124 replies to this topic

[Homeskilit]

First off I know there are tons of threads about this, I have read through some of them but I wanted to discuss this without getting hit by one of them necro cards.

So, FF and Endo both serve as weight saving options you must choose between (unless you are a Clanner but we are not going there). While I think having decision points for a player is one of the most important things a game can do, this is a very bad one. Mainly because Endo is the obvious choice every time but also because most mechs do not have enough crit space to use both.

What if instead of just saving weight at the expense of crit space, it cost more weight but raised your available armor points as the trade off. The amount of weight each point costs should be relative to the weight of the mech (so adding more points to a 100 ton mech will cost more weight than adding points to a 30 ton mech) and its cost in crit space should be normalized across both factions. Since FF is supposed to weigh less this means you can add more armor to your mech.

The decision point then becomes "Should I take additional defense at the cost of weight" rather then "Which of these weight saving measures should I take". This also opens the door for the other types of armor to be implemented in a similar manner.

I know this is not what the Lore says but I am making this suggestion under the assumption that Ferrous Fiber in its current iteration is terrible and needs to be rethought, so do not bother with that argument.

[Burktross]

Not possible; would break stock loadouts.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

I think this would work great.

Now all those mechs that don't have the hardpoints to compete with direct firepower can use all that extra crit space to make themselves significantly tougher.

Players could then choose between direct fire power spam, or durability...rather than just choosing whatever mech let's them bring the largest number of weapons to bear.

Stock load outs are a joke on virtually every mech in comparison to fully outfitted mechs anway.

It's time for FF to be something other than just another way for light mechs that don't need the crit space to save even more weight.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 04 October 2015 - 06:07 PM.

[Homeskilit]

Burktross, on 04 October 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Not possible; would break stock loadouts.

Stock load outs are already at max weight so you cannot add additional points to them without removing things which means it is no longer stock.

[Y E O N N E]

I don't find FF to be useless. These days, I'm putting both FF and Endo on a surprising number of my Inner Sphere 'Mechs. I don't just mean Locusts and Ravens, either, it's going onto Blackjacks, Catapults, Dragons, and JagerMechs.

That's 28 slots gone to weight savings measures, but it's wholly necessary to getting a decent speed STD engine in with good firepower; the primary trade-off is in number of DHS.

The only thing that might be neat is if the game allowed one to over-armor a 'Mech in general, so that taking FF naturally meant one could add additional armor anyway because there's weight available.

[Burktross]

Homeskilit, on 04 October 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Stock load outs are already at max weight so you cannot add additional points to them without removing things which means it is no longer stock.

But they're at max weight with the weight FF gave them.

[GreyNovember]

Burktross, on 04 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

But they're at max weight with the weight FF gave them.

Then let's take some armor off to compensate?

We're already doubled armor. I don't think shaving a few off is going to matter all that much, since nobody really runs them stock?

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

There's an easier change to make.

Leave the weight savings, but also leave the standard armor points cap.

In other words, FF can get you extra armor over what standard armor can supply.

[Homeskilit]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 October 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

I don't find FF to be useless. These days, I'm putting both FF and Endo on a surprising number of my Inner Sphere 'Mechs. I don't just mean Locusts and Ravens, either, it's going onto Blackjacks, Catapults, Dragons, and JagerMechs.

That's 28 slots gone to weight savings measures, but it's wholly necessary to getting a decent speed STD engine in with good firepower; the primary trade-off is in number of DHS.

The only thing that might be neat is if the game allowed one to over-armor a 'Mech in general, so that taking FF naturally meant one could add additional armor anyway because there's weight available.

I would say something only usable by small fraction of the available mech is pretty bad. The only class of mechs that can reliably use FF are lights, the other mechs you named I would be willing to bet are all unique cases where all the weapons are mounted in the arms and there is free torso space to spare (basically you built a mech specifically to take advantage of FF in its current state).

Burktross, on 04 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

But they're at max weight with the weight FF gave them.

Give that extra weight savings to Endo if need be.

[Burktross]

Homeskilit, on 04 October 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Give that extra weight savings to Endo if need be.

But some mechs don't have endo stock. They're still broken.

GreyNovember, on 04 October 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Then let's take some armor off to compensate?

We're already doubled armor. I don't think shaving a few off is going to matter all that much, since nobody really runs them stock?

Tell that to stock mech monday, guy!

[Homeskilit]

Burktross, on 04 October 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

But some mechs don't have endo stock. They're still broken.


Tell that to stock mech monday, guy!

Which stock mech has FF but not Endo?

[Burktross]

Homeskilit, on 04 October 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Which stock mech has FF but not Endo?

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=187

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=234

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=212

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=191

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=285

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=97

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=158

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=204

[Aethon]

Interesting idea, but I mainly wanted to say the title first made me think of magnetic turds before I shifted gears and thought about Ferro-Fibrous armour.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Agree that ferro is an opportunity to improve the game. Also agree that it's a cool way to give a role to mechs with limited hardpoints.

