135 replies to this topic

[NextGame]

There are lights in MWO?

[627]

NextGame, on 12 October 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

There are lights in MWO?

yeah, and on the redux maps, you can now kick those lamp post down!

[Rogue Jedi]

Jazzbandit1313, on 12 October 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Let's start off with what we see most commonly in our light lances:

1. SML or SMPL FS9's or Cheetas

2. ERLL Ravens

3. The occasional myth lynx, jenner, spider, commando, lolcust...etc.

Light piloting has become a cesspool of high alpha, low heat, fast fire rate, god hitbox mechs that will take out your rear torso in two shots. It's especially insulting when you're zoomed in and the rear damage indicator decides not to work for the moment, then you die. I am SO sick and tired of dealing with peekaboo lights that alpha torsos off in three volleys, while you desperately try to hit them in their almost non-existent legs or CT from mid range.

Here's what we need to see more of:

1. Builds that support the team by targeting, relaying information, deploying UAV's, rather than headhunting the entire round.

2. NARC's, lots and lots of NARC's.

3. TAG lasers anyone?

4. LRM5/10's for long range harassment.

5. MIXED laser loadouts.

And no, it's not that I can't hit lights. I didn't get to tier two with bad aim now did I? Yes, I've taken down my fare share of Cheetas and FS9's with assaults and heavies, but the variety of their builds is starting to dwindle. Lights aren't supposed to take as much time, armor, and damage as an assault.

PGI fix

1 and 4 are my preferred play style, the Spider is my favorite Mech and I have more time in that than any other 2 chassis combined, however when PSR was released I discovered I was tier 5.
that sort of play style is not rewarded, so I am now playing the Meta to bring my PSR up, and while it is almost impossible to increase it playing as I would prefer to playing meta it is going up pretty quickly.

so PGI may claim that they are trying to reward teamwork but a selfish play style chasing kills and damage in an over quirked meta Mech is far more profitable than playing to help the team.
.

Quote

*Tell me how ridiculous this sounds (ACH). 6xSML. I can fire 7 alphas without overheating. 30 damage. 30x7 = 210.

210 damage while holding down the alpha button while running, and you don't shut down to get killed.....IN A LIGHT.

Forgot to mention. JJ's, ECM, And enough armor and god hitboxes to stay alive the whole round.

that does sound ridiculous, I have been trying to build a low heat Cheetah, and unless I try to run with spider level firepower I end up overheating after the third alpha, I am not sure how you are managing it.

[Homeskilit]

Spleenslitta, on 12 October 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

I've done my share to make MWO more diverse. I made a guide on unorthodox light/fast medium mech tactics.
Non Meta Light Mech Tactics Guide.

But i also managed to convince 2 players to use my tactics. 1 of them is completly hooked. He always uses at least 1 long range weapon in his loadout these days.
As for myself....i use this KFX build most of the time. cERSL, cERML, cER PPC, 4 MG's, ECM, 6JJ.

All my builds focus on being capable of striking at both short and long range. If possible i include a middle range weapon too.
The philosophy is that all those pure short range builds sometimes stumble across huge opportunities to strike at long range, but they can't do anything because they do not have the weapons for it.
Those opportunities are wasted and thus they do less damage.

Pure long range builds often end up fighting at close ranges no matter how hard they try to prevent it. Having some short range weapons gives them a better fighting chance.

I build my mechs similar to what you describe here, meta be damned!

Edited by Homeskilit, 12 October 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 12 October 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

You have to get there and stay there first.

Yup.

This is what I keep saying in these threads, and so many people love to argue.

Even in a Direwhale, there are precisely zero light pilots who can get into my back arc and stay there. Zero. Not because I'm particularly good.

This is because it's simply impossible, if the Direwhale is piloted correctly. In a 1v1 against a ACH/FS9 who gets the drop on me (read: he shoots first, and assuming I'm intact), I'll get at least one shot off against him, and if he's not a VERY good light pilot, I'll get at least two. That's in a Direwolf. More in a faster, more agile mech. If I can't kill him in those two shots, he's won - but this is ulitimately no different than when I encounter a Timberwolf. He who hits what he needs to hit, faster, and more accurately wins.

Adiuvo here? He's killed me, more than once, in a light while I was in an Assault. But not because he was magically able to stay behind me, even being a vastly better player than I. Just because he picks the right moments to do it. And because he's a much better player than I am. He'd likely do it in any other mech too.

---

And after all, that's the best case scenario. That's the ACH and FS9, not "Lights" in general.

If you leave the ACH and FS9 off the table, and large skill gaps, lights become downright laughable garbage. Oh, sure, "you can do well in them". You can "do well" in anything.

Ultimately, there's a reason why the Light queue is consistently the lowest population queue.

If lights were somehow OP - even with a high skill demand - you'd see so many more lights around, and not nearly as many heavies.

One Medic Army, on 12 October 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

If lights were really so dangerous, we'd be seeing more people actually have back armor above single digits. Just saying.

Yup.

Alistair Winter, on 12 October 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Soooo.... just like tier 1 heavy mechs, except those can take out pretty much any component in two shots? Gotcha.

