182 replies to this topic

[Xandre Blackheart]

light487, on 08 July 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Good thread.. I enjoyed the reading

Holy crap you read the entire thing? You sir are unusual on teh interwebs.

Butane9000, on 08 July 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Did you also factor in that PPC's can do electrical damage to the mech itself. Specifically send surges through the cockpit jamming screens for a bit?

Yes that was mentioned in the original post under imponderables. It has been implemented to a degree, but to what degree no one can say (who isn't under NDA). I consider it more than offset by the implementation of minimum range.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Starne, on 08 July 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Now, this will depending how PPCs work in the game. Personally my money is on them functioning like autocannons than lasers, but who knows..

As we've seen in the videos, Lasers deal their damage of the course of a few seconds, and that damage can be spread out across the target. If PPCs function like they do in MWLL(for example), then they deal all of their potential damage at once, and to a single location on the target. With a laser, some of the potential damage can be mitigated(spread out across multiple hit locations, or even some of it lost if the laser wanders off target) if the shooter doesn't keep their aim steady for the duration of the firing. With a PPC, you shoot, and if it connects, you deal full damage to whatever part of the target the shot struck.

Personally, I'm a fan of Energy weapons of all types.

As stated earlier in the thread, yes, lasers dot out damage over time. This isn't necessarily a bad thing however. A skilled gunner can probably hold the majority of damage on a single area, but what you may NOT have considered is that a skilled gunner can also rake the lasers over your entire mech in order to seek out damaged sections and get more criticals. it makes them rather like ghetto SRMs in that sense for no extra cost.

Also as stated earlier the PPC DOES have travel time. So sniping with it will require at least a modicum of skill.

The efficiency of Large Lasers is the selling factor for me however. Efficiency means that over time you gain on each and every shot. And it also means that they stack better. Those two factors will probably offset the desire for 2 more damage and 90 meters of range, and damage dump in one spot (and a possible hit effect) for me when I consider that It's costing me 2 more tons, 1 more crit slot, and 2 more heat, ghetto SRMs (and a minimum range).

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 08 July 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Calisrue]

honestly i think it will depend upon what the going skill level is down the road - in mw4vengence and mercs online it just got brutal to poke your head out for a few sec from cover. we'll see what thats like down the road eh

[Xandre Blackheart]

Calisrue, on 08 July 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

honestly i think it will depend upon what the going skill level is down the road - in mw4vengence and mercs online it just got brutal to poke your head out for a few sec from cover. we'll see what thats like down the road eh

I'll have to look at the laser firing portions of the footage again, but It doesn't appear to be a significant period of time. You could argue that lasers might even be better weapons for "snap shots" than PPC's with the burn mechanic.

But yes, no one really knows anything for sure yet till we get to play the damned game

All those people in beta. I hate on them.

[Starne]

Xandre Blackheart, on 08 July 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Also as stated earlier the PPC DOES have travel time. So sniping with it will require at least a modicum of skill.

I never said that PPCs didn't have a travel time.

I'd also like to point out that it may not be so easy as you think to keep those lasers on target. Odds are, both Mechs are moving, and one or both could be getting hit with ballistic fire, knocking the Mech around. Consider that the Mech you're firing at may be getting peppered with fire from a pair of UAC5s(knocking it around, especially if it's a smaller Mech.), and that at any moment a Gauss slug might slam into your own ride, throwing your aim off.

Sorry, I don't mean to come off as argumentative.

Edited by Starne, 08 July 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Starne, on 08 July 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

I never said that PPCs didn't have a travel time.

I'd also like to point out that it may not be so easy as you think to keep those lasers on target. Odds are, both Mechs are moving, and one or both could be getting hit with ballistic fire, knocking the Mech around. Consider that the Mech you're firing at may be getting peppered with fire from a pair of UAC5s(knocking it around, especially if it's a smaller Mech.), and that at any moment a Gauss slug might slam into your own ride, throwing your aim off.

Sorry, I don't mean to come off as argumentative.

No no, I understand. I was trying to do a multiquote but it didn't work. Regardless it is a consideration. The lasers appear to be instant on, making aiming easier in some sense.

But of course you also need to apply the same argument to the PPC mech, and realize that a miss for the PPC mech means no damage at all versus partial damage for the Large Laser mech.

So I consider it actually a benefit for the Laser mechanic in some situations.

