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Mech Re-Balance Pts Phase 2


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#441 Wintersdark

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 06:43 PM

View PostCoralld, on 14 October 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Jokes aside, I like the vast majority of the changes. The, what I call, Magnifying Glass mechanic, that reduces your optimal range by 60% when not targeting an enemy is a different story.

Honestly, it's pretty fun. Matches have a very different dynamic and TTK is a lot longer.

Interestingly, my now unquirked IS mechs still feel quite good on the battlefield, and at the same time my Clan mechs don't feel particularly nerfed. Mind you, I had few real laser vomit mechs, having grown bored with it.

#442 Fractis Zero

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 06:44 PM

I think all the ranters need to take a deep breath and read the part that this is a 1st pass TEST. They are gathering data and feedback. Now if you rant like a child do you think PGI will take your post seriously? Stop, take a deep breath, formulate your concerns and write it down like an adult.

#443 Coralld

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 06:47 PM

View PostKael 17, on 14 October 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

And PGI fails freshman English and 6th grade math.

The test server does not show a reduction of maximum range by forty percent.

It does show a reduction in maximum range by twenty percent, which, incidentally, is forty percent of the range envelope beyond optimum range. (Under the circumstances, I assume that this was what PGI meant to say.)

Incidentally. The IS ER Large and Large Pulse lasers have also taken this twenty percent hit to their maximum range.

Dear Lord.

Just going to copy and past what I posted earlier.

View PostCoralld, on 14 October 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

Here is the thing, the 40% Max range reduction was to the weapons damage fall-off range, just as many here were saying.
Don't believe me? Here is the actual files for them.
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERMediumLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanERML_desc" nameTag="@ClanERML"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.15" tons="1" maxRange="648" longRange="405" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="3.0" heat="6.0" impulse="0.0" minheatpenaltylevel="7" heatpenalty="1.4" heatdamage="0" damage="7" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="1" Health="15" requireTargetForFullRange="1" visRange="1500" heatPenaltyID="10"/>


<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanLargePulseLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanLPL_desc" nameTag="@ClanLPL"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.12" tons="6" maxRange="960" longRange="600"


<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERSmallLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanERSL_desc" nameTag="@ClanERSL"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.0" tons="0.5" maxRange="320" longRange="200"

What you are seeing is the effect of the 60% reduction to weapon range when not targeting an enemy and bringing your cross hairs over said target. This right here is a different mechanic then the base weapon stats them selves.


View PostWintersdark, on 14 October 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Honestly, it's pretty fun. Matches have a very different dynamic and TTK is a lot longer.

Interestingly, my now unquirked IS mechs still feel quite good on the battlefield, and at the same time my Clan mechs don't feel particularly nerfed. Mind you, I had few real laser vomit mechs, having grown bored with it.

I agree wholeheartedly but, I don't know, still kinda iffy, the 60% just seams a tad to harsh, perhaps have it reduced to 30 - 40%?

Edited by Coralld, 14 October 2015 - 06:57 PM.


#444 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 07:05 PM

View PostFractis Zero, on 14 October 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

I think all the ranters need to take a deep breath and read the part that this is a 1st pass TEST. They are gathering data and feedback. Now if you rant like a child do you think PGI will take your post seriously? Stop, take a deep breath, formulate your concerns and write it down like an adult.


Indeed, I don't understand how this is so difficult to comprehend. Everything is very much a work in progress, and nothing here can even be remotely considered final.

View PostCoralld, on 14 October 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

Dear Lord.

Just going to copy and past what I posted earlier.



I agree wholeheartedly but, I don't know, still kinda iffy, the 60% just seams a tad to harsh, perhaps have it reduced to 30 - 40%?


Agreed, I very much doubt it'll be this value at release, but I think 40-50% is a much more balanced number.

#445 DAYLEET

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 07:39 PM

So far i like it better than what we have live right now.


and i get to say "laser boat here, hold lock" and giggle like a little girl.

Edited by DAYLEET, 14 October 2015 - 07:40 PM.


#446 BearFlag

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 08:00 PM

View PostTincan Nightmare, on 14 October 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:


Again, think about this from the IS players perspective. If it takes 2 or 3 IS mechs to take on a single Clan mech, who is going to play IS? Yah there are some players saying they would be willing to play it that way, but how many would actually keep playing as cannon fodder? How fun would it be to launch into a match, do some damage to an uber powerful Clanner, and then get blown away hoping that you did enough damage that your teammates can capitalize on to bring him down before they die too? The only goal for a Clan win would be to get a quick 2 or 3 kills, then mop up an IS force that no longer has a numerical advantage and has weaker mechs. People forget that it wasn't just numbers that limited the Clans in TT, but also Clan rules of combat, where they tried to 'duel' their opponents and wouldn't combine fire on targets. In MWO, the Clan team will easily focus fire and just mow thru the IS team.

