572 replies to this topic

[Domenoth]

Cmdr Hurrell, on 14 October 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

FORTY% decrease in maximum range?
Clan double heat sinks are now WORSE than IS? What???? da???? Fu*k????

I know those are not locked-in numbers, but you know what is worrying? That these people chose to use these ridiculous values as a starting point, because, chances are very high that the final numbers will fall quite close to these.
So sad.

Domenoth, on 14 October 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Just checked out the build. ER Lasers (Even IS ones) appear to have their range beyond optimum reduced by 40%.

So claims that cERLL would have range of 884 are false.
Claims that ISERLL would have greater range than cERLL are false.

Can people please calm down now?

Guess not

Edited by Domenoth, 14 October 2015 - 02:54 PM.

[Felio]

The thing with lasers doing less damage at range without a lock seems astonishingly dumb. It makes no logical sense, and it is just an arbitrary and heavy-handed overreaction to laser boats.

Does ECM delay the appearance of the red dorito or the red box around your target? Or detailed target data? You need to define these terms and use them consistently.

[M A S E]

Bashing on the Clans again? This is beginning to piss me off. PTS server or not this very disappointing to see that PGI's perspective on balancing the two hasn't shifted direction very much. But whatever, rather than getting disappointed, practicing on mechanics that are redundant anyway. I'll just come back to try it when it goes live. If PGI succeeds with it, I'll be a happy camper.

But if I was a betting man (which I am)... I'll put my money on the fact that if PGI doesn't make this re balance work properly within the first couple weeks of it launching that it may be time to find a new primary game for me to play.. Like Elite Dangerous. That has been addicting to me lately.. and knowing the HUD makes my cpu purr like a kitten as upposed to MWO, I can actually pull a constant 90 fps without game mechanics being a petty choke point in the quality of my gaming experience. I guess on that note, see yall when I come back. :\

Edited by M A S E, 14 October 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[nemesis271989]

Screw the Lore in the name of the Balance

I love upcoming changes, hope to see it soon.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

Took a two week break from the game because of issues. I come back and see this...this...whatever this is. So I go onto Teamspeak to ask people if it's all true. They all laugh at how terrible this is. Lasers need to hit locked targets to do full damage? So what you've just done is remove lasers from the equation. PPCs and Ballistics are back in style baby! And lasers are relegated to being the ugly ******* red-headed step child that you bring out once in a while to make fun of it.

You're trying to force people to use ECM because it's something you feel they should want to do but you're trying to Gerry rig it into place. Your whole game is about big stompy robots that shoot each other and games rarely last over 10 minutes. Sometimes less than 5 and all the fighting is done within visual range. ECM is supposed to work in two ways, disrupting the enemy's communications and disrupting their view of the battlefield. View disruption isn't anywhere near as big an issue when the fighting is done close up and in game comms are done via Teamspeak for the most part, so you got a lame duck right there, you're just adding an other overly complicated mechanic that doesn't solve the real issues. Sort of like ghost heat.

This has been said many times before, the real issue in the game is time to kill and pin point damage. Make a floating reticle that affects the accuracy of the weapon based on the weapon type and for ballistics, give it an extra penalty based on number of balisitcs fired at once (AC20 having the largest deviation and MGs having basically none).

Right now, what PGI is doing is what Blizzard does to WoW every new PVP season and expansion, it attempts to radically change the game to fit it's whim of the day and as a result, is playing whack a mole every month trying to fix builds. Fix the issues once and for all and do it properly and stick to your guns. Newbies will always moan and whine that they get creamed. I also understand that you don't want to lose them. But ask yourselves if 10 newbies are worth losing me over? I've got literally every top tier package, I got marauder, I got warhammer and I got Clans IIC. Top tier for each one. I also got 11K MC. This kind of back and forth makes me want to ask for refunds. Give this game realistic physics, realistic mechanics and stop nerfing things to the ground because soon we'll all be boxing in mechs.

Edited by Lysander Voidrunner, 14 October 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Cowboy1]

From what I've seen in a couple matches, it's now ballistic poptarts, and LRMs.

[Omi_]

My $0.-2: I'm very excited for these changes. Everything seems very well thought out by PGI; especially the parts regarding laser rebalance. I forsee people complaining about laser changes now, but still boating them like its the meta tomorrow.

I can understand threatening to stop playing the game if you don't like changes on the production servers, but threatening to stop using a product because the developer is testing new concept on a totally different branch... are you people 12?

[stoogah]

Stop nefring things? I'd say nerf moar! Only nerfs will give us longer ttk. I have been 1-shotted enough so I will gladly test the changes.

Someone posted a good idea not long ago... about weapons converging only at targeted mech. People were extremely positive about this. Maybe laser nerf to non targeted mechs is some kind of replacement for this. It will basically do the same thing but it's much easier to implement.

Also don't forget it's only PTS.

