88 replies to this topic

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Forum Trolling fyi, in its most common definition and display, is the act of personally attacking/insulting people instead of actually discussing the topic at hand. I e you go into a thread, say something about the topic at hand, like a normal poster, and then people post back just to insult you instead of making any kind of logical counter arguments or relevant responses. This is a big issue in poorly moderated forums but luckily not here. A lesser common definition/display is them hijacking threads to discuss things beyond the scope of the topic or linking irrelevant crap in the threads, such as kitty cat/bird pictures with immature text plastered under it.(I hate those) No one minds funny pictures, but when it's just shown to insult someone for no logical reason than your own amusement, then you're a troll.

Edited by Bluten, 08 July 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[Bearcut]

As far as I know there isn't a literal, dictionary definition of trolling, and we all understand what the OP is talking about.

Edited by Bearcut, 08 July 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Bearcut, on 08 July 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Dude, try to read the OP before becoming a dictionary.

Hes talking about Trolling behavior in game and how to deal with it.

I know that. I was in response to previous posters not the OP. But still, I suppose my post can be confusing. There exists game trolls AND forum trolls. I should edit and be more specific.

Edited by Bluten, 08 July 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[tyrionas]

anyway, there is many ways to prevent troll and whatever you do, they will always be there, the most important thing is that they stop doing it fast.

Like I said before, the system of credit and exp loss with the FF is really efficient if people want to evolve in the game, it will not solve the problem at low level but at least, people in mid and high level will be saved. it is a really hard thing to handle in free to play games, there is always people who are here to be scumbags, but if they are obliged to stay in low level, i think they'll stop the game quickly.

Edited by tyrionas, 09 July 2012 - 04:09 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

A Successful Troll is Successful. You either go down under the bridge with him, or seize and keep the intellectual high ground. With the high ground you can win easy and often. And, very often, the high ground is merely critical thinking. It is not like Trolls are some intellectual force you can only dram about behind their back. They are easily defeated within the light of critical reasoning and hence not a worry.

[Adm Awesome]

What have I done!? I'm tearing this community apart D:

oh no... I have become all that I have fought against! This... isn't... over...

[Unicronisis]

And also on the topic of trolls could there possiby be Cbill sellers like in game currentcy sellers like in mmo's?

[BigJim]

I do hope not, to be honest.

I don't have any rational experience to base that on, as I'm not active in any of those kinds of farming-heavy games but it just seems to "cheapen" the whole enterprise if people sign up & play just to make a quick buck (quid).

Then again you can't really go off on your own and farm if I understand correctly, because you're either in a group, or a lone-wolf in pub matches & just as likely to end up on a team of randoms with no teamwork & thus get your mech trashed..

Afaik, farming depends on you being able to earn the XP/money without suffering any great losses in order to keep turning a "profit", so that's one MMO aspect to the game that doesn't really worry me at all.

[Goldfinger]

Yes, a certain MMOFPS I used to play had an elegantly simple solution. Everyone allowed a small amount of "free" FF. (Hey we all make mistakes right?) But you get a warning alert and after after a certain point if FF continues, weapon cycling degrades, movement degrades, and if enough FF is done you suffer a weapon lockout.

Continued lockouts means either a seriously careless/poor player, or.. a troll! Which could lead to temp account lockout.

[Lord Cochrane]

Hexenhammer, on 08 July 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

We talk about FF violations and penalizing players for being jerks but how do we do it? What constitutes as a violation and what constitutes Joe ***** always being in my way when I am firing?

I'm all up for punishing FF trolls but defining a FF troll with code is a lot harder than it seems.

I would suggest all FF violations be penalized via cbill/xp penalties - this will encourage all people to exercise more realistic fire discipline.

If Joe Blow is crossing your fire lanes you exercise restraint and do not fire.