Look at how the light queue in matches is always so low. People flock to the heavy and assault mechs, because they want the more powerful unit, and don't want to use a more fragile/weaker machine. If Clans are just made OP as from lore, the majority of the player base will just start using Clan mechs, hurting wait times as the IS team takes longer to fill up (especially as it must be larger than the Clan team).


I don't think many are arguing that Clan mechs should be OP. Rather there should be a distinction in their ton-for-ton effectiveness. The present state is about right. Clan mechs are generally better, but not hugely so. To level them with IS steals their identity and destroys any vestigial connection with the BT story line. You may as well eliminate the Clans, give the chassis IS weapons and engines and then "balance."

Balance should be sought in matchmaking, not in radical systemic changes. Individual mechs and families of mechs certainly need attention, but this approach will just make mechs numbingly similar. A 55 tonner with four E hardpoints will be little different than any other 55 tonner with four E.

Match-level balancing is by far the easiest method too (once PGI learns to write a good MM). In open play IS/Clan difference is balanced through mixed teams. In CW, this means numeric balancing.

The slight edge Clan mechs have has not caused a flood of pilots to turn to the dark side. Nor does the current paucity of lights have much to do with players gravitating to big, strong mechs. Just a few months ago there were plenty of light pilots, myself included. It DOES have a lot to do with changes that render the light less effective and less fun. The laser meta, the poor visibility on new maps, the ground level "vegetation" that's taller than a light, and the outrageous blocks, rocks, stumps, steps, branches ...

====

Lasers. Last I checked, lasers are by their very nature "focused." So what is being discussed is convergence of slightly separated weapons. This requires only a known range. And the reticule is a range finder. No additional magic "targeting" is required. Targeting would provide exactly zero additional accuracy unless an active system were employed (tag for lasers? Nah.). This arbitrary nerf is offensive and unrealistic.

Speaking of "realistic", I've read over and over that this is a fictional game in a fictional universe so they can make any change they like and give any explanation for it. Um, no, they can't. In fiction, "suspension of disbelief" must be EARNED by the author. They don't suspend my disbelief by offending my common sense.

A better way to tone down lasers universally and intuitively is to take a (quasi-)scientific approach. Linear attenuation as soon as the beam leaves the emitter. This is how real lasers work in an atmosphere. (It's actually not perfectly linear. Variables are involved. But generally, yeah, it's linear.) You can then make any additional needed adjustments to weapons without fritzing the stable principle.

#447 J0anna

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 08:44 PM

Obviously I need to get in the PTS and test these changes. The reduction in heat capacity should apply to both IS and clans. I'd really rather see the heat scale hard locked at 30.

The laser nerf seems a bit harsh, but I need to see it in action. One issue I notice is that IS lasers should never do more damage than clan lasers, clan lasers pay for their higher damage with longer burn times, higher heat and longer cycle times. Weight is normally not an issue. The problem I see is with the IS ERLL, it not only outreaches the clan ERLL, but also will out damage it from around 922m out to 1350m. While being cooler and cycling faster. This actually makes the clan ERLL the inferior weapon. Some people might think that both the clan and IS ERLL have the same cycle times, but the clan cycle time starts after the burn is done, resulting in a .25 second longer cycle time. Either impose the 40% max range nerf on ALL ER lasers, or reduce the burn time or heat of the clan ERLL.

Now the next problem, once IS ER lasers come out, if they don't suffer the 40% max range nerf they will be greatly superior to all other lasers. Thus what I have worried about is coming to pass. All newer weapons will need to be nerfed down into uselessness or they will become overpowered and thus we are stuck with new weapons that neither hit harder nor have longer range since we decided to balance around the garbage tech 1 weapons. Thus weapon advancement in MWO is effectively over, I don't see how this will increase the longevity of the game, if mechs of today are as deadly as mechs will ever be.....

#448 Wintersdark

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 08:46 PM

View PostMoenrg, on 14 October 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

Obviously I need to get in the PTS and test these changes. The reduction in heat capacity should apply to both IS and clans. I'd really rather see the heat scale hard locked at 30.

The laser nerf seems a bit harsh, but I need to see it in action. One issue I notice is that IS lasers should never do more damage than clan lasers, clan lasers pay for their higher damage with longer burn times, higher heat and longer cycle times. Weight is normally not an issue. The problem I see is with the IS ERLL, it not only outreaches the clan ERLL, but also will out damage it from around 922m out to 1350m. While being cooler and cycling faster. This actually makes the clan ERLL the inferior weapon. Some people might think that both the clan and IS ERLL have the same cycle times, but the clan cycle time starts after the burn is done, resulting in a .25 second longer cycle time. Either impose the 40% max range nerf on ALL ER lasers, or reduce the burn time or heat of the clan ERLL.

