385 replies to this topic

[Matthew Ace]

Recently I thought of something that would do something to high heat high pinpoint alpha, although it will only be effective on hardpoints away from cockpit (and the further away it is from the cockpit, the larger the effect would be).

What do you think will happen if we have something like this:

• High heat levels past a certain threshold will cause convergence range to lock at the point past this threshold and would stay locked until the heat has dropped down sufficiently
  
• Even then, heat level will need to stay under threshold for 5 seconds
  
• Implement a circular shaped bar around torso crosshair to indicate cooldown of heat penalty for convergence.

This will however, not be sufficient as a standalone solution and needs to be combined with a few other things, such as revamped heat system and reduced ability (still possible, but harder to do so) for a single mech to place damage in the same pixel with multiple weapons consistently in any instance (as in group firing).

Edited by Matthew Ace, 21 November 2015 - 07:43 AM.

[takkom]

id love some random spread but

putting energy weapons on a "no more than 3 at a time - rest will fire staggered" and a slight beam time increase might be the best to avoid more counter intuitive/ complex mechanics (ghost bla) and in terms of ease of implementation

(actually id also cut ballistic heat in half or implement a more aggressive heat scale like some mentioned above and cut maximum range too but thats just me i guess...)

[Wibbledtodeath]

Just clarifying- Cone of accuracy would suck. make everything fire like clan LB2xs pre fix- that was so annoying. Converg set to infinity on the other hand reduces accuracy a bit but doesn't make it progressively worse over distance.

Frankly, I think more high alpha play would be better (I.E. no ghost heat). There will always be a meta- but ghost#$@# is more of a problem than the thing it fixes. Just need a bit of weapon balancing...

[valrond]

Ronin Starwalker, on 23 October 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

The solution is to penalise stacking of the same type of weapon in addition to heat, now they also converge slower.

Yep. This is not the best solution (convergence should be), but it's the easiest to implement.

Let's say, using lasers, due to their nature, what they do is melt the metal, so a % reduction for each additional weapon would be:

- Easy to implement
- Make sense
- Deal with the high alpha pinpoint laser problem.

If you put, say, a 10% stacking penalty for each additional laser, using more than 2-3 weapons wouldn't be a problem

For example, the 6 large laser stalker. Using 3 LL each you would get a 20% penalty on damage, so, instead of doing 27 dmg, you would do 21.6, which is a nice reduction. 6 Medium lasers would get a 50% penalty, which is a bit harsh, maybe a lower % for smaller weapons, like small and medium lasers. And firing them mixed (say, 2 LL and 4 ML) would add to the total of weapons fired, so 6 laser is 6 lasers, even if they are different size.

I don't know, it's not ideal, but it's certainly better than the laser vomit meta that we have now.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

what should happen is this

>you can tune convergence range for individual weapon groups in the mechbay
>minimum convergence setting is determined by weapon placement width in relation to center of mech.
>maximum convergence is determined by weapons optimal/maximum range
>allow some automatic variation for gameplay reasons but disallow manual change in battle
>weapons mounted on actuating arms have full range of automatic convergence in regards to the actuators they have.
>add "precision tuning" marker on ui so people know when they're dialed in
>introduce soft lock mechanic (no lock on required but when you put crosshair in enemy target box it automatically ranges and "converges" within a certain time frame.

this will make it so people who like to play at range with big alpha will be disadvantaged at close range, and so those who like to play big alpha at close range cannot snipe. Most will gravitate towards medium range setups for an all around specialization, but medium range will not be as converged as close range and while having a farther reach will not be able to snipe like long range. People who have a close and long range setup will be less effective than either in those respective fields in a straight fight. It will also give new value to mechs that can weapon cluster, possibly too much value, but with the combination of actuating arms and space constraints it's more of a wait and see thing than a clearly defined problem. If anything it already plays to community habits.

makes sense? good. You'll never see it.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 24 November 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Electron Junkie]

Each arm / torso weapon needs to be on its own reticule that moves independently with arm sway and bob as well as torso twist and when taking damage.

Missiles need to go back to that one patch where the "On Target" box was hella small. And then base the to hit modifier directly off the distance and ability to aim at the center of that box.

As for damage... bring damage rates in line with the 10second rule. Keep fire rates the same but nerf damage so that an AC10 can only do 10 points of damage over ten seconds ect... ect.. Could probably even bring back down the doubled armor count after that.

[Vanguard319]

To add weight to the anti-pinpoint argument, I would point out that TT added modifiers to your to-hit depending on how far you moved during the movement phase. This is not unlike trying to fire a rifle at a moving target while running at a full sprint: You may be able to do it, but you won't have any accuracy or precision, and will be more likely to miss. If you assume a mech is a walking tank, even in an age of gyro-stabilized guns, modern tanks can't hit a target with 100% accuracy. You could probably do it if the gun is firing GPS-guided munitions, but such technology goes beyond the scope of weapons tech in BT anyway. This is before you factor in damage to your mech, and heat, both of which are supposed to affect a mech's targeting systems. So if you're pushing your heat level dangerously close to shutdown, your weapons should not be able to do perfect PPFLD with every shot fired, even if the target is literally in your face, there should be some breakup of accuracy and precision.