Edited by Lord Cochrane, 09 July 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[CCC Dober]

The thing mentioned above the devs plans to have some sort of player ranking reminds me of the ELO system. Whether this works to weed out the trolls is controversial at best. The term I'm referring to is ''ELO hell', which basically means that while the advanced players are safe, the new guys or the below average players will face the trolls/griefers instead. This doesn't necessary solve the problem and I remain skeptical for that reason and another one. Griefers and trolls want to cause as much collateral as possible and that can be handled much more effectively. I'm still in favor of an adaptive FF system that minimizes their impact on teams in general. Banning and penalties can be circumvented with multiple accounts easily enough.

[Goldfinger]

Oh.. another possible way to discourage friendly fire would be a "you broke it you bought it" rule. Just deduct the cost of friendly fire repairs from the players C-bill payout. They he can explain to teammates why he always needs to "borrow just a few thousand C-bills" for his ~own~ mech repairs.

[tyrionas]

I'm totally against the ELO hell system because if an average player is doing his rank matches with bad player instead of good players, he will be in ELO hell wich is really annoying when you're not so bad. And as you know, it impossible to go back from ELO hell, even if you are a good player.

[Dustein]

I have read mention in the Dev forums of a rating system. Also as well as C-Bills we should all have read about XP. From interviews it seems to me that XP will be awarded for "playing your role well" not just for getting the most kills or being on the winning team. I hope that this same system will reflect "Friendly Fire Trolling". Unfortunately all 'good' Trolls figure ways around any rule / system. So I hope it is not so harsh as to overly punish truly unskilled / n00b players in an attempt to balance 'Trolling' (Hopefully the rating/XP system will help with this in 'public' games).

In terms of 'mech gaming flavour I could chalk up Trolls / n00bs / Leavers / Ragers / Laggers to "the cost of war". Gaming with a known group (a seasoned Lance) will have a much different dynamic than having your commander "volunteer" you to go on mission and you only meeting your lance mates for the first time as you deploy.

~Edit Start~
Good posts IMO:

Well said and quite funy Bluten..

Bluten, on 08 July 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

We need friendly fire on and it's a big part of what makes a multiplayer like this good. You will need to actually AIM and be cautious with your shots. Most shooters don't feature friendly fire and it hurts their game as a result. You no longer have to aim or be mindful of AoEs; you can simply shoot wildly with no kind of drawback. I will admit no friendly fire is the "lazy" way to avoid having to police grieving or TKin but it doesn't make your game better. But it goes beyond laziness sometimes. TF2 for instance actually features abusing friendly fire just to detect spies. What I mean is everyone deliberately shoots allies to detect Spies because allies won't get hurt but Spies disguised as allies WILL get hurt. It's completely stupid. You'd never do that sort of thing IRL. "Are you spy? Hold on while I shoot you in the face to find out. Ok, you didn't get hurt, so you're really an ally."<--Stupid game.

Haha this too by Bearcut..

Bearcut, on 08 July 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

One example: I was showing my old man BF2 a while back.... he jumped in a Black Hawk on the carrier, and the thing loaded up with him in the pilot seat. He didnt know how to fly, but couldn't move, so he decided to give it a shot. Fully loaded... he tilts back right into a jet taking off, kills the jet, the chopper spins around a kill a few people on deck, flips into the water, explodes, kills everyone in the thing. Next thing I know... BANNED FOR EXCESSIVE TEAM KILLING. Was that intentional? Of course not. Was it hilarious? Yes. But he wasn't being a troll. He was being a newb. If you ban newbs for being bad, you'll end up with what I call "Old Game Syndrome"... where the only players left are vets who just bash the crap out of a any new player, and anyone that comes in just hates the game and leaves, dwindling your player base.

A Good Idea in Theory Lord Cochrane, however I personally do not like this idea as a skilled Troll can 'step in frount' or 'body block your shot' intentionally..

Lord Cochrane, on 08 July 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

As for FF in MWO I think the easiest way to deal with it would be penalties on Cbill and XP rewards at the end of each match for FF violations.

As exampled by Sythiss..