Now the next problem, once IS ER lasers come out, if they don't suffer the 40% max range nerf they will be greatly superior to all other lasers. Thus what I have worried about is coming to pass. All newer weapons will need to be nerfed down into uselessness or they will become overpowered and thus we are stuck with new weapons that neither hit harder nor have longer range since we decided to balance around the garbage tech 1 weapons. Thus weapon advancement in MWO is effectively over, I don't see how this will increase the longevity of the game, if mechs of today are as deadly as mechs will ever be.....

Please, check your facts first.

The IS ERLL has the same range nerfs that the Clan ERLL has.

#449 Vanguard319

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 09:00 PM

So my Summoner has just lost it's last remaining weapons that were still effective? Good job PGI, why don't you just make Clan ferro provide 0 armor per ton while you're at it? Hell, just have all Clan mechs instantly die as soon as they drop, and the IS can win without even having to fight.

Looks like it's back to the island for me. If anyone wants to join me, I'll save you a coconut.

#450 luigi256

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 09:10 PM

I had a few battles on the PTS both in clan and IS mechs.

Combat wise I didn't play any differently at all and it made no difference for me. I couldn't tell if my heat was higher or lower from an alpha as it generally felt the same. As I always target my enemies I did not notice any damage/range differences from laser weapons. The usual strategy of go to point x on the map and move out from there to find the enemy still worked out the same.

I know that there were supposed to be sensor changes for heavier mechs but I couldn't tell at all. Mechs were always near each other so information was available almost immediately like on the live servers now.

The biggest difference was the ECM change. That was a welcomed change that allowed LRM mechs more play. It also makes it a piece of equipment that is not 100 percent needed if the mech can equip it.

#451 J0anna

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 09:37 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 14 October 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:


Please, check your facts first.

The IS ERLL has the same range nerfs that the Clan ERLL has.


Still at work, so getting on the test server will have to wait. (note I said I will have to get on the test server....) I was going by the PTS notes, which astonishingly say nothing about nerfs to IS ER LL's. If they suffer the same 40% nerf, then it should be about right.

However, I had hoped that future mechs would be more deadly and thus we'd have a reason to get then. By treading down this path, PGI has eliminated this reason to expand our inventories. That doesn't seem like a well thought out decision on their part.....

#452 Wintersdark

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 10:04 PM

View PostVanguard319, on 14 October 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

So my Summoner has just lost it's last remaining weapons that were still effective? Good job PGI, why don't you just make Clan ferro provide 0 armor per ton while you're at it? Hell, just have all Clan mechs instantly die as soon as they drop, and the IS can win without even having to fight.

Looks like it's back to the island for me. If anyone wants to join me, I'll save you a coconut.

And more ridiculous, ignorant over reaction.

LRM's became more effective.

Clan Lasers are just as good because IS Lasers have had all their quirks removed. Even with the reduce maximum range on ER lasers (IS ERLL as well) Clan lasers are still objectively better than their IS counterparts.

cERML: 405m Optimal, 685 Max.
IS ML: 270 Optimal, 540 Max.

cERML's still do more damage, and more damage at all ranges than IS ML's.

This applies to all the Clan lasers. They are still better weapons.

View PostMoenrg, on 14 October 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

However, I had hoped that future mechs would be more deadly and thus we'd have a reason to get then. By treading down this path, PGI has eliminated this reason to expand our inventories. That doesn't seem like a well thought out decision on their part.....


How would future mechs be more deadly even before this? Mechs themselves where not altered here. I don't understand how this would affect buying new mechs or not in any way, shape, or form vs. the present situation.

As well, adding more, always more powerful mechs results in power creep and pay2win complaints. Ideally, those new mechs should offer new and different build options, new and different geometries, etc. They should not be objectively better.

#453 Asmosis

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 10:21 PM

Not a fan of the laser lock on damage penalty, since most of the time I don't lock onto the target I'm firing at whether I'm using ballistic, srm or lasers. I don't use lrms much so lock on is more of an afterthought.

If you are going to do this though, you need to do it across *ALL* weapons. SRM's should get a wider spread, ballistics do less damage as well since it just doesn't make sense tbh, best to not make sense equally.

the sensor range nerf makes a lot of sense, if you want to use long range weapons at near max range, you'll need scouts/logistics to pull it off.

*edit*
to clarify, I don't lock on because I can see the mech, I know whats damaged/not damaged and where his weapons are. Target lock is much better used on a target you can't see for better situational awareness while you shoot the one you can see. if there's nothing else to target he's going to get locked by default anyway.

Edited by Asmosis, 14 October 2015 - 10:31 PM.