This is why I strongly support a cone-of-fire system that you see in most FPSs, albeit one affected by factors such as your current heat level, and damage to arm actuators, as well as movement and weapon recoil. This is a fair mechanic seeing as how Alpha Strikes are meant to be a desperation move: Sure you fire all your weapons, but there's no guarantee that they will all hit, and the heat build up will leave you inaccurate and potentially vulnerable for a few seconds as a tradeoff.

Hell, It makes more logical sense than ghost heat at any rate.

Edited by Vanguard319, 28 November 2015 - 04:54 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Totally agree high alpha is a problem. Its seems its either heat scale or adding a reactor energy pool is the answer. Although they have come up with some ingenious ideas for other problems I hadnt seen before.

[Ljusdahl]

Ljusdahl, on 08 November 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

To curb large pinpoint alphas, why wouldn't it work to simply decrease laser damage, but decrease cooldown as well to keep DPS the same(or slightly higher to compensate for the alpha nerf)? Alphas are now decreased, without making lasers worse. Lights can still be happy.

Someone tell me why this wouldn't work well. I dare you.

[Tombstoner]

Ljusdahl, on 30 November 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Someone tell me why this wouldn't work well. I dare you.

Because its not at the root of the problem. All your doing is disproportionately nerfing large mechs and buffing small fast mechs.

The 2d6 RNG hit location system had the ct as the 7 on a 2d6. the most frequent roll. or ~17% chance to hit. 12 was a head and 2 was a ct crit if i recall right. When MWO became a skill based game TT hit frequency that all mechs used changed. you can easily place shots on the atlas left right or center torso at will. no so for a small fast mech. I bet ya the atlas ct hit frequency with IS auto cannons is above 70% unless the shooter chooses otherwise. thats will all linked weapons.

This is a severe nerf to mech armor/durability.it gets worse because speed interacts with mech volume something TT mech rules didn't account for and nether did PGI. Simply stated assaults got nerfed and lights got heavily buffed. mediums are simply too slow with little armor to be durable. heavies 70-75 tons range have the optimum speed to armor/fire power spot in the game. its why the TW is so deadly.

What needs to happen is armor lotion co-factors based on the change in hit frequencies from TT to MWO to normalize durability across all mechs. once thats done we can talk about weapon damage values to tune TTK correctly so we don't get paper cut warrior on line where it takes 5 minutes of full point blank head shots to kill something.

[DivineEvil]

Ljusdahl, on 30 November 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Someone tell me why this wouldn't work well. I dare you.

Because there's components that are overseen here. Decreasing damage and cooldown will keep the DPS, but heat will increase as result. Increased heat will eat at capacity harder. Larger heat essentialy equates to lower capacity, but in straight bias, that doesnt affect other weapons, making lasers the more unreliable, the higher the change.

Tweaking both damage and cooldown will be hard, if there's a goal to change them in uniform degree, while avoiding weird numbers. Thus, all in all, it is easier to tweak the foundational heat system, still allowing alphas, but making them extremely risky and debilitating in open combat.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

http://mwomercs.com/...90#entry4817290

that would help

[Throe]

I still think Homeless Bill's solution to this problem is the most elegant that I've seen. It implements a basic targeting computer, and basically implements another resource, in the form of targeting computer processing power. Fire too many big weapons at once, or fire too much, and you progressively lose convergence. Targeting computer processing power recovers quickly, so it achieves the same goals as "ghost heat", with none of the downsides. You can still alpha strike when the situation demands it, without worry about the divergence penalties, since at close ranges, weapon convergence means little.

http://mwomercs.com/...ns/page__st__40

[DivineEvil]

Throe, on 05 February 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

I still think Homeless Bill's solution to this problem is the most elegant that I've seen. It implements a basic targeting computer, and basically implements another resource, in the form of targeting computer processing power. Fire too many big weapons at once, or fire too much, and you progressively lose convergence. Targeting computer processing power recovers quickly, so it achieves the same goals as "ghost heat", with none of the downsides. You can still alpha strike when the situation demands it, without worry about the divergence penalties, since at close ranges, weapon convergence means little.

http://mwomercs.com/...ns/page__st__40

It maybe elegant like a friggin swan on the lake, but it is still redundant. Simply fixing the heat system is an efficient and much, much easier solution.

Edited by DivineEvil, 05 February 2016 - 12:52 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Hmm. How about halving the heat capacity, and adding 50% to heat dissipation? It prevents people from dumping massive alphas without shutting down or exploding due to overheat, while at the same time encouraging lengthy battles because heat still goes away pretty fast.

[DivineEvil]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 05 February 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

Hmm. How about halving the heat capacity, and adding 50% to heat dissipation? It prevents people from dumping massive alphas without shutting down or exploding due to overheat, while at the same time encouraging lengthy battles because heat still goes away pretty fast.

