257 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

PGI shouldn't have listened to IGP. They should have stuck to their original 3025 era plan and avoided a crapload of problems.

[shopsmart]

Poked both accounts for this convo. Didn't see it.

I already halted any spending for the rest of the year. Next year is on hold with to see how the changes will be after PTS server implementations. Furthure departure from what is standard will probably push me away from spending more. Surprised they never implemented a reduced heat scale with lose of side torso for clan or (light engines tech in future). That 10 heat that would normally come from BT 2 critical engine hits would make ALOT of sense.

[ShinVector]

Bespoke Cheese Cake, on 25 October 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

I started a thread on a related Clan OP topic and have yet to see a response. As I pointed out on Twitter "I got 6 kills in a Locust the day, Locust OP PGI plz fix". Clearly this is absurd the Locust is not overpowered, but the point is these people are never happy. If it's not clan XL then its ECM and if it's not that it's LRMs etc, etc.

Now of course someone is going to find this offensive and say "Bespoke how dare you I have legitimate concerns about Clan mechs!" To which I reply "excellent, prove me wrong".

Errrrmmm.... Not all of them but the Locust-1E is certainly overpowered man but that's general problem with quirks and IS vs IS mechs balance..

[Nightshade24]

Triordinant, on 25 October 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

PGI shouldn't have listened to IGP. They should have stuck to their original 3025 era plan and avoided a crapload of problems.

Might be true. But all we would have is a cool trailer and no game.

At least for 3 years I have had some of the most fun with my favourite franchise and to be honest I got more than my monies worth by tenfold. If the game disappears tomorrow I will not cry or be bitter. Because I have fond memories and those can never be removed. I am satisfied with what has happened so far... few problems here and there but overall it has been swell.
PGI has done well with what they have made due with. The fact they even have a stable foundation to stand on their feet after 2012 has amazed me. The guys who tried to make Mechwarrior Prime couldn't handle it, some of the previous MW games had patchy areas here and there due to lawsuits and money issues...

[Commander Harrison]

Cowboy1, on 25 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

What the IS guys are not taking into account, is that Clans can't modify their engines.

Exactly this. How many times has this forum entertained discussion about builds only to come to the conclusion that "if only X chassis could remove some jumpjets". Or " if only we could give it endo steel and it would be perfect".

The fact that you can't do all the above with Clan Mechs is already a form of balance.

I play mediums on both sides, and there are definitely pros and cons to either faction. And when I play Clan I get licked just about as often as when I play IS.

So stop the whining. If you are convinced Clan Mechs are better than for goodness sake play Clan Mechs then. If you are convinced the Dessert Eagle is better the handgun in counterstrike, then why are you playing with the PPK?

Or is in that in the end the PPK player still whoops you nicely and you can't think of any more self improvement excuses so all start shouting "nerf the damn PPK!"

Lore is what also makes this game fun, if you want complete balance (in your one sided view), then go play snake and ladders and beg to go first.

[DAYLEET]

Clan XL need to be as much a death sentence as IS XL. Most of the time you're left to fight clanners who lost a ST and are still able to just kickass on account of noobeasyclan.

[Tarl Cabot]

As for engines, the major differences is what can be packed into a mech, standard engine or XL engine for only half the weight. Don't forget that the current IS quirks fits in the "current" theme.

Never mind there are no actual ENGINE crits in MWO. A Clan XL engine could have its engine critted on the RT, Center and LT gone and it is still firing and moving. Do the same thing to an IS XL engine and it is dead after the complete loss of a side torso.

All the other games had the opportunity to take the base mechanics and add more depth into it, make it more appropriate for real time, 3D combat, but they never did. Primarily cause the developers only had to get the package out the door with a campaign based on the BT timeline, with multiplayer aspect added. Except for major bug fixes the devs were not concerned with balance in a PVP environment, there was no monetary value.

The other major difference is that with MWO, players are also concerned about the economics part of it, how they are paid out and whether they are winning or losing more, which leads to question of balance, question to how to add more depth to gameplay, effects, construction. PGI is also concerned about the bottom line. There is no make one big purchase and they are set, they have to continue to make decisions that changes gameplay, to do something that the previous devs never did, to make it more appropriate for FPS/3D combat.

