257 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

The Phigment, on 03 November 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

so all I'm saying on the matter is that IF they nerf my Clan mechs to basically be IS mechs in any capacity I will be asking for the difference to be refunded.

Im sure support will bend over backwards for you

[Void Angel]

Be nice to him, math is hard. Even when it's simple math...

And people have done it for you...

And they told you what you were getting when you paid for it...

So if you didn't know, and thought you were going to be getting an overpowered newbie hammer to bully other players who didn't pay to win, that's a moral failure on your part...

... twice.

[Void Angel]

The Phigment, on 03 November 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Not going to get into any crazy flames on the topic, so all I'm saying on the matter is that IF they nerf my Clan mechs to basically be IS mechs in any capacity I will be asking for the difference to be refunded.

I bought Clan mechs that cost more money because functionally they behave in different ways, and YES that includes being marginally better in some capacities (Pre-quirk application).

I didn't buy Clan mechs to have OP-As-****-ROFLSTOMPING-PAY2WIN mechs, so I understanding balancing. But I don't accept being nerfed into the ground to appease people who can't comprehend that practice will improve their skill, and that teamwork is what is OP, not the mech.

Clan 'mechs cost more money because of their higher stock c-bill value, not because they are intended to be overall superior in any way. We all were clearly told that Clan 'mechs were going to be equivalent machines long before they were released. PGI was very up-front on that.They still do work differently from the Inner Sphere, and by design they have advantages and disadvantages compared to the IS tech base. If they are over-performing (particularly in the new balance pass where most quirks look like they're going away,) then they need to be nerfed - that's not being nerfed into the ground, and PGI isn't doing it just because some people "won't practice."

Edited by Void Angel, 03 November 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The Phigment, on 03 November 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Not going to get into any crazy flames on the topic, so all I'm saying on the matter is that IF they nerf my Clan mechs to basically be IS mechs in any capacity I will be asking for the difference to be refunded.

I bought Clan mechs that cost more money because functionally they behave in different ways, and YES that includes being marginally better in some capacities (Pre-quirk application).

I didn't buy Clan mechs to have OP-As-****-ROFLSTOMPING-PAY2WIN mechs, so I understanding balancing. But I don't accept being nerfed into the ground to appease people who can't comprehend that practice will improve their skill, and that teamwork is what is OP, not the mech.

So you want a refund because you bought the mechs because they were op and if they're not op, even though pgi said they would be balanced with is mechs 1 for 1. You feel you deserve a refund because you paid for a certain advantageous level of performance and if it's not there you're upset.

However you then say the issue isn't op mech having and advantage, but teamwork.

So hurrah! What a favor PGI is doing you! You'll have an opportunity to work on teamwork and skills instead of the irrelevant advantage an op mech gives you.

[NocturnalBeast]

Void Angel, on 03 November 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

Clan 'mechs cost more money because of their higher stock c-bill value, not because they are intended to be overall superior in any way. We all were clearly told that Clan 'mechs were going to be equivalent machines long before they were released. PGI was very up-front on that.They still do work differently from the Inner Sphere, and by design they have advantages and disadvantages compared to the IS tech base. If they are over-performing (particularly in the new balance pass where most quirks look like they're going away,) then they need to be nerfed - that's not being nerfed into the ground, and PGI isn't doing it just because some people "won't practice."

Sorry, but their higher stock Cbill cost is due to the superior and more expensive Clan equipment.

[Void Angel]

And do you have any evidence to support this lie?

The final prices of upgraded Inner Sphere 'mechs are equivalent to Clan costs. The only reason that Clan 'Mechs are more expensive is that they come already upgraded. This has been explained many times before - as has PGI's intent to balance the tech bases against each other.

[Void Angel]

This is not new information; this is not a surprise, nor is there any reason you could reasonably claim to be ignorant. This is just a backhanded way of trying to claim that the Clans are "supposed to be" clearly superior in war. The consistency with which you and others keep trotting out this tired argument as if you've somehow just come to a conclusion that hasn't been many times debunked is simply dishonest. You've been around to long and had it explained to you too many times - there's no other way to characterize it. I know you want to live out your childhood fantasies of being a Space Elf heroic Clan Warrior, striding the battlefield like a demigod; I get that it's important to you, and you think it should be that way. But no amount of wanting makes the world go away and be like you wish it would be.

The Clan Battlemechs in MWO are supposed to be balanced one-for-one against the Inner Sphere. Don't bother mentioning any other games; you didn't buy these 'mechs for those games, you bought them for this one. When you're discussing the price (cash or c-bill) of 'mechs in MWO, no amount of tabletop rulebook waving is relevant, so put it down - and stop hitting. Similarly, fanasies about how [insert scheme here] would have made the Clan's hideous canon technological advantage workable in MWO are inapplicable as well. You didn't buy anything in an idealized alternate world that doesn't exist; you bought it in this one.

[Valas]

I play them both, solo queues only, and have fun in both. I have seen guys do amazing in both Clan and IS mechs. I have seen players do thoroughly miserable in both (myself included). I have seen PUG solo teams, work very well together, and stomp the opposing team, the random chaos of a match full of 24 solo players out doing their own thing, and occasionally some good even matches. Most of what I have seen, from my personal own personal and probably limited experience compared to some of you, has been more about the guys behind the mech, than the mech itself.

