124 replies to this topic

[S T I N G S]

This is part of the map and it is used to stop spawn camping on Boreal, if you take this off buff the dropships. The hill is part of the map and I play against clans on it and they use 4 ER Lrg Timbers and just wreck everyone

[DivineEvil]

Near Spawn elevation is VERY far from both gates. It doesn't matter what overquirked mechs are in question - even a range-quirked JM6-A with dual Gauss wont do much of a damage over that distance. I'm not particularly aware of anything standing on concrete or closer and past the Omega, that has enough over-range damage to stop you from taking the Gates out, especially in Clan mechs.

If you did taken out the Gates, then it's your problem to find a way up close and destroy these snipers, and there's several ways to. If you did not, but kept brainlessly trading shots with them on that range, while being scared of any insignificant damage, then it's not the map, that is broken.

It's you.

[1Grimbane]

worst whine thread ever..... i'd take a high position to gain effective fire any day........ it's called being smart, you can always maneuver to them and engage dude

[Karl Marlow]

Dawnstealer, on 28 October 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

That's a really loose definition of cheating. So are Clan mechs cheating when they kill me with laservomit? Just curious.

That's a really loose definition of cheating. So are Clan mechs cheating when they kill me with laservomit? Just curious.

Question 1: no.

Question 2: yes.

[SkippyT72]

While I have not called this cheating, I have asked multiple times why the ridges that are supposed to protect teams from getting spawn camped allow even assault mechs to walk to the tops and just sit and snipe with the overquirked ER Lrg., I'm still not sure why you allow mechs to climb those hills and just sit there, this happens on Boreal and Emerald on a regular basis, I wish PGI would simply make the tops of those ridges out of bounds and it would also stop part of the spawn camping issue from both directions.

Edited by SkippyT72, 28 October 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[Hades Trooper]

Kin3ticX, on 28 October 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Having a hard time understanding what the cheating is......

Is he complaining about someone using coordinated ERLL spam on Boreal and calling it cheating?

Obviously you don't understand what i'm getting at, it's not there weapons it's the fact the area near the gates was made out of bounds as it gave an unfair advantage with it height and the abusing of the map is the same thing, being able to get up there is something that should be made out of bounds, does that make it clear enough for you?

[Hades Trooper]

Helsbane, on 28 October 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

So, the wall in front of the drop zone on Emerald isn't a problem? I've lost count of the number of times when Clans use that hilltop to their advantage, so is it still 'cheating' when they do it? Honestly, I think Hades is just angry he got beat by intelligent use of map features. We wouldn't be having this wonderful debate if his team had used it to defend against a counter attack and wrecked that same group.

sorry to brust your bubble, ANY unit using that tactic is cheating in my eyes, not just IS.

It's simple that area should be not climbable and it should be out of bounds.

they changed the area between the gates and thus they should change this area.

[Hades Trooper]

Dat Moe Foe, on 28 October 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

My self and the 12 man of HHoD recruits would like to thank Hades and his skittles team for graciously standing in front of our lasers. It was a very successful 48-12 training exercise.

Cheating...Ha!

We have a great Davion cheese to go with that whine.

My self and the 12 man of HHoD recruits would like to thank Hades and his skittles team for graciously standing in front of our lasers. It was a very successful 48-12 training exercise.

Cheating...Ha!

We have a great Davion cheese to go with that whine.

Naming and shaming yourself now?

the position on the ridge line regardless of which side is using it an obvious abuse of the map regardless of what side does it. it should be made out of bounds.

2nd it was a 12 man pug group. 12 random people not some 12 man group on coms, no co-ordinating mechs, no abusing the map, the game before we plan straight spanked your butts once i took command after the 1st wave died terrible.

If you think you achieved anything, than HHoD is a bigger joke than i realised.

[Hades Trooper]

Helsbane, on 28 October 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Aaaaaand that's exactly what I thought happened Moe. Little history here folks. Hades was a member of the unit he got stomped by, but was .....how shall I put this...... hmmmm..... we'll just say he was released from membership. That's politic enough, right? So, this little asswhuppin and subsequent forum rant has far more to do with him being extremely embarrassed and still harboring anger toward them than any terrain feature or tactic used.