The devil is in the details but it seems a good concept.

Secretly, I'd like to see 2x basics taken away to slow the game down. This is a nice way to give lights back a small amount of survivability to make up for loss of speed tweak.

[Homeskilit]

Burktross, on 04 October 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=187

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=234

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=212

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=191

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=285

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=97

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=158

Figures they are all Clan mechs. Two possible solutions come to mind, one would be to tie the extra weight to the chassis, as long as they do not take Endo they get the free 1-2 tons but if they do switch to Endo those free tons would disapperar in favor of Endo's upgrade.

Or you could forcable switch Endo and FF for the affected mechs and add additional heat sinks, armor, or ammunition (no weapons) to make up the difference. No solution will be perfect but I think any solution is better than leaving it the way it is. As the saying goes "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

Edited by Homeskilit, 04 October 2015 - 07:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Homeskilit, on 04 October 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

I would say something only usable by small fraction of the available mech is pretty bad. The only class of mechs that can reliably use FF are lights, the other mechs you named I would be willing to bet are all unique cases where all the weapons are mounted in the arms and there is free torso space to spare (basically you built a mech specifically to take advantage of FF in its current state).

It doesn't actually matter where the weapons are, because the slots shift around to accommodate. You can put DHS in your arms, if you need to; my experience is that unless you are swording and boarding, a lost arm usually occurs with a torso anyway. Even if it's not a dedicated sword-and-board 'Mech, players tend to baby one side regardless, so you can stack them there. Is it optimal? No, but there isn't much that is optimal about building Inner Sphere 'Mechs to begin with.

And no, I didn't really intend to use FF on those builds, it just so happened that it was beneficial to do so. My 1xAC/20+4xML Catapult had most of its weapon slots contained in the torsos (and other CPLT builds had DHS in the ears), the Dragon 1C has most of its weapon slots in the torsos, the Jagers have a great deal of ammo slots in the torsos with some weapons.

Is FF great where it is? Probably not. It's straight inferior to Clan FF, which only consumes 7 slots, but that's balanced right now by the locked equipment and extra locked slots. With that parity already in place, alterations to FF are so far down the list of things that need fixing that it's not worth it to do anything but catalogue the problem for later reference.

[Hotthedd]

Ferro Fibrous armor is not meant to be equal to Endo-Steel in any way.

It is merely a way that lighter chassis with fewer weapon options can have SOME sort of advantage over chassis that have the tonnage to run more and bigger weapons options.

As long as this is a BattleTech based game, that cannot be changed.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

The way I'd consider tweaking this having a max weight for Armor on different mechs.

So the Atlas would be able to carry 19 tons of either Standard or Ferro, the Awesome up to 15.5 tons and so on. So that's 608 Standard verses 680 Ferro on the Atlas and 494 vs 555 on the Awesome with current values.

But I'd also consider quirking hitboxes for a max boost of 2.5x instead of the current 2.0x, if weapons are gonna more or less stay as they currently are.

For example, here's how the values look on the Atlas comparing 2.5x to the PTS quirks and how I'd consider distributing the boosts between armor and structure.



So the base armor per ton can be adjusted instead when raising the armor caps, which has the same effect where standard would go from 32 to 40 and the same for the Ferros, and using max armor weight to cap the new values.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 04 October 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[TheMadTypist]

I like the "FF increases max armor" option, but I'm wary of giving such functionality to the clans- while it could improve some underperforming 'mechs, like the summoner, it also improves the timberwolf. Maybe the IS version gets 12% lighter armor (as now) with 20% greater armor cap (+6.4 points per ton-unit of 32 points), while the Clan model gets 20% lighter armor (as it is now) with only +12%(+3.84 points per 32) to the cap.

As a weight savings, FF will always be inferior to Endo. But if you make it a debate between tonnage for other equipment or increased durability- beyond what the endo can possibly provide- it now becomes an actual trade-off which will need consideration.

[Homeskilit]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 October 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

It's straight inferior to Clan FF, which only consumes 7 slots, but that's balanced right now by the locked equipment and extra locked slots. With that parity already in place, alterations to FF are so far down the list of things that need fixing that it's not worth it to do anything but catalogue the problem for later reference.

So make isFF cost 7 crit also, unlock Clan chassis, and implement the above changes to FF. I agree it is probably far down the list of necessary changes but if you are going to make sweeping changes might as well sweep up everything.

Hotthedd, on 04 October 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ferro Fibrous armor is not meant to be equal to Endo-Steel in any way.

It is merely a way that lighter chassis with fewer weapon options can have SOME sort of advantage over chassis that have the tonnage to run more and bigger weapons options.

As long as this is a BattleTech based game, that cannot be changed.

This was addressed in my original post, and the advantage of a lighter chassis over a heavier one is speed and mobility.

Edited by Homeskilit, 04 October 2015 - 07:36 PM.