396 replies to this topic

[Adm Awesome]

Buck Rogers, on 08 July 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

To make MWO a good game they're going to have to make it so theres a good spread of mech weights in each match.

The entire point behind the Urbanmech is that if used correctly it packs a ton of punch and armor for its weight.

Now, if weight isn't a consideration, and 99% of battles in MWO will be 100 ton Atlas only fights, then you have a super good point! Another point would be, if that's true, this game is going to suck like a vacuum cleaner down a septic tank.

my bad, I'm only using the Atlas because 1.) you guys seem to love the joke of a urban mech taking down an Atlas, you guys are the ones who say it, I'm just saying you're wrong. 2.) he's the slowest, I can't even begin to comprehend how an urban mech is supposed to attack anything that's moving 3x or more speed then he is. You're saying he's going to kick ***, but I just don't see how.

Vechs, on 08 July 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I like how all the haters always pit the Urbanmech VS an Atlas or some other Assault in their hypothetical scenarios.

In MWO, the Urbanmech would be a for a light mech slot that doesn't want to scout.

You could have a medium be the scout, and the Urbanmech follow a Catapult around to bodyguard for it. Or you could swap the AC/10 for some longer range stuff and play as a light fire support.

Or maybe your team comp or specific strategy doesn't involve scouting as portrayed in the videos, and your team sticks together and moves as one unit. At that point, why not go for more firepower and armor over speed for your light mech slot?

Oh wow, I thought for team coordinated movements, it would've been bad enough waiting for the Atlas, now we have to wait for that trashcan to catch up? So instead of using our light slot as a very important, and useful scout, you're gonna make him a waste of space security guard for your catapult? Really? The guy who's already standing in the back of your team, supporting from the sidelines, and the only one who's most likely go all the way there to harass is fast moving lights and mediums that a urban wouldn't even be able to keep up with? Tactics people, use them!

Edited by Adm Awesome, 08 July 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Vechs]

The Urbanmech fills a unique niche in the Light Mech category. It has more in common with a miniature Assault Mech than a typical Light Mech. And that's a good thing.

That means teams have more room to experiment with team composition, strategy, and mech builds. I don't really understand the hate directed at the Urbanmech.

Nobody is going to put a gun to your head and force you to role out in one.

Why so serious?

Also, if there is ever a multi-mission campaign mode, or any kind of mode where BV or credit cost matter over several missions, I think the Urbanmech will shine, because you get a lot of firepower for a cheap cost.

It also would make a great base defender. Your Heavies and Assaults can go attack, and your Urbanmech can defend your base from being captured by Lights. If all it has to do is stay at base and trade hits with any Light that sneaks up, that's a fight it should win every time.

[Melcyna]

With an urbanmech speed?

how exactly is it supposed to win every time when it has no capability of dictating range?

i mean unless the base is in a ... well what else.. urban area and you made sure you ambushed him and nail him with the first salvo as hard as you can before he scram, which is still iffy..

[Adm Awesome]

Vechs, on 08 July 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

The Urbanmech fills a unique niche in the Light Mech category. It has more in common with a miniature Assault Mech than a typical Light Mech. And that's a good thing.

That means teams have more room to experiment with team composition, strategy, and mech builds. I don't really understand the hate directed at the Urbanmech.

Nobody is going to put a gun to your head and force you to role out in one.

Why so serious?

Also, if there is ever a multi-mission campaign mode, or any kind of mode where BV or credit cost matter over several missions, I think the Urbanmech will shine, because you get a lot of firepower for a cheap cost.

It also would make a great base defender. Your Heavies and Assaults can go attack, and your Urbanmech can defend your base from being captured by Lights. If all it has to do is stay at base and trade hits with any Light that sneaks up, that's a fight it should win every time.

if you go with the AC/20, any light mech can dance around you and force you to waste all your ammo, even if you down the mech, how are you supposed to survive? You'll run out of ammo pretty damn quick if you're using an AC20 as your main weapon. It's just unreliable, and hell you might win a 1v1, a 2v2 hell maybe a 3v3, but there's no way you can last a 12v12 match. The 20 is short ranged as well at only 400 Meters so there's so many guns there already that can out snipe you. Go with the AC/10? You get half the damage but not even double the ammo, so you'll need to use two times the shots to equal the output and you'll still be doing less damage over all. There's no way it could last.

[ZnSeventeen]

Adm Awesome, on 08 July 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

You're saying he's going to kick ***, but I just don't see how.

