69 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Greyhart, on 22 October 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

yes but if you are facing a deathball you are either close in and therefore this is no problem or you further out and therefore you should have time.

the only people the system hurts are people that like to poke from behind cover. they now need someone to spot for them.

oh yes it also hurts people who dont press r

Yes except your explanation falls apart with, for the umpteenth time, small lasers. Small lasers have to get within 120 meters to get full damage without a lock. And furthermore, you WILL need to switch targets in a brawl so the preparation time doesn't really do you any good once things get hairy; enemy mechs will walk in front of each other, and when you do try to relock the poor targeting system will continue to crap itself. Hence, as I have said before, mechanic is not solid enough to be tied to direct fire damage. We need to find another way to control the laser meta.

I'm sorry, I know it's the first time in a long time PGI has done something significant about laser vomit, and a lot of us are feeling triumphant, but this is NOT the way, we need to be patient and wait for better solutions.

[Greyhart]

I agree small lasers should not be affected the same as long range.

I don't think there are currently great problems with small lasers range. Boating might be a problem but not as bad as long range problem. At least they have to get close first

[Heuvadoches]

Laser targeting = exodus.
Laser targeting = nope.
Laser targeting = goodbye MW. It was fun while it wasn't ****ty.

Edited by Heuvadoches, 27 October 2015 - 04:55 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

This is a ridiculous mechanism that just makes things harder for new players.

the meta is either used to targeting by reflex or will just go back to er ppc gauss. meanwhile there will be even more hiding and stomps in games as people realize their lasers won't touch unless they take time to lock, which they don't dare.

[Poggle]

Effectively it could push everyone into hiding and pushing fir the brawl leading into longer manoeuvre to egagekeht times for the more focused teams who will not splurge until all weapons can operate effectively at a firepower sweet spot.

Snipers to gladiators as an average.

[Fire for Effect]

Definitely absurd nonsense (i recommend maybe tone done your filters PGI), especially since its again tinkering at things that are not the actual problem.

Lasers are DOTs so you can perfectly spread the damage. Problem is instead insta Damage weapons and the weird decision by PGI to quadruple the firing rate but not toning down the damage accordingly. Maybe it was not an active decision but simple neglectence to actually calculate what an increase in firing rate would mean for the game.

You know PGI is not a big company it took some time until they could afford an abacus, but right now they are trying to scrape together the money for a calculator (I recommend TI calculators, were really useful up to and inkluding university... hope they are still building these ^^ ).

So guys please do your part of the deal and buy a new mech pack. I grabbed the Marauder :-)

Edited by Fire for Effect, 30 October 2015 - 05:48 AM.

[Kieva]

This change is not the way to fix 'laser vomit'. ECM is too prevalent, and too strong, for this to be even a little okay, the targeting algorithm is too weak for this game.

Hell, I wasn't even aware laser mechs needed nerfing. Any halfway decent pilot can force them to heat themselves.

[Bad Karma 989]

SirNotlag, on 18 October 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

...There is also a real world example of a laser weapon...

Stop.

Stop right there. Everything you wrote BEFORE this and AFTER this is negated. It's wasted electrons, wasted time.

THIS ISN'T THE REAL WORLD. Everything about this is absolutely fictional. Except the MGs. EVERYTHING. FICTIONAL.

There is, in the real world, nothing approaching LRMs/SRMs except MLRS/Rocket Artillery. It takes a considerable amount of time to rearm a Soviet BM-21 and that's one of the most simplistic Rocket Artillery systems there is.

In the real world, a gun that does damage like an AC-20...you're getting six rounds a minute. MAYBE.

Lasers, in the real world, don't do damage ANYTHING like in this game (or the TT). They have to stay on one single point, ONE point, for an extended period of time, in order to damage it. To use your term..."EX", in this game, a IS ER LLas has a duration of...1.25 seconds, the IS PLLas is 0.67. In the real world, in order to get a laser to damage anything, anything armored, anything of substance, you'd have to hold it in place, on the same spot (not next to it, around it, actually on the same point) for a considerable amount of time, far far longer than the lasers in this game.

Also. The energy output of a laser (in the real world) is the same whether you aimed it at something or not. There's already a set of limiting mechanics to lasers, and most other weapons, in the game. Heat, duration, cooldown (or recharge), and range-to-target are all rational limitations. This isn't.

It's flat out stupid. A stupid idea created by smart people. Aieeeeeee!

[Chocowolf Sradac]

With nerfs like this one and others which the Community has said multiple times will run into these problems with them being implemented.

I voted no as I think this will not change the problem but only make it harder for newer players and help keep player retention in this community. Sure it will change how some mechs work but it will do more damage to the gameplay then actually balance the game to make it fun and fair. It's these same nerfs that got us quirks, Ghost heat, Hoverjets, Bad PPCs etc

I believe there are better ways to balance the game and this is not the way. With these rather drastic "fixes" to the game it continually feels less and less of a Mechwarrior/battletech game. The Community have on Numerous occasions myself included have given very good suggestions for the Developers on different ways to more properly balance the game but at this time I'm not liking the direction the game is going and I know I am not alone when I say that.

Edited by Chocowolf, 01 November 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Bad Karma 989, on 31 October 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Lasers, in the real world, don't do damage ANYTHING like in this game (or the TT). They have to stay on one single point, ONE point, for an extended period of time, in order to damage it. To use your term..."EX", in this game, a IS ER LLas has a duration of...1.25 seconds, the IS PLLas is 0.67. In the real world, in order to get a laser to damage anything, anything armored, anything of substance, you'd have to hold it in place, on the same spot (not next to it, around it, actually on the same point) for a considerable amount of time, far far longer than the lasers in this game.

