285 replies to this topic

[Deimir]

"Lore reason why it does this. The focal length of the laser lenses. No lock = the laser is not at the correct focus on the correct range and you get less that perfect damage. They need to have that lock on to set the range for the laser"

Can't read through the whole topic to see if someone else addressed this, but this is a BS explanation as long as we have instant convergence. So my targeting computer is able to get every weapon system on my mech to zero at a given range, but can't figure out how to also zero the focal lens on a laser at the same time?

[BearFlag]

Lol. Now we're introducing politically correct arguments from your sociology professor into a fiction ... or history, take your pointless pick.

Clan mechs are in no way "OP". They are about five or ten tons over matched. That is significant for game story and character but relatively insignificant if "balance" is applied at match level rather than mech level.

I know relatively squat about BT lore and don't much care. For better or worse, it's the only story line, the only content reference this game has. At best it's 'B' grade sci-fi. For better or worse, the BT inheritance is MWO's only frame of content reference. You can dice it any way, but this is the standing fact.

Leveling eliminates protagonist and antagonist. You'll be left with shoot-'em-up in mech clothes. I like mech duels. A different story would be fine by me. But, PGI can't leverage the simple BT dichotomy into a compelling contest. Do you think they could actually create a new, or a forked, story line, much less an entirely new story?

[Speedy Plysitkos]

DO ITTTTT !

[SaltBeef]

I do not mind some of the other Proposed changes but this Constant Nerf the Clans Crap pisses me off. The Clans got a hell of a lot of ****** mechs, for fuchs sake the Firestarter ran around with warp armor for over a year before it got a minor nerf. Arctic Cheetah was not out 2 weeks before it got arms falloff itis nerf! WTF! Extended Range Clan laser , outranged by a Standard IS LL is Boooooolshist! Lean forward and CHOKE yourself!

[Sarlic]

SaltBeef, on 15 October 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

I do not mind some of the other Proposed changes but this Constant Nerf the Clans Crap pisses me off. The Clans got a hell of a lot of ****** mechs, for fuchs sake the Firestarter ran around with warp armor for over a year before it got a minor nerf. Arctic Cheetah was not out 2 weeks before it got arms falloff itis nerf! WTF! Extended Range Clan laser , outranged by a Standard IS LL is Boooooolshist! Lean forward and CHOKE yourself!

I can understand your frustation, but could you please calm down? You seem to scream death and murder by each clan nerf and i wonder if you got some of the mechpacks refunded since you wrote similar threats few patches ago.

As far on topic: I still need to test it, but i can see problems arising when you want to cycle through the best target when multiple mechs are in your range an shooting at you while you need to figure out which one is the weakest; costing you literally armor and time.

I wonder if this would make the 'scary' team members even stronger if multiple targets comes down their way.

Edited by Sarlic, 15 October 2015 - 12:32 AM.

[Marmon Rzohr]

What is going on here ?

The Clan laser nerf is a good thing. Clan lasers are OP. If you don't think they are OP, you are provably wrong. In fact Clan lasers are so OP it's making playing anything else weak by comparison. I don't know about you but I'd like for Clan mechs to have more options than boating lasers. Options that are not weak by comparison, that is.

As far as the global laser nerf goes, it's hard to say how much of an effect it will have, but I like the direction of the change. If Information Warfare is going to be a thing, having it affect firepower is only way it will ever be a thing. Given that lasers and only lasers (with a bit of Gauss here and there) are the overpowering metagame, it makes sense to try the system with lasers first.

Furthermore I don't think the system is convoluted or anything. Targets that are locked on take bonus laser damage at long range. Bam. That's not complicated at all.

While I don't know if this attempt at balance will be great or how many things will need to be changed, this is a HUGE leap forward form the last Balance PTS, if nothing else. It shows that PGI is thinking in logical lines at least.

If you are worried about the Clans, I'd suggest you stop. The chance of Clans becoming underpowered or weak is as things stand 0%. The only thing that could happen is the Clans moving closer to balance, which is good. It means more variety in Clan build and less hyper quirks (like the SRM spamming Raven) needed for the IS to keep up.

[SaltBeef]

I probably could get the 2C refunded I am sure it will be shitsts since all the IS white knights have cried 10000 forums already B4 release maybe refund the marauder pack. I am not the only one who feels the Constant Nerfs and is is getting rediculous and ass backwards. I bet all the Innersphere players would cry buckets if Autocannons were nerfed to clan status. No more PP damage.

Edited by SaltBeef, 15 October 2015 - 12:40 AM.

[Torgun]

Messing with the laser optimum range due to targetted or not is just stupid and overcomplicate things, but well I suppose we should expect things like this from the Nerfinator.

Edited by Torgun, 15 October 2015 - 12:49 AM.

[50 50]

Quote

I don't need to waste hours of my time downloading another instance of this game to know that creating "ghost damage" loss for some weapons (or any weapons) is idiotic.