No you don't. That is your problem. Now if you ever figure it out, tell us. If you don't that is cool too.
And you know what, if you are right, then kill the urbanmechs and stop complaining about them. They will be on your team sometimes, and not in others. Why are you so desperate to make people dislike urbanmechs?
And to respond to your earlier question where you ask why you don't just make it faster, I want you to consider that the lower speed corresponds to a smaller engine, which means the engine is lighter and a lot cheaper. That means you can put more weaponry, more armor, and simultaneously save a lot of money in repairs. It is similar to why people take little geo metros over bugatti's. They are more efficient and a lot cheaper. But in the battletech universe, it also means that you could pack a bigger gun and more armor on the geo, but that is kinda where the simile ends.

Edited by ZnSeventeen, 08 July 2012 - 09:58 PM.

[Buck Rogers]

Adm Awesome, on 08 July 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

my bad, I'm only using the Atlas because 1.) you guys seem to love the joke of a urban mech taking down an Atlas, you guys are the ones who say it, I'm just saying you're wrong. 2.) he's the slowest, I can't even begin to comprehend how an urban mech is supposed to attack anything that's moving 3x or more speed then he is. You're saying he's going to kick ***, but I just don't see how.

Oh wow, I thought for team coordinated movements, it would've been bad enough waiting for the Atlas, now we have to wait for that trashcan to catch up? So instead of using our light slot as a very important, and useful scout, you're gonna make him a waste of space security guard for your catapult? Really? The guy who's already standing in the back of your team, supporting from the sidelines, and the only one who's most likely go all the way there to harass is fast moving lights and mediums that a urban wouldn't even be able to keep up with? Tactics people, use them!

A Cicada can actually makes a better scout than a Commando. Likewise the medium Clint, Hermes II, and assault class Charger are all considered scout/recon mechs.

Now if you already had a 40 ton Cicada, but you had the light 'mech slot still open, or you had drop weight to spare, or however they implement it, is it completely unreasonable to say "Why not throw in a 30 ton mech with 6 tons of armor and an AC-10?".

[Mattrixx]

It all depends how the devs have made the camouflage and hiding thingy-ma-jingies in the game for the mechs wether the Urbie will be truly feasible to use, especially in a truly urban map battle scenario. While we wait for one of those maps to come along and dependant on how the above mentioned hiding / camouflage thingies work, we won't really see if and how well the Urbie really works.

Since there appears to be a manual shut down possibility for your mech it appears you might be able to dummy hide your mech from if not all then at least quite a few of the detection methods in the game wether they are automatic (targeting programs of some kinds) or eyeball-to-the-target type methods.

We'll have to wait and see.

And even so I would still get the Urbie if it is ever releasd into the game. Just for the fun factor of it if nothing more.

[Vechs]

Adm Awesome, on 08 July 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

if you go with the AC/20, any light mech can dance around you and force you to waste all your ammo, even if you down the mech, how are you supposed to survive? You'll run out of ammo pretty damn quick if you're using an AC20 as your main weapon. It's just unreliable, and hell you might win a 1v1, a 2v2 hell maybe a 3v3, but there's no way you can last a 12v12 match. The 20 is short ranged as well at only 400 Meters so there's so many guns there already that can out snipe you. Go with the AC/10? You get half the damage but not even double the ammo, so you'll need to use two times the shots to equal the output and you'll still be doing less damage over all. There's no way it could last.

Well, in your hypothetical scenario, I apparently lack the ability to aim, so I will lose no matter what mech I'm piloting.

Unless the base is on a flat wide-open field, I assume there is some kind of cover around. And from the videos I've seen, there are large rocks, hills, cliffs, and/or buildings scattered around the maps. As long as there is at least one bit of cover for the Urbanmech to use, I can wait there for the enemy mech to come try and capture the base (PGI seems to be using the "stand in the circle and wait" model of base capture) and then just pop out and shoot them.

I was actually curious to see if I could turn an Urbanmech into a MG / Small Pulse boat.

Could you explain to me why you don't want the Urbanmech in the game? I understand why you don't to use one personally for yourself, but that's a big difference than not wanting it in the game at all.

[Buck Rogers]

Adm Awesome, on 08 July 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

if you go with the AC/20, any light mech can dance around you and force you to waste all your ammo, even if you down the mech, how are you supposed to survive? You'll run out of ammo pretty damn quick if you're using an AC20 as your main weapon. It's just unreliable, and hell you might win a 1v1, a 2v2 hell maybe a 3v3, but there's no way you can last a 12v12 match. The 20 is short ranged as well at only 400 Meters so there's so many guns there already that can out snipe you. Go with the AC/10? You get half the damage but not even double the ammo, so you'll need to use two times the shots to equal the output and you'll still be doing less damage over all. There's no way it could last.