.... From the front.

Quote

It's really weird, isn't it? Considering how massively OP the light mechs are. You'd think someone would have noticed, and started playing them by now.

Pfft, are you implying people naturally gravitate to the most powerful chassis? Pshaw. If that where the case, you'd see a whole lot more TBR's, SCR's, etc around...

Oh. Wait.

[Wintersdark]

Endost33L, on 12 October 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Today i had a game that did 0 damage in my 70kph firebrand when an ACH found me near the spawn of mine collective and insta cored me from behind, i got pissed and logged off for the day. Accidents like that make people asking for balance and yes some lights need it bad. (firebrands suck right now and i wouldn't play them only if they were OP)

Accidents?

Funny story. I do occupational health and safety accident investigations at work - I'm the head investigator, in fact. You know the most interesting part of that? There are almost no accidents. Ever.

Oh, bad things happen, for sure. But in every single case, it's not actually an accident. Somebody made mistakes, broke procedure, did something stupid. Somebody is pretty much always at fault.

And in this case? An ACH found you, alone, at your spawn point? He instacored you from behind? Lets look at that.

1) Why were you alone?
2) at spawn so late into the match?
3) He had to get REALLY close to you, without you noticing him coming. Did he have ECM? Didn't you notice the "LOW SIGNAL" warning of his approach? Not many ACH's forgo ECM, or turn it off.
4) He crept up, very close behind you, and managed to put both alphas 100% into your CT or a side torso. Why didn't you start twisting? Unless you're running a really slow engine, you can twist reasonably quickly, and a JM6 with a decent engine can keep a light off his rear.

You basically gift wrapped your Firebrand for him. You played poorly, and got ganked.

You SHOULD die fast from someone who gets behind you, particularly if you're packing an XL engine.

[Khobai]

Quote

Even in a Direwhale, there are precisely zero light pilots who can get into my back arc and stay there. Zero. Not because I'm particularly good.

you dont have to "stay there". that is a fallacy. you only have to run behind the direwolf, take a shot at its back, then run away. And then you repeat that once the direwolfs attention is focused on something else.

its stupid for a light mech to stay there and fight something like a direwolf, its contrary to how light mechs are actually played, which is hit-and-run harassment style of play.

Quote

But not because he was magically able to stay behind me, even being a vastly better player than I. Just because he picks the right moments to do it.

exactly. its called finesse. and its what seperates good light players from bad ones.

you dont try to "stay" in an assault mech's back arc. you pick the right time to go into their back arc when their attention is focused elsewhere. the absolute best way to take down a direwolf is to have one mech in front of it and one mech behind it, so no matter how it focuses its attention, its always getting shot in the back.

Edited by Khobai, 13 October 2015 - 02:07 AM.

[Yellonet]

One of the bigger problems with light mechs with small lasers are the maps.
That's right, the maps are too small and have too much cover everywhere which makes it easy for light mechs to get into range without being seen or shot at.
If we had larger flatter maps, bigger mechs with long range weapons would get to shoot at the lights well before they got into range.

[Curccu]

Jazzbandit1313, on 12 October 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Here's what we need to see more of:

1. Builds that support the team by targeting, relaying information, deploying UAV's, rather than headhunting the entire round.

2. NARC's, lots and lots of NARC's.

3. TAG lasers anyone?

4. LRM5/10's for long range harassment.

5. MIXED laser loadouts.

1. Well sure why not, that does contribute to team but bug games are not coordinated and even if you give good intel some people will ignore that and do their thing instead. So it doesn't really work that well, try MRBC/RHOD and you will see this...

2-3. Why would you take narc if cannot know there is even 1 LRM launcher in whole team, same with tag.

4. LRMs? really.... REALLY?!?!??!?!?!ONEONE H*LL NO!

5. Usually not that smart to have mixed lazors, only my Commando 1B uses mixed lasers.

[GreyNovember]

Yellonet, on 13 October 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

One of the bigger problems with light mechs with small lasers are the maps.
That's right, the maps are too small and have too much cover everywhere which makes it easy for light mechs to get into range without being seen or shot at.
If we had larger flatter maps, bigger mechs with long range weapons would get to shoot at the lights well before they got into range.

And this is a good thing? You want to basically make small laser lights impossible to run?

Khobai, on 13 October 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

exactly. its called finesse. and its what seperates good light players from bad ones.

Right. And they should be rewarded for being good, yes?

[Weeny Machine]

It is no surprise that people gravitate to lights which have big alphas and preferably carrying ECMs as well.
Weaponry:
The high alphas help to make a risky attack run worth the effort – the less exposed the better

PLUS: A good deal of SRMs often do not even register...lasers have no velocity and register...so...

ECM:
Heck play a Raven without ECM which hasn’t the hitboxes of a FS or ACH – it is fragile as hell. With the ******** high alphas all it takes to get stuck on one pebble and lose speed to lose a part of your mech. How fun!