Variable Cone of Fire is the only answer, not more illogical, random, and impossible to justify mechanics that punish new players and PUG's and which - ironically - do nothing to actually prevent the pinpoint alpha kill, but rather just delay it a bit.

I'm sorry, what?
You want the weapons to fire in random directions creating numerous other combinations of calculations and HSR oddities that makes it even harder to understand what your weapons are doing?
How does that even make sense?

Given that what is on the test server is a mere fraction of what is being looked at for change, everyone can relax and wait for the player test results to come back before pressing their panic/hate buttons.
If people do not understand the test process, I suggest you keep your comments to yourselves and wait.

It's only dealing with a single (1) new mechanic for the lasers which works in tandem with some of the new information warfare aspects that are being worked through.
We have a single (1) balance idea for the clan lasers to reduce the range.
There is no point even bothering to look/use the autocannons/lbx,SRMs, Gauss or PPC.
They are not in the scope of this test pass.
We can provide constructive feedback on the changes to ECM as this is primarily going to affect LRMS and Streaks.
We can provide constructive feedback on the heatsink changes.
We are primarily still testing the information warfare aspects which after the fist round now look to have been tweaked a little and we need to see how that works in combination with a couple of small changes to the mechanics.

Let's wait and see and collect the data.

[Black Ivan]

PGI is trying to break the almighty Lazor vomit, good idea, but I hope they don't bomb MWO back into the Potard, AC, PPC or SRM Age.

Weapons variability and that all weapons work fine is ok for me. 40 % is much, but I hope they settle on something like 25 % or so.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

SaltBeef, on 15 October 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

I bet all the Innersphere players would cry buckets if Autocannons were nerfed to clan status. No more PP damage.

your tiers are indeed big. But this wont happen, in antoher next 100 yrs. NEVER. now you can continue cry.

[KuroNyra]

I really don't like that. But let's see how it goes.
A good old shitstorm managed to destroy the PPC and LRMS. So why not that system?

[xengk]

Slepnir, on 14 October 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

Thats why the mechanic is supposed to punish you with loss of speed, fuzzy hud, engine damage, ammo explosion chance, shutdown chance that increase exponentially as you get hotter.

at 50% heat you got a good chance to critically damage or kill yourself, at 75% you are basically signing your own death warrant.

Thats why the TT heat system works, either you bring less weapons and more heat sinks(lots more), fire less weapons, or you die the first time you let off one of those high alphas.

As much as I like the TT heat scale, how long before none-Lore player call it Ghost Penalty?
Fire 2 ERPPC; Ghost Speed Penalty kicks in.
Fire 2 AC20; Ghost Ammo Explosion Penalty kills you.

[Mazzyplz]

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

You mean the 40% Extended range nerf? No, not hit by that.

By the 40% Optimal range nerf? They most certainly were

you know, since i made that comment i actually played several pts matches and i found out medium lasers don't almost reach across caldera in caustic.
i actually prefer them to be closer range weaps
if you take a corner and there is an enemy there you can still 100% defend yourself -
if you have a jenner you can still drive up closer to the enemy like many light mechs do with SL/SPL

the one thing you cannot do anymore is shoot from saddle down to the city in crimson with your boated mediums. i think it's a positive change.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 15 October 2015 - 02:24 AM.

[Pale Jackal]

Down with PGI and their unintuitive mechanics.

You know, I don't hate ghost heat (since it rather neatly helps reduce pinpoint alphas - maybe something better could have been devised, though), but this... PGI, why are you so bad at your job?

Just reduce the maximum range of Clan lasers already.

[Dino Might]

InRev, on 14 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Yet another observation from the PTS:

When a deathball pushes into you, the last thing you want to have to worry about is cycling through the targets until you get the one you actually want to shoot at in order to do full damage, especially when they are moving in front of and behind each other constantly. This is just a pain in the ass. "Is it Alpha? Nope. Bravo? Nope. Charlie? LOCK THE GODDAMN MECH I AM SHOOTING FFS"

This affects short-ranged lasers (IS small and medium beams and pulses, and Clan small beams and pulses) much more than the heavier equipment. Not good.

Imagine being in a 169kph Locust when you are dashing all over the place, taking snap shots as you fly by. Those days are over once this hits. And to those who say "good riddance," I'm glad you finally agree the Locust is OP and needs a nerf.

My biggest problem is that the global laser changes makes ECM even more vital than it was before.

Edited by Dino Might, 15 October 2015 - 02:39 AM.

[sycocys]

The weird thing is - if you all would actually log on and test this you'd find its not even 1/10th as bad as the people raging about it based on the text of the notes want to make you believe it is.

Does it need some adjustment? Yes.

Does it or will it break the game if left as 60% of normal range instead of max? Absolutely not.
It will make things more of a challenge, especially for newer players and I can't believe I'm eating my past words in saying this - PGI can actually add a tutorial course to cover this. They actually have the framework in the live game to make tutorials to introduce and explain the more complex mechanics to people now, so really as long as they keep updating that there is no reason at all to be bching about how things are to complex for new players.