[Domenoth]

stoogah, on 14 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

Stop nefring things? I'd say nerf moar! Only nerfs will give us longer ttk. I have been 1-shotted enough so I will gladly test the changes.

Someone posted a good idea not long ago... about weapons converging only at targeted mech. People were extremely positive about this. Maybe laser nerf to non targeted mechs is some kind of replacement for this. It will basically do the same thing but it's much easier to implement.

Also don't forget it's only PTS.

Also, Mechs like Nova and Hunchback have tightly packed groups of lasers. Lack of convergence wouldn't affect them much at all. So as much as I like the convergence idea, I don't think it successfully addressed all cases like damage reduction does.

[freud2b]

No you're serious IGP ?

After the Big nerf Timber and Storm with negative Quirks. yet you continue !!!! Please stop immediately !!! you are become crazy !!!!

-40% And -Heat Sink is unreal !!

I remind you that the clan has a big disadvantage with XL motors easy to destroy a dorsal (and even more in close combat). And not change the engine !!! and impossible to change upgrade and Timber only 3 mech module !!!!

The IS very Quirks +, will have all the advantages of a clan Clamped and with much - Quirks .

Why even nerf clan, I play today as well as IS clan and I find that there is a very good balance now. Do not have touched it !!!



Arrange rather things that do not go (as improve the new maps that are very drafts, messy), rather than destroy things working properly.

You will destroy all the games doing that !!! it will stay IS vs IS only .

If you do this, this is really too much for me,I think the package marauder (Yes IS) was my last purchase in this game. I'm tired and I would ask my a refund of any package purchased from IS and mechs clan (who too was a decrease from the original that I bought ) and I would leave permanently Mwo.

Note that I think you might lose a lot of players .

(sorry for my bad English)

Edited by freud2b, 14 October 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Domenoth, on 14 October 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

Also, Mechs like Nova and Hunchback have tightly packed groups of lasers. Lack of convergence wouldn't affect them much at all. So as much as I like the convergence idea, I don't think it successfully addressed all cases like damage reduction does.

That's exactly why convergence is better. Mechs with tightly packed groups have all of their weapons stored in one component and are therefor easier to neuter. Besides, are you telling me that the Nova and the hunchback are overpowered?

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 14 October 2015 - 04:11 PM.

[Domenoth]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

That's exactly why convergence is better. Mechs with tightly packed groups have all of their weapons stored in one component and are therefor easier to neuter. Besides, are you telling me that the Nova and the hunchback are overpowered?

I think they might be if the only way to get convergence is to have a target lock on your target. For Mechs LIKE the Nova and Hunchback P, tying convergence to target lock would mean nothing because most of their weapons are so tightly packed they will hit the same component whether they converge or not.

60% damage to unlocked targets affects every Mech equally regardless of hardpoint density.

Edited by Domenoth, 14 October 2015 - 04:25 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

OK been playing the PTS for an hour.

this is way better than the live server

i want to stay here.

bravo pgi.
.
everything is super cool, ttk is back up,
managing heat is back in the game with no silly heat quirks
the laser thing isn't a huge deal

i was only skeptical about the laser thing, but i shouldn't have been

[Bloodweaver]

Domenoth, on 14 October 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

I think they might be if the only way to get convergence is to have a target lock on your target. For Mechs LIKE the Nova and Hunchback P, tying convergence to target lock would mean nothing because most of their weapons are so tightly packed they will hit the same component whether they converge or not.

60% damage to unlocked targets affects every Mech equally regardless of hardpoint density.

Did you even read Jack Shayu Walker's reply before repeating your originally-stated point? He said that yeah, tighter clusters will give an advantage to those 'Mechs that have them in "blind fighting" situations - but those same tighter clusters will also be more vulnerable to being destroyed. This is perfect example of intrinsic, natural, elegant balance. Your weapon group can be more effective in this one particular situation, at the cost of being an easier target for your enemies. It would have both an upside and a downside.

An artificially-forced damage reduction, on the other hand, is ham-fisted, obtuse, illogical, and plain old stupid - no two ways about it. There's no reasonable basis to it whatsoever. It is literally the laziest possible solution to the "problem" of laser sniping.

[Wintersdark]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

That's exactly why convergence is better. Mechs with tightly packed groups have all of their weapons stored in one component and are therefor easier to neuter. Besides, are you telling me that the Nova and the hunchback are overpowered?

Exactly!

It achieves so many aims all at once, it's beautiful.

Tight packed weapons have the advantage of dealing damage close together when not targeting, but they're more vulnerable there for the very reason the Hunchback's Hunch based weapons have always been vulnerable. Give and take.

In a brawl, up close, you're still going to be doing good, reasonably well directed damage untargeted in most cases; but you also avoid severe convergence issues some mechs have with wide spread arms once a mech is targeted too. Ever brawl in a King Crab, or a Dragon? Those wide arms do funky things with convergence if your crosshairs slip off the mech/between it's legs/etc.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Can a moderator pin this thread to the front page?