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 08 July 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Telecleez]

i dont know if any one touched on this i kinda skimmed over the postings but to me PPCs have a kenetic impact as well as the energy so when a ppc hits a target it's like being hit by a AC/UAC/LBX (which i don't know if they put that into the game or not) and LrgL's have instant hit so a little less damage and a little less heat w/ instant strike vs high impact high heat and a little more range... also in MW the minimum range of the PPC was for splash damage from close in hits from the weapon... again i don't know if they have or are going to put this into the game but they have in past MW titles... not looking to start an argument just this is what i know about the PPC vs Lrg laser in Mechwarrior don't really know about MWO i just hope i can find out about w/ either an invite or open beta still looking forward to the game in any case

P.S. I prefer PPCs for the reasons i said above the kenetic/energy damage as well as full damage upon hit

Edited by Telecleez, 08 July 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

When you figure that in THIS game to do the damage youd get from the lg laser you have to hold it on target the time it requires to do the damage and the PPC does it when it hits, Im perferring the PPC

[Bodha]

I can easily see swapping the ppc's in the awesome for large lasers. What you lose in alpha you make up in heat efficiency. Not a big difference you say? Heat buildup over a short intense engagement will be a big issue for the ppc based build. That laser build though will still be coasting along. Sure his alpha strike is 24 vs 30, but his heat is 18 vs 30 if the space saving is used for heat sinks. So considering the original build has serious heat issues I think the large laser build will be a popular alternative.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Telecleez, on 08 July 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

i dont know if any one touched on this i kinda skimmed over the postings but to me PPCs have a kenetic impact as well as the energy so when a ppc hits a target it's like being hit by a AC/UAC/LBX (which i don't know if they put that into the game or not) and LrgL's have instant hit so a little less damage and a little less heat w/ instant strike vs high impact high heat and a little more range... also in MW the minimum range of the PPC was for splash damage from close in hits from the weapon... again i don't know if they have or are going to put this into the game but they have in past MW titles... not looking to start an argument just this is what i know about the PPC vs Lrg laser in Mechwarrior don't really know about MWO i just hope i can find out about w/ either an invite or open beta still looking forward to the game in any case

It's been touched on. You should skim a little deeper.

514yer, on 08 July 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

When you figure that in THIS game to do the damage youd get from the lg laser you have to hold it on target the time it requires to do the damage and the PPC does it when it hits, Im perferring the PPC

That is of course the Pilot's choice.

I just don't see it as enough of a factor to offset the other efficiency issues, especially since it's also likely to have some benefits like crit seeking, easier aiming, and snap shooting.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Bodha, on 08 July 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

I can easily see swapping the ppc's in the awesome for large lasers. What you lose in alpha you make up in heat efficiency. Not a big difference you say? Heat buildup over a short intense engagement will be a big issue for the ppc based build. That laser build though will still be coasting along. Sure his alpha strike is 24 vs 30, but his heat is 18 vs 30 if the space saving is used for heat sinks. So considering the original build has serious heat issues I think the large laser build will be a popular alternative.

You're probably correct, it will be a popular alternate build. Especially when you consider that the PPC version is helpless if you are within 90m... well it does have a small laser. But still, a jenner will rip you a new one if it gets inside you minimum PPC range.

God forbid it's a flamer jenner. You might as well just go get a cup of coffee at that point. Even a large laser build is going to hate that one. But against regular jenners, you can still slice and dice.

However I feel compelled to point out that the most likely build is going to be 3 large lasers replacing the PPC's and since the stock mech comes with 28 heat dissipation, you WON'T need to add any heatsinks. In fact you can remove 4 of them and gain 4 tons, plus the 6 tons for moving to Large Lasers gives you 10 additional tons to play with,

At that point, you can actually consider upgrading the engine so that it doesn't waddle or add some command and control modules or ECM or whatever, or even (depending on how they do the hardpoints) adding some heatsinks back and some small lasers specifically to ruin a flamer toting jenner's day.

Here's a fun little resource that actually gives you things like heatsinks and where they are located as well as how many, which Sarna fails to do.

http://bg.battletech...th_Counters.pdf

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 08 July 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Xandre Blackheart, on 08 July 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

I just don't see it as enough of a factor to offset the other efficiency issues, especially since it's also likely to have some benefits like crit seeking, easier aiming, and snap shooting.

I would when both gunner and target are likely moving, and keeping gun on target for a DOT attack will be nearly impossible at speed when you can snap off a PPC shot and IF you hit (of course) you do full damage per shot

[Xandre Blackheart]

514yer, on 08 July 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

I would when both gunner and target are likely moving, and keeping gun on target for a DOT attack will be nearly impossible at speed when you can snap off a PPC shot and IF you hit (of course) you do full damage per shot

Of course. As I said, that is a piloting choice. There was a bit of discussion above regarding that, and the idea that you are taking a greater risk such as missing completely while being pounded by hits or moving versus dumping all your damage in one spot compared to not being able to hold for greater damage on a specific section while being pounded by hits or moving versus doing partial damage spread out over the mech seems like a perfectly reasonable idea to me. Greater risk should yield a greater "reward", in the case of the PPC, all or nothing.

I'm just saying that my personal preference is the ability to do at least partial damage while moving, perhaps erratically and violently...Who knows it might even make me harder to hit while I close inside a PPC's minimum distance.

No one's gonna know anything for sure till we all get to drop.

[Gozer]

One of my favorite Marader variants changes out the PPC's for Large Lasers. Pre 3050 it's a great all around mech that I look forward to seeing how it works in MWO.

