit spaces (which I do not think we need to do as my proposal will cut down on the number of crit slots FF needs) will so drastically change the game that it is no longer Battletech.

Edited by Homeskilit, 05 October 2015 - 01:43 PM.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Escef, on 05 October 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Completely? No. Niche? Yes.

The key is if one wants to improve FF armor than it needs to be done in a way that does not invalidate stock mechs. Which means you can't increase the number of crits it takes, nor change the number of points of armor it provides per ton. Two criteria that a large number of proposals violate.

It's literally only taken as a last resort.

Stocks mechs are already trash compared to fully outfitted mechs, let's not try to pretend stock mechs represent a balanced state..... or that they're a factor in this game.....at all.... ever.

PGI can literally change anything they want to, and they should to make the game the game better.

Endo already exists for saving tons at the cost of space.... either make Ferro an exact copy (which would be stupid) or make it give a different benefit at the cost of space....since it's name literally as the word "ARMOR" in it.... it would bey pretty stupid for the benefit not to be related.

Choices.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 05 October 2015 - 01:47 PM.