Centurion, in game, already has only 10 shots of AC-10... Hunchback, in game, already has only 10 shots of AC-20... Atlas, in game, already has only 10 shots of AC-20... Those mechs obviously have secondary weapons, even if it's just a pair of medium lasers, but the point is a lot of mechs are already handicapped by ammo capacity. When the Hunchback fires off its 10 rounds, it becomes a 50 ton mech, that doesn't have jumpjets, with 2 medium lasers, and a small laser.

And, no... AC-20 does 20 damage, has 5 shots per ton. AC-10 does 10 damage, has 10 shots per ton. AC-5 does 5 damage, has 20 shots per ton. 1 ton of ammo does 100 damage regardless.

We can run around in circles all day here. The Urbanmech has huge limitations, but huge possibilities for its weight class if used correctly.

[Sheen]

Quote

Copied from Battletech Wiki:

Urbanmech:
Speed 32.4 km/h

Atlas:
Speed 54.0 km/h

Jenner:
Speed 118.8 km/h

DFA practice, anyone?

Edited by Sheen, 08 July 2012 - 10:12 PM.

[Buck Rogers]

Sheen, on 08 July 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Copied from Battletech Wiki:

Urbanmech: Speed 32.4 km/h

Atlas: Speed 54.0 km/h

Jenner: Speed 118.8 km/h

Dear Pro-Urbanmech players,

The Jenner is nearly four times faster than you. The Atlas is faster than you. They both have more powerful weapon loadouts than you, and more armor than you. You will also be playing a first person shooter game, not table top turn-based strategy. Why is this even an argument? Just seems silly to me.

Jenner has 4 tons of armor. Urbanmech has 6 tons. Urbanmech can also reach out 180 meters further than the Jenner with the AC-10. How handy.

Keep trying duders.

Furthermore, if MWO has some standard game modes like "base defend" then the Urbanmechs low speed wouldn't even be an issue for that particular game mode, as the Urbanmech would just waddle into position and go Tank Destroyer Mode on the enemy.

[Vechs]

@Sheen

Well you edited your post (I guess you needed to change your facts?) But I'll reply anyway.

I can field two Urbanmechs for the cost of a single Jenner. The Jenner is vulnerable to overheating, has less range, and thinner armor.

A realistic scenario would have an equal cost of troops versus each other. So to be fair it would be two Urbanmech VS one Jenner. Or, six Urbanmech and some infantry or vehicles VS one Atlas.

I like the Urbanmech for the same reason I like the A-10 Warthog and the AK-47. They are no-frills, cheap, efficient, and reliable.

[Adm Awesome]

Buck Rogers, on 08 July 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Centurion, in game, already has only 10 shots of AC-10... Hunchback, in game, already has only 10 shots of AC-20... Atlas, in game, already has only 10 shots of AC-20... Those mechs obviously have secondary weapons, even if it's just a pair of medium lasers, but the point is a lot of mechs are already handicapped by ammo capacity. When the Hunchback fires off its 10 rounds, it becomes a 50 ton mech, that doesn't have jumpjets, with 2 medium lasers, and a small laser.

And, no... AC-20 does 20 damage, has 5 shots per ton. AC-10 does 10 damage, has 10 shots per ton. AC-5 does 5 damage, has 20 shots per ton. 1 ton of ammo does 100 damage regardless.

We can run around in circles all day here. The Urbanmech has huge limitations, but huge possibilities for its weight class if used correctly.

Oh wellk I dunno, I'm going of MW4 stats... since that's the only one I played. I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm more curious than anything, especially since I know nothing about figures and how mechs really work other than in MW4. I'm looking at this from the point of view of fighting a slow, under weapon-ed robot. I just want to know what it has over an Atlas, which has more guns, so it's damage is higher. It has more armor, so more damage absorption, and it even moves faster, maybe the Urban mech has a lot to offer, but to me it seems like more classes can offer all that and more. Play a freakin panther, you can move so much faster and you have a freakin PPC, and still has rockets and a small pulse laser, which is the same tonnage as a medium laser if you'd rather have that. You have a really big gun but this one won't run out of ammo, and you're still use to the team. Hell use a beacon instead of missiles and now you're more use to your catapult than a security guard.

[Vechs]

If you really wanted a fair fight, you would have a stock Jenner, and then to fight it, you would have an Urbanmech with about 1,500,000 C-Bills worth of upgrades done to it.