[csebal]

Xandre Blackheart, on 08 July 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

The specifications for the Large Laser-

Heat: 8
Damage: 8
Range: 15 (450m)
Weight: 5 Tons
Critical Slots: 2

And the specifications for the PPC-

Heat: 10
Damage: 10
Range: 18 (540m)
Weight: 7 Tons
Critical Slots: 3

The differences seem negligible at first glance. But on the breakdown you are gaining 2 damage and 90m of range for the cost of 2 heat per shot and 2 tons and a crit space. Considering that 2 tons (and an extra crit space) can be used to even further offset the heat cost (making it 6 heat for 8 damage vs 10 for 10 at the same tonnage) the only consideration becomes range.

I look at it this way:
The PPC takes 50% more crit slots and 40% more tonnage, for only 20% less damage. In other words:

Large laser - 1.6 damage / weapon tonnage, 1 heat / damage
PPC - ~1.4 damage / weapon tonnage, 1 heat / damage

The range difference is negligible, especially since from what I know, energy weapons will not have a clear range cutoff, but a gradual damage dropoff past their maximum range.

Which one you choose is then pretty much determined by what amount of space you have available. I would go with the large lasers first, if I can fit them, so:

5-6 tons : 1 large laser
7-9 tons : 1 PPC
10-13 tons: 2 large lasers
14 tons: 2 PPC
15 tons: 3 large lasers
etc..

Over 15 tons, the large laser is the clear winner, as once you get to 3 PPCs, you could also fit 4 large lasers for 1 less tonnage, but about 10% more overall damage. With that many weapons however, heat becomes a much bigger limiting factor than tonnage or crit slots. After all, 4 large lasers generate 32 heat / cycle, or 30 for the 3 PPCs and that takes quite a lot of heatsinks to get rid of.

[Kaldrenborn]

This might have already been mentioned, but I would really hate to swap 2 PPCs on a Puma (not that we can even use a puma in MWO) for 2 large lasers. Unless I wanted some more speed or armor..

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Xandre Blackheart, on 08 July 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I'm just saying that my personal preference is the ability to do at least partial damage while moving, perhaps erratically and violently...Who knows it might even make me harder to hit while I close inside a PPC's minimum distance.

No one's gonna know anything for sure till we all get to drop.

Noone even knows if theyre doing minimum distances either.
Either it was a Q&A or something touched on it but they said theyre only doing them "if they make sense"

[Damion Sparhawk]

csebal, on 08 July 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

I look at it this way:
The PPC takes 50% more crit slots and 40% more tonnage, for only 20% less damage. In other words:

Large laser - 1.6 damage / weapon tonnage, 1 heat / damage
PPC - ~1.4 damage / weapon tonnage, 1 heat / damage

The range difference is negligible, especially since from what I know, energy weapons will not have a clear range cutoff, but a gradual damage dropoff past their maximum range.

Which one you choose is then pretty much determined by what amount of space you have available. I would go with the large lasers first, if I can fit them, so:

5-6 tons : 1 large laser
7-9 tons : 1 PPC
10-13 tons: 2 large lasers
14 tons: 2 PPC
15 tons: 3 large lasers
etc..

Over 15 tons, the large laser is the clear winner, as once you get to 3 PPCs, you could also fit 4 large lasers for 1 less tonnage, but about 10% more overall damage. With that many weapons however, heat becomes a much bigger limiting factor than tonnage or crit slots. After all, 4 large lasers generate 32 heat / cycle, or 30 for the 3 PPCs and that takes quite a lot of heatsinks to get rid of.

energy weapons may not have a clear range cutoff but look at it this way, real world energy works like this for every foot in open space you divide by 2.(at least when dealing with the gigahertz range of microwaves, not entirely sure about lasers but the principles are similar in physics) so while the actual laser may continue for quite a while, the significant energy and heat generated by it, will dissipate rather quickly beyond it's effective range.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The defining factor for me will be heat and how it is handled in the game. If transient heat spikes, before HS dissipation cuts it have an effect, then it would shift to the LL. Range is important to me, as is instant damage as I'm intending to run fast medium skirmishers to act as heavy scouts/ scout killers. At the moment I am looking at PPCs, especially ER for this use. Damage at range, where you have the sight lines, is important. In builds with few weapons to avoid minimum range penalties you need the ER PPC or go with lasers and accept some potential damage loss due to the DoT effect.
It's been an interesting discussion, which has come up against the usual problem, of not knowing how the game plays. Even then, as it's in Beta, there will be changes. I look forward to August 7th when we can find out for ourselves.

[AlphaKale]

I'm thinking the LL will be a good weapon for the heavier end of the light mech category to carry. It will be a good-ranged harassment weapon which can deal substantial damage against slower (easier-to-hit) heavies and assaults. Of course all this assumes the light has reasonable amounts of cover to pop in-and-out of, and/or lance-mates to help distract the target...