I cannot speak for CW, as I have no interest in it, in it's current state. It is not what I had hoped for. But given their time, tech, and money constraints, I can understand why. Open world combat on each planet, is just not feasible in the game's current state, and probably never will be. Something similar to faction warfare in Dark Age of Camelot, Planetside 1&2. Guildwars, etc. But, that's a topic for another thread.

[NocturnalBeast]

Void Angel, on 03 November 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

And do you have any evidence to support this lie?

The final prices of upgraded Inner Sphere 'mechs are equivalent to Clan costs. The only reason that Clan 'Mechs are more expensive is that they come already upgraded. This has been explained many times before - as has PGI's intent to balance the tech bases against each other.

It is not a "Lie", I don't even have to find the lore to back this up, just go in the mechlab and compare the Cbill costs of IS vs Clan equipment (which are from the BATTLETECH rulebooks). Anyway, I agree that support would be unlikely to give any kind of compensation to anyone because of this. And finally, I said I won't play, or pay for any more Clan mechs in MWO and when I get free ones, I just strip them down and sell the parts.

[Void Angel]

Pilot skill makes a huge difference, which is why no one's anecdotal experience of MWO balance is authoritative, and you have to look at demographics - and only PGI has that much data.

[NocturnalBeast]

Void Angel, on 03 November 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Pilot skill makes a huge difference, which is why no one's anecdotal experience of MWO balance is authoritative, and you have to look at demographics - and only PGI has that much data.

I have argued since Clans were introduced that it was more pilot skill, than "unbalanced" Clan mechs that was causing people to believe that PGI's implementation of Clan mechs was "OP".

[MischiefSC]

The comp teams and comp cw teams largely play clans because clans are op by comparison. Ask them. Nobody at the comp level has ever said otherwise. The performance imbalances there have always shown up when normalized for player skill.

They are op and are getting a rebalance that's 2 years past due. This isn't new; it's what was promised 2 years ago.

[CoffiNail]

Here has always been my problem with the 'Clans cost more because Inner Sphere has to upgrade everything which costs more' argumement.

Why, in any sane method is something being 'balanced' price wise in real world currency by what a player 'may' do. The only real 'must' is the 2 mil DBL Heat Sink upgrade... Endo, FF and XL are not always tossed in, are not always necessary. It is also not like Clan Mechs are viable from stock. We still have to buy in to expensive extra weapon systems, extra Omnipods, so it is not like we do not get slapped with a couple Million bill at the end as well. You know what we cannot do with Clan Chassis? Customize them beyond switching Omnipods, and the weapon systems. We have all our hard points locked in, we cannot change engine sizes, XL to STD. Do you want a Gauss rifle or 5 round stream AutoCannon? Good choice but I hope you do not want to track targets with your arms because we are removing your actuators in your more advanced machine that costs more.

We have to spend CBills too and get to change less on what is to be a more advanced machine that can handle 5 tons of Elementals to jump on and off our Omnimech, yet our computers cannot handle the changing weights of JJ or Endo, etc?

You want to know why a lot of Clan loyalist get upset. It is not that we get our tech nerfed. Very few of the Clan loyalists wanted Clan tech to be advanced like Lore to have the munchkin meta hammers. It is the fact that many of us feel like the slapped around child, who is abused, teased and neglected. We bought more expensive product and keep receiving worse and worse treatment. We keep getting our lore butchered. We want our units to be broken in to Stars, 10 vs 12. The Clans which cost more to be part of, do not even get our basic unit structure followed through.

Stop saying things like we knew what we were buying... yeah we did. We were supporting a company we were expecting to bring a MechWarrior title to us, a game universe that is placed in the Battletech Universe. It is what I tossed in for the Founders pack, and the two top Phenoix packs even though I found MW and BT when they were mainly unseen and have no connection, I tossed money to them as I thought I was going to get a MechWarrior game.

If they want to balance the Clans and Inner Sphere that is great. Each side was given it's base pros and cons. Why am I still paying more real money for something? If I am only getting 20% increase why am I paying 50% more? IF my tech runs hotter, Ghost heats easier, and weapons either burn longer or fire in a spread, why am I paying more. the pros and cons of the tech are to be balanced within itself? and again, I still have to pay quite a lot of Cbills to 'customize' my mechs.

Some of these are the reasons Clan Loyalists have been and are still upset.

[Void Angel]

Ed Steele, on 03 November 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

It is not a "Lie", I don't even have to find the lore to back this up, just go in the mechlab and compare the Cbill costs of IS vs Clan equipment (which are from the BATTLETECH rulebooks). Anyway, I agree that support would be unlikely to give any kind of compensation to anyone because of this. And finally, I said I won't play, or pay for any more Clan mechs in MWO and when I get free ones, I just strip them down and sell the parts.

... Really?