-- Further past that as far as I've been able to discover we can't have cone of convergence because it caused serious issues with the netcode or HSR, so that mean in order to bring things to some semblance of balance PGI is either going to have to come up with some other creative ways to bring things into check or do some massive nerfs to the weapons systems across the board.
Not everything is going to be BT by the book, but they seriously need to be trying things like this out so a better game can be had for everyone - and develop the combat system finally into something with more of the amount of depth pretty much everyone has been begging for for 2+ years now.

[Marmon Rzohr]

SaltBeef, on 15 October 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

I probably could get the 2C refunded I am sure it will be shitsts since all the IS white knights have cried 10000 forums already B4 release maybe refund the marauder pack. I am not the only one who feels the Constant Nerfs and is is getting rediculous and ass backwards. I bet all the Innersphere players would cry buckets if Autocannons were nerfed to clan status. No more PP damage.

Go on the PTS. Try out the nerfed Clans against the non-quirked IS. See how that goes. I pilot Clan mechs exclusively and what I see is not the Clans getting nerfed, it's Clans moving toward being balanced. I mean doesn't it tell you something that even with crazy quirks the best IS mechs barely keep up with the best Clan mechs ?

The idea is to balance the game without the need for hyper quirks, because hyper quirks also make the game less varied and less fun.

Also keep in mind this is only one step in the process. While I understand your skepticism in general, this balancing direction is actually quite clever IMO.

Pale Jackal, on 15 October 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

Down with PGI and their unintuitive mechanics.

You know, I don't hate ghost heat (since it rather neatly helps reduce pinpoint alphas - maybe something better could have been devised, though), but this... PGI, why are you so bad at your job?

Just reduce the maximum range of Clan lasers already.

Information Warfare MUST affect firepower in order to have a significant impact in the game.

Imagine if in WoT spotting didn't reveal enemy tanks just gave you type of tank, it's gun characteristics and highlighted it's weak points. Anyone who is good would already know all of that information the instant they saw the tanks outline and so spotting would be near useless to good players.

That's almost what we have right now in MWO. If we want scouting and information warfare to matter they're going to have to have an impact on core gameplay.

[TWIAFU]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 October 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

B-B-b-but who considered the Black Knight meta in the first place??

B-B-b-but Black Knight was declared DOA weeks before it even went Live...

[Sjorpha]

After having actually played on the PTS for a few hours now I absolutely LOVE the changes. ALL of them.

The range mechanic is quick getting used to, and having a scout helping your laser sniper really matters now. That is great, you SHOULD be relying on scouts to actually do their job in order for the team to win.

ECM change:
Wonderful. It's not a jesus box anymore but it is still very powerful. Even at close range, you only get the dorito and still have to wait 3s of LoS to get target lock/info. And you don't actually get your optimal laser ranges until you have that, so that makes ECM still powerful for both fighting and brawling, but not as OP as before. Carrying BAP is actually useful for all kinds of mechs now. A GREAT change.

Damage feedback change:
I was torn on this but after having tried I have to admit I really really like it. It is much more realistic and immersive that your computer cannot tell the damage without target info, and it further improves the scout role. After actual testing I say the pros of increased immersion and scouting is greater than the con of not being able to compare server side hit reg to visuals (though that IS a big con still, but the solution is to improve hitreg.)

Reticule graphic:
I would put the red flash back on top of the new X marker. I personally like the red flash better but I can see how this new visual is much better for colourblind people. There is no reason not to have both IMO. I still like that it is only on targeted mechs though, keep that.

Ranges:
Needs some tweaking to weird edge cases but in general the new ranges are much more balanced. It's nice to have IS and Clan lasers work a little differently, more faction difference is always a plus in my book, they are way to mechanically similar IMO. I think a more intuitive and principled approach would to simply make/say that IS max range = optimal range X2 and clan max range is optimal range X1.5. It's almost the same but easier to explain and remember.

Heatsinks:
I made some experimental SHS builds and tried out. It is definitely much more viable to run SHS now, that is very good. The best examples of semi-viable SHS builds are assault laser boats like 4LL stalker or 8MPL banshee(37SHS, std320), but those are actually playable in this environment which is great. I still think DHS are clearly better so it's still not a real choice in comp matches, which is a shame but it's definitely a step in the right direction! I like the IS vs Clan DHS being good in different ways as well, I might take that difference a bit further even.

All in all a very good PTS with great ideas and changes. I hope PGI doesn't take any of the people not actually bothering to test it seriously (hint: Those are the ones complaining with big rants before the PTS is even up, just ignore them please.)

If you want to answer this post do it in the feedback forum under my topic, I won't follow this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...-like-it-a-lot/

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 October 2015 - 04:56 AM.