Info warfare:
Currently it is not worth to play anything else as what you call "light meta" as a light pilot. Even the in-game rewards reflect that. Info warfare has hardly any use (sometimes a bit as spotter). You get more by doing damage, kills and assists.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 13 October 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Adiuvo, on 12 October 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

If you're still at spawn in a 70kph mech in the time it takes for a light to cross the map, you either were AFK or running around in random directions. Furthermore, you can only get one shot if you're running an XL engine with minimal back armor. Running minimal back armor is a perfectly fine thing to do and is often optimal, unless you have poor situational awareness in which case you should put enough on so that you can't get one shot.

...or if hitreg decides suddenly that the shot which actually hit your front armour is miracously transfered to your back armour...

[adamts01]

I mainly pilot lights and I agree the Firestarter and Cheetah are a problem. The same way the blackjack, timby, stormcrow etc are a problem. It's laser boating in general. There needs to be more ghost heat. I think LRMs are perfectly balanced. Once/if the ecm bubble is reduced they'll have a much better place and in turn you'll see more spotters. But seriously. Go try put this job you envision lights should be doing and see how that works for you and your team.

[Myke Pantera]

Jazzbandit1313, on 12 October 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Here's what we need to see more of:

1. Builds that support the team by targeting, relaying information, deploying UAV's, rather than headhunting the entire round.

2. NARC's, lots and lots of NARC's.

3. TAG lasers anyone?

4. LRM5/10's for long range harassment.

5. MIXED laser loadouts.

To most points i say yes, BUT here's why i don't see it happen any time soon:

@1: Economy punishes you for not being selfish. This may have become better, but still.

@2: Due to ECM everywhere, LRMs are a thing of the past. Why would you spend huge amounts of tonnage on gear that might not even be useful at all. I barely see LRMs these days.

@3: See @2 (with less tonnage impact).

@4: Nope. Lights have never been a good LRM platform, ever. How many stock LRM IS lights do you know from the TR 3050? There aren't many, for good reasons. Also given how LRMs only work if used in numbers (or otherwise AMS will just eat them) I don't see this happen.

@5: Quirks, weapon modules and min-maxing don't work well with mixed (aka balanced) loadouts (plus many ppl only wonna use 2 weapongroups, because of mouse buttons and all...).

So while 1-3 & 5 would be desirable, it would need some mayor rebalance for it to happen, and frankly I don't see it happen. So i play my beloved Panther knowing that most people in my team will curse me for not running a proper light. And i don't give a shirt.

[TexAce]

Endost33L, on 12 October 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Also the fact that lights are the least played weight class does not have to do with how "overpowered" they are, the percentages just show what players want to play the most. Assuming that the most overpowered CLASS will be the most played one is just a weird assumption.

Those kind of "assumptions" prevented us from having 12vs10 ISvsClan matches and isntead got the quirkening....bah

[Weeny Machine]

The Atlas Overlord, on 12 October 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

So lights:
Small hit boxes (huge advantage)
Fast (huge advantage)

Assaults:
Giant hitboxes (huge disadvantage)
Slow (huge disadvantage)
Armor is meaningless b/c a light can bypass it by going around you, and everything else can't miss you (huge disadvantage)

Why again should lights also be able to do as much damage as assaults?

Yeah, lights dominate the battlefield. That’s why their queue is so long and you have to wait ages to get a m… oh wait…no those were heavies.

I do not want to elaborate why you are wrong. Just digest what I wrote above and at least consider that you should reconsider your opinion...and play "normal" lights like non-ECM Ravens etc

The Atlas Overlord, on 12 October 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

when I want to absorb enemy fire, I take a light mech)

Just an advise: such sentences discredit yourself totally

Edited by Bush Hopper, 13 October 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[jss78]

I think pretty evidently lights are not OP, otherwise they wouldn't be at ~10-15% of the queue. I just really dislike that the lights which are run are mostly those cookie-cutter, one-button SPL boats. Lots of reasons given already in this thread, as to why they're what people run.

I think the broader problem are just the damage-centric match reward formulas, which leads to both lights and mediums being grossly under-represented. They already have those non-damage rewards coded in, so I wish they'd bump the XP/c-bill/match score numbers associated with them, up to the point that people are willing to run something other than 70-100 tonners.

(PS. Anyone else notice how much more fun the games were, the last week or so, as we had this influx of Mediums due to the Crabs and all the (L) Mediums being released on the same day? I think for a few days we were closer to lore-correct weight-class distributions than we've been for a long time.)

[adamts01]

I mainly pilot lights and I agree the Firestarter and Cheetah are a problem. The same way the blackjack, timby, stormcrow etc are a problem. It's laser boating in general. There needs to be more ghost heat. I think LRMs are perfectly balanced. Once/if the ecm bubble is reduced they'll have a much better place and in turn you'll see more spotters. But seriously. Go try put this job you envision lights should be doing and see how that works for you and your team.

[Yozaa]

More people need to aim for legs

[Arctourus]

hit someone with a narc = 30% of damage done from incoming LRMS should go to the person who fired the narc.......that would make it better. Maybe do something similar with TAG.

And, really OP, if you're argument is that a light that has nothing but energy hardpoints, and a boatload of them at that, should be forced to not use them effectively....well, that's a bad argument.