You obvious talking out your arse. I picked up the command of 12 random in the game before and went from 0-12 to 43-31 once i took charge of 12 random people, not some co ordinated group.

They would have been stomped again if they didn't abuse the map and it's obvious flaw. The area between the gates was made out of bounds as 1 light mech would stand up there and fire down and yet a place where 8 assault mechs can do it even worse isn't an abuse of the map is a poor joke at best.

IDC if it's clan or IS, to use map abuse and call it tactics is just a poor mans excuse for not having a plan.

Now as for my release, i left, i had proof in writing of command lieing, people where playing politics, kneving backstabbing to further themselves in a toxic unit.

Plus after the obvious railroading of myself as i spoke my mind instead of being a yes man, the entire European division the 8th battlion left to form Z6 and they invited me to join them as they could see the obvious dicrimination towards non american in the unit you named.

The fact so many people join and then leave that unit is proof of how toxic and useless the place is. Those of us who have left still joke how it's a training unit and once you learnt o play and how toxic the command system is to move on to compentant units with dignity instead of a boys club behind false claims of a sturcture that is only there to suit the 2 people in charges desires to play arm chair general

[Hades Trooper]

xX PUG Xx, on 28 October 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

The thing is, Hades isn't a new or unskilled player. He has been playing as long as I have and knows how to adapt to different tactical situations. I get the feeling this post has come from the shock that he has come across one of the two IS 'Mechs that can now (barely) outrange Clan Omnis, whereas before he took a break it was unheard of.

I still find it amusing though

Honestly i haven't played CW since the new spawn points had come into play. the fact that ridge line isn't out of bounds just boggles my mind, if the area between the gates is considered an unfair position how exactly isn't that ridge line that 8 assualt mechs can get up there yet 1 light mech at the gates was too much they out of bounds it but they still haven't changed that ridge line.

The fact the ridge line isn't out of bounds shows PGI not caring about CW enough to give it the time it warrants. IDC about quirks, what i care about is units regardless of faction abusing an obvious map flaw and anyone who thinks it's a tactics obviously doesn't have any tactics other than to abuse the map flaw, which personally i have more integrity to do.

[Hades Trooper]

Fire for Effect, on 28 October 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

ok I try to translate:


mimimimimi

I lost to davion

mimimimimimimi

they had more range than me

mimimimimi

I am only allowed to use long range weapons so the enemy cannot touch my armor in my OP pay to win Clan mech...

mimimimimimimi

Nerf something

mimimimimi

Davion sux

abusing the map is just poor sportsmanship, they knew i was leading the pugs at the start of the match thus after being smashed in the match previous needed to use map abuse to get an advantage.

Regardless if it's IS oir Clan, that position is obviously not as intended, PGI needs to make it out of bounds, as surely the new spawn area wasn't meant to proivde them a place to camp like they did for 30 mins.

to also show there lack of ability they even at 36 kills up just stood there camping.

broken map.

If area above the gates where 1 mech could snipe from was considered OP and made out of bounds, how can a position where 8 assault mechs stand and snipe not be. make the area out of bounds is the easiest fix and the fact this hasn't been brought up is a poor indication of the state of CW as it stands.

[Hades Trooper]

1Grimbane, on 28 October 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

worst whine thread ever..... i'd take a high position to gain effective fire any day........ it's called being smart, you can always maneuver to them and engage dude

that area should be out of bounds, as i've said already, if the position above the gates where 1 mech could snipe from was made out of bounds then surely the ridge line should be.

surely when they made the new spawn area to protect the defenders from spawn ****, they didn't intended for them to hill camp.

And with 12 random there was no co ordinated mechs, i didn't even know what map i was playing on till i loaded where is after being smashed with brawling the map before the davion units decided best way to win was to abuse the map position knowing it was a counter attack and they could take over quirked mechs, which the unit to known for doing, there campers by nature and the blue moon map before they got out brawled trying to camp and instead knowing it was boreal changed from jagers to Battlmasters to use map abuse to have a chance.