[Gumon Choji]

Dear PGI.

I like some of what you are doing but other parts do not look like fun.

The ECM is exactly what I asked for. Let us target but make missile locks stink with it. Good work.

The range of detection on mech classes. Not cool. Unless it is just info gathering. Then you have it right. But making LRMs a hide weapon is the problem already. It will encourage this behavior even more.

Target to get more damage...... I think there is a better solution. If not targeted it shoots to to the ground in the distance. Thus convergence takes lock. Damage should not as the side effect will be much more friendly fire like shoot through the team mates. Convergence makes the damage spread and miss.

Clan and IS heatsink mod. looks about right make std hold more heat and double get rid of more. DPS or striker.

Clan lasers nerf. Smack hand. Bad. Bad PGI. 10% or so good. 40% bad PGI. Don't pee on the carpet.

[Wintersdark]

AFTER A FEW MATCHES, MY THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS!


The Feel (with no consideration to numbers or specifics)

Matches play out very differently, on a tactical/strategic level. LRM's are quite a bit more useful, but still only at range. This leads to an interesting battle where having good targeting information is critically valuable. In just a few matches, I've grown to really appreciate lights scouting, and I've been on the bad side of a couple well piloted scouts who've provided the OpFor with good targeting data resulting in largely unavoidable, crushing rain that forces people into cover. This force into cover clusters people up, and makes them quite vulnerable to a well timed push. It never worked reliably before, because ECM.

ECM still matters, particularly if you're peeking and poking - that 3 second or so extension to lock on times basically means you're perfectly safe from LRM retaliation, even if your cover isn't adequate to physically block the LRM's.

In short, I really like how matches are feeling right now.

Clan Laser Nerf

I've been playing strictly Clan mechs thus far in the PTS, to get a good feel for this.

I can honestly say I haven't felt particularly impeded by this change at all, and particularly as opposing IS mechs lack their omnipresent range quirks, I'm still outranging them handily over most bands. I didn't run cERLL's before, so I can't comment on that now, but I'd argue that this change is very close to being a wash, not a massive Clan nerf. It IS a nerf, even given the resultant situation, but not a severe one.

I'm fine with it.

Damage Nerf against Unlocked Targets

Still not liking it, because it's kind of hard to figure out in actual play. The problem I have is targeting is server-side, so there's often a bit of a lag between hitting R and actually getting the target. This becomes strange, and as I'm in a huge hurry to get that target box sometimes I'm hitting R too many times, or simply forced to wait a lot and it's awkward.

I don't like this. Not because of how it nerfs lasers, I'm fine with that, but just because it's awkward and unintuitive.

I'd FAR rather see Pariah Devalis's Twitter suggestion (Here: https://twitter.com/...398205476667392 ) instead; with convergence being tied to target lock instead. That makes complete sense, and is utterly intuitive and understandable, as well as fixing several other serious issues like perpendicularly moving fast and small lights being literally impossible to hit with ballistic type weapons.

Heat

Honestly, I can't say I've really noticed a measurable difference. I realise there IS a difference, but (and the numbers back this) it's ultimately quite small for most cases.

Edited by Wintersdark, 14 October 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[Domenoth]

Bloodweaver, on 14 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Did you even read Jack Shayu Walker's reply before repeating your originally-stated point? He said that yeah, tighter clusters will give an advantage to those 'Mechs that have them in "blind fighting" situations - but those same tighter clusters will also be more vulnerable to being destroyed. This is perfect example of intrinsic, natural, elegant balance. Your weapon group can be more effective in this one particular situation, at the cost of being an easier target for your enemies. It would have both an upside and a downside.

An artificially-forced damage reduction, on the other hand, is ham-fisted, obtuse, illogical, and plain old stupid - no two ways about it. There's no reasonable basis to it whatsoever. It is literally the laziest possible solution to the "problem" of laser sniping.

Funny you should ask if I read his reply. Because I did, and what I was responding to was the direct question he asked to me about whether I thought the Nova and Hunchback P are over powered. I said "they might be with this new system" and "here's why I think that".

Thanks for contributing though.

But now that you've forced me to focus on "neuterability", Mechs with tightly packed weapons aren't the only ones that are "easy to neuter". Anything with most of its weapons on one side is easy to neuter whether or not is has the advantage of a hunch. So again, I believe the convergence solution would be imperfect because it punishes some Mechs more than others. People gravitate to any advantage regardless of how small it might be. Because of that, I think I'd prefer a universal solution over one that's dependent on Mech geometry.

[ARM32]

I'm realy love stuff, when Clan, Large, Pulse laser gets 368m range... It's with module +10%... If someone thinks, that's good idea - think about it again...