[ZnSeventeen]

Urbanmech - 1,471,925

Jenner - 3,198,375

Atlas - 9,626,000

Jenner is twice the cost, with useless speed in urban and coverage battles, major heat problems and two tons less ammo.

The Atlas is nine times the cost, with a minor boost in speed, and no jump jets. It is also a much larger target, with weak arm mounted weapons.

So, might we think there are reasons to use an Urbie.

Edit: Tried to make it sound less demeaning. I really am trying not to be offensive.

Second Edit: Adm, MW4 is not the best example, but imagine if you could have used the Urbanmech in campaign. You would have moved slow, but you would have been able to pack more punch, taken more hits, and been able to save up for other mechs later.

Edited by ZnSeventeen, 08 July 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Protection]

MWO is using tech level 2 - and the Urbie has a lot of room to expand at that tech level. It's still viable at tech level one, but at two the options really open up. Endo Steel +1.5 tons, Ferro Fibrous - another +1 (almost), XL engine would even allow for a 3/5 speed (I doubt they will allow a 6/9 Urbie). Suddenly there is room for a Gauss rifle, and you have a makeshift Hollander - a cheap, efficient, light sniper mech that can jump into a good position and remain a hard target from afar with a small profile.

Even with the stock mech, you have a surprising brawler that will thrive in cramped environments. It isn't going to go scouting, but it can defend the base, stick with teammates, and be a buddy for an assault mech - watching the backs and picking off irritating harasser mechs (like Jenners or Cicadas) that try to peg the rear, while the assaults engage the front lines. And with an AC/20 they can clean up rival lights quickly.

[Adm Awesome]

ZnSeventeen, on 08 July 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Urbanmech - 1,471,925

Jenner - 3,198,375

Atlas - 9,626,000

Jenner is twice the cost, with useless speed in urban and coverage battles, major heat problems and two tons less ammo.

The Atlas is nine times the cost, with a minor boost in speed, and no jump jets. It is also a much larger target, with weak arm mounted weapons.

So, might we think there might reasons to use an Urbie? Just maybe?

no, it's a waste of 1.5 mil that you could save up for that Jenner or Atlas

[Vechs]

I know I'm harping on a fair fight here, but again, the Jenner and Panther are 35 tons, the Urbanmech is 30.

So you would need to go find a 30 ton mech to be it's opponent.

The entire appeal of the Urbanmech, is that you get a lot of firepower and armor for a cheap cost and in the frame of a 30 ton mech.

Edit:

For the record, one of my favorite mechs is the Hollander, not the Urbanmech. For a lot of the same reasons as the Urbanmech. It's a cheap way to get a heavy weapon out onto the battlefield. (I still like the Urbanmech though.)

Edited by Vechs, 08 July 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[Adm Awesome]

Considering all of you are founders with at least one mech here, there shouldn't be a reason for you to need to buy an urban for cash reasons, you have a special edition mech, and you have 80 bucks worth of ingame money, you don't need to pinch pennies. Second, that's a horrible argument anyway. I'm sure you'll start with plenty of money to get a Jenner or something, and saying it's good because is cheap is like me settling for a stock office computer instead of a gamer computer. No thank you, I'd rather save up to get something that's useful for me. the desktop is slower than the gaming pc, it has much less power with a smaller PSU, and the parts are going to be much cheaper and flimsier (unless you wasted tons of money on razor products lololol)

Edited by Adm Awesome, 08 July 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[Vechs]

Adm Awesome, on 08 July 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Considering all of you are founders with at least one mech here, there shouldn't be a reason for you to need to buy an urban for cash reasons, you have a special edition mech, and you have 80 bucks worth of ingame money, you don't need to pinch pennies. Second, that's a horrible argument anyway. I'm sure you'll start with plenty of money to get a Jenner or something, and saying it's good because is cheap is like me settling for a stock office computer instead of a gamer computer. No thank you, I'd rather save up to get something that's useful for me. the desktop is slower than the gaming pc, it has much less power with a smaller PSU, and the parts are going to be much cheaper and flimsier (unless you wasted tons of money on razor products lololol)

We're thinking of cheap in two different ways.

Battletech also uses a "Battle Value" number (which roughly follows the C-Bill money cost) to gauge how expensive something is.

The Urbanmech will be "cheap" for your team, assuming they account for BV in matchmaking (and I think they will).

So let's say we have a 5,000 BV match. Having an Urbanmech will use up 454 BV, while a Jenner would take 669 BV from your teams budget. That means if I use an Urbanmech, you could spend more BV for yourself and roll out in an Assault mech instead of a Heavy.

Having cheap BV mechs is important for teams that want to have flexibility in their composition.