#454 ChewBaka

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 10:37 PM

View PostPereset, on 14 October 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

I really like the fact that PGI is making the effort to re-balance the Clan mechs.

I notice a lot of dissent from Clan mech owners, but it is obvious to see why many are incensed. They will be losing their overpowering edge with lasers. Perhaps now, our CW matches will decrease in frustration as the playing field becomes more even between IS and Clan mech technology. Who know? Perhaps we might see more people who subverted to the Clan units, return to the IS units.

(Fat chance, there. But, it is part of my "wish" box. IS units lost a lot of excellent players to Clan factions.)

I'm hoping to see Clan paper targets in the practice maps one day, so that IS gunners FINALLY have a chance to practice more accurate head shot windows on our Clan counterparts.

In regard to ECM, does this also mean that any Clan ECM will no longer counter IS ECM, regardless whether Clan is in counter or not? Ever since PGI rolled out Clan ECM mechs, we in the Inner Sphere found our ECM inneffective due to "make believe" frequency overload jamming when in Clan ECM radius, rendering our ECM effectiveness to ZERO.

For me, this is less about how many clan mechs I own (just slightly more) but more about the game's identity.

Clan tech is supposed to be superior. That's what Mechwarrior is all about.

If you take too much of it away, how is it even clan tech anymore? How is it even Battletech?

For me, when I choose to drive a IS mech, its making a conscience decision to not be so overly concerned about the meta and just have fun. I would rather PGI find some other ways to make this game more engaging than making it just about who dishes the most dmg.

#455 Kmieciu

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 10:48 PM

View PostKael 17, on 14 October 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

And PGI fails freshman English and 6th grade math.

That's so funny, because it's actually true:
https://www.ixl.com/math/grade-6

#456 Arkhangel

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 11:46 PM

View PostAsmosis, on 14 October 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

Not a fan of the laser lock on damage penalty, since most of the time I don't lock onto the target I'm firing at whether I'm using ballistic, srm or lasers. I don't use lrms much so lock on is more of an afterthought.

If you are going to do this though, you need to do it across *ALL* weapons. SRM's should get a wider spread, ballistics do less damage as well since it just doesn't make sense tbh, best to not make sense equally.

the sensor range nerf makes a lot of sense, if you want to use long range weapons at near max range, you'll need scouts/logistics to pull it off.

*edit*
to clarify, I don't lock on because I can see the mech, I know whats damaged/not damaged and where his weapons are. Target lock is much better used on a target you can't see for better situational awareness while you shoot the one you can see. if there's nothing else to target he's going to get locked by default anyway.

fact is, you SHOULD lock. it helps your team take down targets faster. locking should be second nature to all pilots anyways.

this is a team game. lock and help your team. also, swapping through available locks can really help you find easier kills faster, not to mention allow you to target call a weak assault that could otherwise end up killing three people on your team because everyone ignored it.

Edited by Arkhangel, 14 October 2015 - 11:48 PM.


#457 Vellron2005

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 11:46 PM

Warriors of the BattleTech!

What news from the PTS?

What do the laser ranges say?

I have unfortunately, not installed the PTS to test the changes, so I'm eager to know.. how do the ranges look like now?

#458 Wintersdark

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 11:54 PM

View PostVellron2005, on 14 October 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:

Warriors of the BattleTech!

What news from the PTS?

What do the laser ranges say?

I have unfortunately, not installed the PTS to test the changes, so I'm eager to know.. how do the ranges look like now?

Fine, really. In actual practice, Clans still have a substantial range advantage. The damage falloff without lock is manageable but somewhat silly and unintuitive.

It's the "good result" for max range: That is, the distance from Optimal to Max is reduced by 40%, so for example the cERML is now 405 optimal 648 max.

#459 Ialdabaoth

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 12:00 AM

Adjusting damage based on target lock is incorrect; instead, you should only get convergence if you have a target lock (and convergence should be to the distance to the locked mech, instead of distance to the reticle).

Also, target ranges should work the other way:

All mechs should have a default sensor range of 750 meters; individual mechs might change this based on quirks or installing a BAP.

Assaults are detectable to this range; heavies are detectable to 90% of this range; mediums are detectable to 80% of this range; lights are detectable to 75% of this range. ECM both cuts this detection range in half, and causes a 3 second delay for detection inside this range.

Edited by Ialdabaoth, 15 October 2015 - 12:06 AM.


#460 Tank

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 12:35 AM

Well... It was choice between of restricting Clan player to play as actual Clanners and not some dezgra scum - since no one wish to play by rules, because "war have no rules", yeah but we had a game and sportsmanship - but we also didn't want that.

People just wish "WIN!" button. <_<

So yeah, balance them out, there just no other option.





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