SkippyT72, on 28 October 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

While I have not called this cheating, I have asked multiple times why the ridges that are supposed to protect teams from getting spawn camped allow even assault mechs to walk to the tops and just sit and snipe with the overquirked ER Lrg., I'm still not sure why you allow mechs to climb those hills and just sit there, this happens on Boreal and Emerald on a regular basis, I wish PGI would simply make the tops of those ridges out of bounds and it would also stop part of the spawn camping issue from both directions.

Exactly, the ridge line isn't meant to be a camping area and the fact PGI hasn't gotten around to making it out of bounds just shows how little care they have for the state of CW these days.

[Anubis Ka]

So have you tried using artillery strikes on the ridge and sending Artic cheetahs in to cause mayhem?

So have you tried using artillery strikes on the ridge and sending Artic cheetahs in to cause mayhem?

[Rattazustra]

The reactions in this thread are interesting, to say the least.



First of all, since the question has been raised multiple times as if it was something really smart, even though it is not: If IS do it, it is bad. If clans do it, it is just as bad. There is no difference. Exploits are exploits, no matter who uses them.



The question is of course whether or not it actually is an exploit. Some think it is, others don't and still others spam childish remarks about tears and other nonsense. This is no question or tears or rage. At least not as far as reasonable people should be concerned.
 If you want tears and impotent rage you may probably want to show the full quality of your character by heroically beating up some children or something.


There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. If it is an exploit, it does not mean that the people who use it are evil, neither in the evil genius department, nor the evil goon league. It is not bad thinking to make use of things like that. Nonetheless, it can still be considered an exploit, in the game sense. A game like this only works if there is a certain level of balance. This is one of the few instances where that balance is broken. This is bad for everyone involved, eventually. Calling it by it's name is a necessity.



But lets look at the actual issue itself. First of all, this is hard to discuss, because most people are simply not qualified to discuss it due to a severe lack of data. Some know how it works and want to protect it, because they crave easy victories, others think they understand it, but only scratch the surface of the issue. Far too many people around here look at the parts of it, instead of looking at the big picture, yet to do that it helps a lot if one has been IN it at some point.



The problem with this scenario is not with the map's features alone.

The problem with this scenario is not with quirked mechs alone.

The problem with this scenario is not with teamwork, or the lack thereof, alone.

The problem with this scenario is not with weak points of the game alone.



The problem is the combination, addition and interaction of all that. It is no wonder that it took a while to become something regular. To make the most of it people need special mechs. They need them fully mastered, tricked out with the right modules and in sufficient numbers. This creates a delay. Then there are those who merely use elements of it, but not the full setup.



When that happens it works like this:

The IS team brings a large number of mechs that have huge range boni on energy weapons (20% and upwards), preferably also laser beam duration quirks and a reasonably large number of energy hardpoints, preferably in high mounting places. These mechs are fitted with ER-Large Lasers. They drop these first and immediately rush up to the wall behind the gun on boreal. From up there they can fire at both gates, but most importantly they can fire at the ramps that the attacker has to climb in order to shoot at the gate generator. Due to the position of the gate generator there is no way to do so without drawing fire and because of the sheer length of the ramp he has to remain exposed for a relatively long time. Now he also has to stand relatively still or he is not able to pump the needed amount of damage into the generator. This, combined with just a few artillery and air strikes is enough to create near complete area denial.



The problem is that there is nothing that the attacker can really do about it, once the match has started. Returning fire is pointless, because it doesn't have enough range. You can't outsnipe the snipers. Even if range wasn't the issue, the beam duration of clan lasers is. There are also no clan mechs with sufficient high mounting hardpoints, which means that the clanner has to expose himself quite a lot before he is even able to start firing, while the IS pilot has already fired multiple volleys. Then there is the space issue. The ramp would not even allow for enough mechs to climb it side-by-side to return fire. Especially not since they are not under fire from 1-2 Ravens, but from up to half a dozen assault mechs and heavies.