You have conveniently ignored and/or forgotten an important item: the 'mechs aren't balanced on the level of individual pieces of gear; they're balanced on a 'mech v. 'mech basis. That's why you can't adjust your engine rating, or reallocate so many of your critical slot allocations on a Clan 'mech. It's why PGI allowed Clans to retain their ability to swap around omnipods to attain optimal hardpoint configurations as well - among other things. Again, you have no excuse for ignoring this (or not knowing, whatever the case may be) since it was clearly explained to you prior to the release of any Clan 'mech. And when you compare the costs of 'mechs as 'mechs, which is the only appropriate way given what I've just explained, you find that a competitive, fully-upgraded and equipped Inner Sphere 'mech is nearly always comparably priced to its Clan counterparts. For example: a stock Dire Wolf Prime will be only slightly more than an upgraded Atlas DDC Brawler, and slightly less than an XL Battlemaster Pulse Boat. This is as intended; pointing out that some Inner Sphere weapons are less expensive is a red herring.

The only exceptions to this rule occur when the Inner Sphere build/chassis is both unable to support an XL engine and cannot make up the difference with a larger engine. This is rare when considering top-performing 'mechs, and is an artifact of the differences in the 'Mech for 'Mech balance system. Do note that it is the engine that is the deciding factor here, and that Inner Sphere and Clan XL engines are identical in price. Similarly, it seems to have slipped your mind that Pulse and ER lasers are the order of the day - and that those weapons' cost is identical to their Clan counterparts, as is always the case. Only weapons which do not have Clan analogues are cheaper, and the difference is nearly always trivial compared to engine and structure costs. Strip the IS 'mechs in my earlier example down to their engines, then add DHS to normalize them with the Dire's built-in sinks - you'll find that while guns do make a difference, the greater part of the cost comes from the components, armor, and engine of the 'mech.

What all of this means is that when you consider their costs in the same way that you consider their balance, the prices of most IS 'mechs turn out to be equivalent to their Clan opponents - but with additional drawbacks from taking an XL to satisfy the vital requirement for speed. After all, the primary weakness of both the Atlas and the Dire Wolf are their excruciatingly slow travel and turn speeds. In order to keep up with the Clans, most Inner Sphere 'mechs have to sacrifice either survivability or firepower - and the question at hand in this thread is, "do the drawbacks of Clan weapons and 'mech customization make up for their advantages, including XL engine durability?" It is emphatically not, "should the Clans be more powerful because a rulebook for another game says some of their weapons are more expensive?"

You always circle back to hitting people with the rulebook for an entirely separate game. You don't seem able to help yourself - and it seems impossible by remonstration or tears to restrain you from it.

[Void Angel]

Coffin, all you've succeeded in advocating is that Clan 'mechs should be discounted because of their customization limits. That's another thread, and another topic. Do note that the only reason it's come up is that people are complaining about paying more for mechs that aren't overpowered. We will keep on telling people that use this silly argument that they knew they were getting balanced 'mechs when they put down money, and that it's silly to complain about it two fracking years afterward.

You haven't addressed that issue at all - you've just, like Ed, circled back to obliquely waving around the rulebook for another game.

[NocturnalBeast]

Void Angel, on 03 November 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

You always circle back to hitting people with the rulebook for an entirely separate game. You don't seem able to help yourself - and it seems impossible by remonstration or tears to restrain you from it.

I circle back because the game that we are talking about is Mechwarrior Online "A BATTLETECH GAME"!

[Tarl Cabot]

Ed Steele, on 03 November 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

I circle back because the game that we are talking about is Mechwarrior Online "A BATTLETECH GAME"!

So, you are willing to forgo the ability to AIM and HIT a specific spot on a mech, to have to hold your cross hairs on a mech, wait for the battle computer to give a tone to fire weapons, and have those weapons hit and/or miss?

[NocturnalBeast]

Ok, I am done with this argument for real now, not even going to read the thread anymore. MWO will be what it is going to be and I will play it as an IS pilot until I feel that it is no longer worth playing.

[Void Angel]

Thank you! You weren't really having the argument anyway - that would have required that you deal with opposing arguments in a meaningful way, instead of simply waving a rulebook that doesn't apply to this game.

[Phelan Ward-Kell]

So I start out with stating that I'm looking to avoid a flame war, and the common response I get are inflammatory remarks. *sigh*

Let me be abundantly clear, since my statements were obviously misconstrued for the convenience of the reader.
I stated that I bought Clan mechs that were inherently more expensive because of their features and functions.
I did not state that I bought them to own an OP mech, and as a matter of fact I stated the EXACT opposite of that.

My reason for buying the mech packs was because this is my Clan account, also my main account. I pre-ordered to get the benefits of extra variants, premium time, colour packs, etc.
These benefits were not part of the cost of the pack. The mechs were. These mech packs are very expensive.
The features and functions of these mechs, their equipment, and their weapons are stated to function differently than the IS mechs, equipment, and weapons.
Range, heat, damage, how damage applies, speed, jump jets, sensors, missiles, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

All this being said, I can jump onto my IS account, drop into my IS mechs, and fight on-par with Clan mechs. So the problem isn't the mechs, it's the people.


Now since this is going to turn into an ignorance war real quick, I'm checking out of this thread. Feel free to enjoy your asinine attitude towards others.