Aaaactually while you're not entirely wrong, the US Navy recently created a Laser defense system capable of shooting down missiles, planes, and smaller boats, and it works quite well. The priciples of using it are the same as in Battletech, keep hitting the same spot until the enemy craft falls apart, don't worry about screw ups it's a low risk weapon, you aren't expending ammo.

If IRL armor was all ablative like it is in Battletech said laser would weaken armor by streaking over it, even if just a little. Since it's not though, it requires a targeting computer to kill things ^ - ^;

Reminds me of a cERLL : p

[MauttyKoray]

Of course most people will say no. A lot of people don't like the ER laser changes either "Oh no, you nerf mah LAZOR QQ!"

Its the reason we don't have convergence, the tryhard competitive people don't want to actually use any skill to play the game. They just want deathballs with pinpoint damage and meta builds. With convergence, the pinpoint alpha problem would actually be a much smaller problem, true pinpoint only actually occuring when a mech is completely still and not having to compensate its aiming calculations.

The concept is interesting but I'm not a fan of the damage drop. More so, an accuracy hit should occur, making it 'slightly' off target or some such. If you're beyond the range and shoot, your laser may fire slightly up and to the right of where the center of your crosshair is. If you aim just inside the CT, it could possibly deviate far enough to hit the side torso instead.

Repeating this: I do not mean you should aim at the torso and hit a leg, or aim leg and hit an arm or something ridiculous, I'm talking about small deviations to where your laser will hit.

[ShinVector]

In lined with Wander's idea...
Wish rather than this messing around with range which hurts Inner Sphere where it is not needed...
They could have applied by adding %X of RNG on convergence for all pin point weapons on non-locked targets..
We already see how well lack of convergence works for LBX and SRMs..

One area where this R thing is going to hurt my play style is... I often use R to 'BOOKMARK' certain targets while I continue to shoot other targets withOUT locks...
The range nerf puts a damper on things...

Edited by ShinVector, 02 November 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

ShinVector, on 01 November 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

One area where this R thing is going to hurt my play style is... I often use R to 'BOOKMARK' certain targets while I continue to shoot other targets with locks...
The range nerf puts a damper on things...

This is a good point, though I hate getting bookmarked XD

[Son of the Flood]

Not convinced this will fix the "issue" and I agree with other posters this unnecessarily complicates things for new players. Voted no.

[Greyhart]

please I don't buy the complicates things for new players argument.

Have you seen the amount of stuff that gamers have to get their heads around today? look at any MMO or elite dangerous an RTS.

j/k Yes FPS players are at the lower end of the spectrum of intelligence but not as low as people that watch soap operas j/k

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I had an instance today when I was staring at an enemy Scat, clicked the target button, and the targeting algorithm locked onto a timber wolf that wasn't even in my field of view. What a rip.

[CainenEX]

Kira Onime, on 17 October 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

To anybody voting on this system, do keep in mind the lack of dorito delay that is currently on the PTS.
If it holds true to what was said, this system will work side-by-side with dorito delay.

ECM is said to delay dorito by 3 seconds. That means it's 3 seconds you have to face before even getting a lock on your target.

Don't vote on this system without that in mind.

What you just explained was one of my fears from the beginning. I'm not a fan of the new laser system. I didn't like it on the second pts and I'm still not liking it now. It needs to go. Lasers are OK but could use some fine tuning in certain stats aspects. I'm not sure why they decided to increase clan medium laser range again (I thought that was one of the more prevalent issues in the game)?

At least some other changes were nice. Hoping flamers get some love.

[Inti Raymi]

Sjorpha, on 18 October 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

What do you mean they don't require it? Ballistics and PPCs currently have near perfect convergence just like all other weapons, if you don't think they need to converge why do you have a problem with convergence being removed?

Or are you confusing "convergence" (which we currently have on all weapons) with "lack of perfect convergence" (which is what we are suggesting)

What we are saying is that there is currently too much convergence, and that it should be reduced.

And to answer your question, why do weapons need less convergence?

Simple answer: weapons (all weapons) are currently too easy to use and should have less convergence to make them harder to hit with, thus making the game more difficult to be good at and increasing time to kill.

Balance between weapons is another issue entirely, if decreased convergence hurts projectile weapons more than lasers (true, it would) then those weapons can be buffed with more velocity, range, damage or whatever is appropriate, or lasers can be nerfed.

I personally think learning to lead ballistics and PPCs without perfect convergence would be very interesting.

If you like increased TTK, just use PPCs. Hitreg is beyond atrocious on them, so if only PPCs were in the game, TTK would be asymptotic.

[SirNotlag]

HOLY COW!
last time I looked at this poll it was split equally between yes and no with some possibly with some changes. Now look at it!
well even in the new PTS 3 I still like it so I'm keeping my vote of "possibly with some changes". I just hope they change it so large lasers use 60% medium use 70% and small use 80% of their optimum when untargeted. That way it doesn't cut so deeply into the little lasers range.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Surprised they kept the targeting-to-optimal-range mechanic at all after all the backlash.

It's still illogical and often penalizes people unfairly for using what should be a straightforward, direct fire weapon.

There are many other ways to balance lasers (proper and normalized ratios for heat/range/damage/duration!) without linking them to a nonsensical mechanic.