Something along those lines. Either removing base 30-point heat capacity or removing HS capacity bonuses will effectively reduce it in half. Rebuffing heatsink dissipation rates to 0.2 DHS and buffing SHS to 0.14 ratio will increase dissipation roughly by 25-30%. If that would not be enough, then adding 2.0 base dissipation would finish the job. These changes would make Ghost heat unnecessary and prepared for complete removal due to its convoluted nature.

Heat capacity is the fundamental alpha-strike limitation parameter, that must be adjusted together with dissipation - any other methods are redundant.

[Karl Streiger]

When ever a working heat system is mentioned somebody pops out and says : "BUT THE GAUSS" - we need an energy grid.

Well, we don't need an energy grid, because heat = energy. That the Gauss is so freaking bad designed is another story, and without BV the 1heat for the Gauss should be a no go.
Anyhow i want to show you something, this is based on a discussion a while back in the bg.battletech forums. And i was pleased to see how simple they merge with MWO:

First: Energy production:

[list]
Energy Grid = Weight / 5 + SHS (if DHS the internals count as SHS)
 
Energy Production per sec = ReactorRating/100 + extern DHS/2
 
Energy Drain = Movement: "Thrust relative" * CubeRoot(Reactor Rating/Total Speed(kph))
 
JumpJets have to be coded that the jump time is depended on jump jets mounted (say 4 JJs = 4sec)
SQRT(Thrust/MechWeight)
 
non energy weapons = 0.5 * heat
Gauss = 10
energy weapon heat = energy

when the drain over exceed the grid bad things happen,

Example:

• MAD-5D
  
  • 300XL
    
  • 4 JJs
    
  • 12 Internals
    
  • 4 External DHS
    
  • 75tons
    
  • Energy for Jets (Root(75/4) = -4,3 per sec (-17.3 for 4sec))
    
  • GRID: 75/5+12 = 27
    
  • Generation: 300/100 + 4/2 = 5
    
  • movement 100% = -1.6
    
  • movement 50% = -1
    
  • drain TIC 1 (1 ERPPC = 15
    
  • drain TIC 2 (1 ERPPC = 15
    
  • drain TIC 3 (2MPLAS = 8)
    
  • drain TIC 4 (1 LPLAS = 7)
    
  • drain TIC 5 (1SSRM 2 = 1)
• Borat
  
  • 400XL
    
  • 20 Internals
    
  • 0 External
    
  • 100t
    
  • Grid = 100/5+20 = 40
    
  • Generation = 4
    
  • Movement 100% = 1.8
    
  • movement 50% = 1.1
    
  • drain TIC 1 (3 MPLAS = 12)
    
  • drain TIC 2 (3 MPLAS = 12)
    
  • drain TIC 3 (AC 10 = 1.5)
    
  • drain TIC 4 (LRM 10 = 2)

As you see its very easy to turn this system into a real working heat system, or turn the heat system in to an energy drain system

The "better" part - people may understand energy better than heat, for example Gauss = 10 heat - people will complain - but Gauss = 10 energy... well sounds reasonable

And the good: take the Thunderhawk as an example 300 engine 10 SHS.
with a grind of 30 - he can fire 3 Gauss Rifles....when he is standing motionless....firing those 3 gauss on the move -well you over exceed your grid...and bad things happen.

[iLLcapitan]

I don't think high-alphas are a problem. You are able to move, to twist, to lay suppressing fire and eventually even fire back with the same high alpha, pin-point capability. I'm totally against introducing more obscure mechanics to artificially increase TTK. The time I'll be able to misplace myself in front of the enemy assault lance and come out alive - will be the time I leave this game

[DivineEvil]

Karl Streiger, on 08 February 2016 - 02:36 AM, said:

When ever a working heat system is mentioned somebody pops out and says : "BUT THE GAUSS" - we need an energy grid.

Well, we don't need an energy grid, because heat = energy. That the Gauss is so freaking bad designed is another story, and without BV the 1heat for the Gauss should be a no go.

We DO NOT need another gauge! NOBODY is popping out with Gauss arguments anymore, because making Gauss reload a little bit longer than before was just as much as you need to make it situational.

Gauss, just like most other Ballistics, were designed to be less dependent on heat, which is compensated by their weight, size and ammo dependency.

Energy weapons are designed to have low weight, small size and unlimited ammo. Heat is the primary limiting factor for Energy weapons, and as it stands today it is not limiting enough. Period.

[Karl Streiger]

10t of ammunition - well this limit works really well.
No of course we don't need another limiter it was just an example how to translate any given system into something that might work considering Lore units as well as MWo units.

Again if the ammunition limit doesn't hurt (well i really did run out of 5t Ac5 ammo for dual Ac5 in Cw - after fighting of two waves... great limit l.
So of course when you want to stick to tt values you only have the rof to limit stuff.
Ok somebody might say ac2 weight so much in comparison to Large Lasers but the fish smells from the other direction - should the AC2 be compared with Large Lasers or rather with the Gauss.

And Sry the Gauss is the worst piece of equipment that was ever invented in BT second only to the Clan ER MLaser