As for the engines, they would not be identical. IS XL would have harsher penalties and it does take up more slots, leaving less room. As for the Clans, the major thing Omni's have is the ability to customize their hardpoints. I also would not be against allowing the ability to change Ferro to Endo (the slots are already taken) as well as the change in the engine but with a much smaller deviation in both directions. That would not be bad for IS XL engines either, to have a smaller deviation in the size availability.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 25 October 2015 - 06:04 PM.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Yeah
Im in it for just the power. Just like I was in it for just the power to sell 11 IS Mechs to buy the 1 Timber I have and another $55 for the CB ala Carte.
I am Clanner, quiaff? What do I want with a Inner Stravag Mech?
But as this post has little furor its obvious that Majority of Clanners could give a rats ass. Russ said earlier he wants balance and the higher cost of clan mechs is cbill calculated. But Thats canon and the mechs we have are not canon so why is the cost? You can buy both MAR n WHMR packs and still have $15 left from what it cost for my CB. Yeah Im pissed. 6 mechs vs 3 mechs and $15

MischiefSC, on 25 October 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Some people will ask for refunds because they only bought Clan tech because it was op. They wanted to buy an advantage, that's it. The Clan/IS balance at Clan release was horrible, designed for PvE and the original TT developers apologized for it. It was so bad they nuked the game universe (WoB) so they could start over with balanced tech.

We don't need to repeat the worst mistakes of the franchise. I get that people will be bitter about losing a broken advantage. They never wanted fair, they wanted to play with a significant advantage and have a recognized (if bad) excuse for doing so.

The real problem is that they waited 2 years to fix this stupidly broken facet of the game. As they're not refunding mechs bought on the auspices of broken op quirks or the Poptart meta I don't expect them to refund Clan mechs purchased under the auspices of perpetually broken clan/IS balance.

[Waffles 2pt0]

MischiefSC, on 25 October 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

10 v 12 was never viable. Even pgi said so out of the gate.

But why. Why is 10 v 12 not viable? Why cannot 2 dummy mechs be droped with the clans? Make them have the same model as the drilling rigs. Make them have 0 armor. Easily killable. Or have them actually drop from a height guarenteeing their leg destruction on landing.

[Tarl Cabot]

IIII The Smiling Bandit IIII, on 25 October 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

But why. Why is 10 v 12 not viable? Why cannot 2 dummy mechs be droped with the clans? Make them have the same model as the drilling rigs. Make them have 0 armor. Easily killable. Or have them actually drop from a height guaranteeing their leg destruction on landing.

If kept to boardgame it would be more like 7 (Star + 2Points) vs 12 (Company), of course this is only with CW. To do that in solo/group queue the factions, or the mechs would need to be separated, meaning if you drop as a team, you would drop either with Clan mechs or IS mechs. How well would that really go over?

[Maelstrum]

I almost feel the side torso issue is based on the XL name of the engine rather than the actual concept of destroying both torsos. We got an engine that can't be destroyed through STorsos (STD), one that can be destroyed through only one ST (IS-XL), and one that can be destroyed by destroying both ST (C-XL). The three are valid concepts. And given the clan side can't switch to a faster or slower engine to get more flexibility, can't play with upgrades to free slots or free tonnage, and can't remove hard-equipped equipment to free up slots and tonnage, I feel the overall boost in stats is well balanced.

I play both sides, and against both sides and I don't feel any tech makes a mech especially easier/harder to kill: it's all situational. When you understand Clan mechs have side torsos vulnerable and you see one that already lost one, if the second is even slightly damaged, you aim for it immediately and get an easy kill. IS mechs with XL engine are often pilots that want more firepower and sacrifice their survivability for it. Clan mechs don't have that choice, and they have half that vulnerability that STD engines don't.

I enjoy the differences both type of mechs offer simply because you really feel you switch technologies, weaponry, mech customization. My Arctic Cheetah can't go dual PPC but my Raven can. Both techs have their perks. When facing a Dire Wolf, I get the same challenge as with a King Crab or an Atlas. Even if the Dire Wolf has more hard-points, his side torsos get shredded incredibly fast. The Atlas is much more resistant, but punches less harder.

And I like the idea of a damaged engine having its heat and speed affected by the damage. But I fear it will just make damaged mechs even more vulnerable. Quite like being legged is a death sentence, losing even a third of your engine power (especially for assaults and lights) would have disastrous effects in their overall combat effectiveness. And we get damaged pretty quick in this game.

I don't mind balancing the weaponry and equipment, but normalizing the engines would just make the game a little more bland. Uniformity is the worst balance.

Edited by Mlstrum, 25 October 2015 - 06:45 PM.

[Waffles 2pt0]

Tarl Cabot, on 25 October 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

If kept to boardgame it would be more like 7 (Star + 2Points) vs 12 (Company), of course this is only with CW. To do that in solo/group queue the factions, or the mechs would need to be separated, meaning if you drop as a team, you would drop either with Clan mechs or IS mechs. How well would that really go over?

Then make Clan and IS tech the exact same for group as well.

[Skarlock]

Mlstrum, on 25 October 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

I almost feel the side torso issue is based on the XL name of the engine rather than the actual concept of destroying both torsos.