Sythiss, on 08 July 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

My biggest concern with FF balancing or banning or anything automatic is those people that do it to annoy others do need to shoot you to anger you then. They just need to keep stepping in YOUR way. Then when you accidental shoot them and If they are good at being buggers well you get the bans or cbill peniltys

~Edit End~

Edited by Dustein, 09 July 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[990Dreams]

Pfff... this is a tough one.

No votes. People can abuse that. GOT IT!

Team kill count. you can kick someone cause of there team kill count (if you want). Now, if it is a low or relatively low (110 team kills with 250 matches) than you can assume that they are good to go. Now if it is a high number (90 team kills with 70 matches), you can assume they are a troll. Or you can have a digital username log, to keep there name in. Instead of IP addresses, use gamer ID tags, along with a team kill counter.

[Kifferson von doober]

Sythiss, on 08 July 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

My biggest concern with FF balancing or banning or anything automatic is those people that do it to annoy others do need to shoot you to anger you then. They just need to keep stepping in YOUR way. Then when you accidental shoot them and If they are good at being buggers well you get the bans or cbill peniltys

Indirect fire weapons are looking better and better!

[bigrigross]

This is a pretty simple problem. Its supposed to be a simulator so FF is always on your mind. If someone is FF you, best way to deal with it is to institute a C-Bill and XP fine. Every time someone fires on a teammate accidental or not, you get a multiplier. So if you shoot someone twice, you get twice the c-bills and xp removed from your match. If its 10x FF incidents, then they get 10X amount removed and if you come out negative, then it comes out of your total on your account. This would be the best in my opinion. Its a free to play FPS, kicking is worthless, banning is worthless. Its a simulator so accidents happen. If someone is new, I dont want to kick them from the game so they cant learn. Fining people would be the best way and plus it would make people learn to have clear line of sight when firing their weapons. This is just my opinion.

[tyrionas]

well said bigrigross, it's exactly what i said

[Engineering]

Dealing with griefers in game is one of the most difficult things to do. The solutions to the problem must in no particular order.

1. Limit the damage of the griefers - no explanation really needed
2. Be as automated as possible - even if only .1% of your population griefs in a game with 300k users that 300 griefers that's gonna be very expensive and manpower expensive to do by hand as for every real case you will have 100 reports and the problem becomes exponential as the player base gets bigger.
3. Must punish the griefer - Most of the solutions that have been tossed out here will with time be used to grief rather than punish the griefer. As others have stated if I wanna grief I just stand in front of my teammates weapons and let him TK me. He gets the $ pain and the bans rather than me. Risk free griefing or just about.
4. The system must not limit matchmaking potential - This one is also very important as some have pointed out if force people into tiers of gameplay you make it harder to get matches. Not a problem if you have a 1 billion player player base but no game ever has. Even WoW with it's huge player base runs into the problem of getting everyone a short wait for instances simply because or limits imposed on the matchmaking (Need tank healer and 3 DPS).
5. The system must not punish new players - Again this has been pointed out but it must be emphasised as new players are the lifeblood of any game. Any system that makes new players the target of the griefers will inevitably cause the game to fail.

Solution?

Personally I think a 2 tier system would be best but even that would not be perfect. First part is being able to block certain players from being your teammate. Downsides? limits matchmaking slightly and will long term punish new players. To avoid punishing new players part 2 comes in which is at a certain threshold of either TKs or getting TKed you get put into a manual verification where your actions get scrutinized for punishment. Downside? Comes at a $ cost of personel required to do the manual verification.

As there are no tiers someone making new accounts would not be automatically put with new players so even if the griefer is banned and makes a new account we would not be unduly punishing new players.

The only real solution is to run with regular teammates as much as possible but of course that is not feasible for everyone so a system must be found to limit damage.

[MiniChiken]

Grugore, on 08 July 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Your best bet to avoid stuff like that would be to join BWC (Bravo Whiskey Charlie) It's Veteran owned and operated and you won't see anything like that with these guys. They have a solid reputation and won't tolerate any of that nonsense. You can find them in the merc forum threads.

Shameless recruiting.