The reason why it works that way is because of the weirdness in how PGI translated the table top rules to this game. Long story short, when 3 critical slots of "engine" are destroyed for any type of engine, the mech is destroyed. So naturally the clan xl which is smaller and only takes up 2 crit slots in the side torso, can withstand having a side torso destroyed. An inner sphere XL engine takes up 3 crit slots in the side torso, thus if that side torso is destroyed, the mech is now destroyed because it has had 3 engine crit slots destroyed. The thing is, there are no engine crits in this game. You can destroy engine heat sinks, but if you blast someone CT and crit them every single shot, you will never actually crit out their CT engine slots, ever. I believe they did this to increase time to kill, as it would be rather short if you could just instantly die after having your CT opened up with just a few lucky crits, but you still have tons of internal structure left. So as it is, this is kind of an awkward side effect of having a smaller XL engine.

People should also keep in mind that PGIs current main concern is to increase time to kill. They want to get rid of or tone down weapon quirks where they can, and make it so that people don't die as fast. I don't think having crippling side effects that will quickly result in a mechs destruction after it loses a side torso such as big movement penalties, or agility penalties will fly. On the one hand, giving IS side torso survivability will give IS a nice chunk of tonnage to work with, and have some very interesting applications to existing builds. This has a nasty side effect though, in that all the super quirked mechs on the IS side that can actually take advantage of their new survivability, increased speed, and extra free tonnage will get much, much stronger, whereas everything else that can't will get much weaker because they will be left behind in terms of speed and firepower. If PGI goes the route of IS xl survivability, they should really look long and hard at the uberquirked IS mechs and make sure they are toned down appropriately.

[Nightshade24]

DAYLEET, on 25 October 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

Clan XL need to be as much a death sentence as IS XL. Most of the time you're left to fight clanners who lost a ST and are still able to just kickass on account of noobeasyclan.

Did you try removing your XL engine from your Stalker yet?

[DAYLEET]

Nightshade24, on 25 October 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Did you try removing your XL engine from your Stalker yet?

2 out of 3 dont have an XL even though the stalker is XL friendly. Whats your point?

[Davers]

Aleksis Kaidonovsky, on 25 October 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

If you are convinced Clan Mechs are better than for goodness sake play Clan Mechs then.

When I am grinding Cbills I do. My performance in Clan mechs is much higher than in my IS mechs- I average about 400 points more damage per match in fact.

[LastKhan]

DAYLEET, on 25 October 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

Clan XL need to be as much a death sentence as IS XL.

How about no, unless we are able to interchange our engines on our omnimechs and introduce clan STD.

Now i get to spout some opinions.

10 v 12 will not work. period. in the current MM system. Either that or it would put alot of strain in finding matches cause of low pop. thus could make the searching a waiting game like CW.


I like the reduction in heat capacity for losing a part of the engine and would make sense. But im not for completely crippling clan mechs that have no choices with hardlocked crap. Another decent way is to make both IS and Clan weapons such as lasers do the same dmg flat out. Just having them weigh less for clans.

Edited by LastKhan, 25 October 2015 - 07:39 PM.

[MischiefSC]

IIII The Smiling Bandit IIII, on 25 October 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

But why. Why is 10 v 12 not viable? Why cannot 2 dummy mechs be droped with the clans? Make them have the same model as the drilling rigs. Make them have 0 armor. Easily killable. Or have them actually drop from a height guarenteeing their leg destruction on landing.

It's already been gone over. Having 1 side be expendable redshirts and the other side being the OP superheros who go down under a pile of bodies is insanely bad idea for balance. So one side is always going to have a KDR of 0.8 being 'great' and the other a 1.5 being 'low'. Most people don't want to be the redshirt scrub who wins by dying more often.

Second, you will never have a suitable population balance. Currently there's enough trouble in CW with getting matches even at 12v12 - saying you need a steady population of 60% IS players and 40% Clan players and still balanced for PSR? Again, not going to happen. Especially since all the good players are likely to move to playing on the Clan side.

It's going to fail for the same reason the original Clan invasion balance was terrible, only exacerbated by being a PvP MOBA where everyone only plays 1 mech instead of a selection of mechs, vehicles and infantry equaling up to a balanced BV and that are expendable and not persistent.

Having XLs normalized Clan to IS and having it result in heat increase and speed lost is a great option.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Mcgral18, on 25 October 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Whether you like it or not, Normalizing engines is the way to go.
Buffing the STD engine appropriately at the same time. Give isXLs larger penalties, but not death.

All this admits and proves is PGI can't balance a brick on a table. If they can't figure out a way to balance the lore, then there's no reason to have Clan as a part of the game. They may as well literally FLUSH the Clan idea, absorb each clan faction into an IS house, call them elite units and either give "Clan tech" to everyone, or FLUSH "Clan tech" and make all mechs use IS tech.

Seriously, normalizing any part of the game you may as well remove Clan. I'm not butthurt either way about it, I'm just saying there is nothing in this game that really needs to stick to lore anymore, and if you remove the point that they were superior, you might as well just erase the idea entirely and jiggle the handle when you're done.

[Omaha]

If they change clan xl then let me run a standard engine for the love of god.