I have seen this in action, where three heavy mechs pushed right up and were ripped apart before they could open the gate, even though it was the only thing they tried to do. Before anyone says they should have been there any sooner, they could not have been. They dropped onto the map and walked straight up there. No time was wasted at all. Speed is no counter here. Neither are jump jets, because the whole setup does not require a full team on the wall on part of the IS. They can fit another quarter as midrange so they push ahead and dish out additional fire from further up close and the last quarter is in brawlers and goes right up to the gates. That way not even a small group of mechs with jump jets has much of a chance to break the blockade. And no, the fire on the mechs at the gate was not grazing fire. It was devastating. That is what you get when you combine 20% and upwards range quirks, duration quirks, range modules and ER-LLs and then use lots of these. It would have taken two Direwolves to get the gates open more quickly, but then again they would have taken much longer up that ramp and would have died just as well in the crossfire. The only REAL counter to this setup is to drop a full deployment of assault mechs, fit as brawlers, push through, take the damage, close in and kill the ER-LL mechs close up. But that is only a theoretical counter, since the option is off the table, as soon as the match has begun, which is the soonest time that you know who your opponent is and whether or not he is using this exploit. Too late to change your drop deck in any way, nor adjust loadouts.

When there is a method to even deny the attacking team to open the gates without accepting severe losses, there is something wrong with the situation. No combination of events should allow for that to happen. After all, if you lose 2-3 mechs in the first wave even before exchanging fire and ALL your reinforcements have to go through the exact same gauntlet, there is little chance left whatsoever to actually get a fight. This is far too one-sided, no matter which side it benefits. In fact, it is by far not even the tip of the iceberg, for I personally know of at least two things most IS teams have not yet tried, which would make this affair even worse.

A good fight is a fight were both sides have similar chances, if organization and pilot skill level is similar. Unfortunately this tactical exploit works even if the clan attackers have a better commander and better pilots. The only thing needed to pull this off is unit cohesion, which is a feat by itself, but undeserving of deciding the battle.

Bad sportsmanship that this tactic is aside, I do not blame the IS pilots who use it. It is the job of PGI to make sure the fights are balanced. Boreal is by far the worst map they have and if favours the defender much more than any other map, especially in Invasion mode. Nonetheless, an exploit is an exploit and needs to be fixed. No matter which side it benefits. I wouldn't want to lose like that and I don't much enjoy winning like that either. Cheap tactics and exploits make for cheap and joyless games. For some it may be enough satisfaction just to win, but for me that is too easy and simply not enough. I believe both victor and loser can have a good time in any well balanced combat game.

[SkippyT72]

I agree with the previous poster, it's not the pilots fault that stand there and do this, they are working on their score and usually hurt their "team" more than they help them even though they end up with a high damage score. PGI, when they added this little defensive barrier to help stop spawn camping just like they increased the dropship damage should have simply made the tops of the hill out of bounds to keep mechs from either side using this to exploit why the barrier/hill was put into place on this and other maps to begin with, it was not for a fighting position, it was to keep mechs from hitting new mechs dropping into spawn from long range.

[BlackHeroe]

Rattazustra, on 29 October 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

First of all, since the question has been raised multiple times as if it was something really smart, even though it is not: If IS do it, it is bad. If clans do it, it is just as bad. There is no difference. Exploits are exploits, no matter who uses them.


The problem with this scenario is not with the map's features alone.

The problem with this scenario is not with quirked mechs alone.

The problem with this scenario is not with teamwork, or the lack thereof, alone.

The problem with this scenario is not with weak points of the game alone.


Until this point i can only underline what you have said!

Rattazustra, on 29 October 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

A good fight is a fight were both sides have similar chances, if organization and pilot skill level is similar. Unfortunately this tactical exploit works even if the clan attackers have a better commander and better pilots.

What you think is it for equal IS troops ?
Yes exactly the same - maybe much worse, cause it doesnt need to be pretty good organised on clan side, theyll yust take what they have on long range

Yust to conclude, the longe range has the biggest advantage here, and its mostly on defense, cause no one can really take the advantage on range in this setup, if he is on attack. (maybe the clanners, if IS is defending not with the "right" mechs for it)

[The Blood God]

Hydrocarbon, on 28 October 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

In fact there's a gentleman's agreement on one of the MWO Tourney series, NBT, where clanners generally have agree'd NOT to use streaks. The difference is that ERLL can't be defeated with ECM or poking - as stated, IS-ERLL is more deadly than any possible countermeasure. THAT is the problem, no *effective* way to counter it.

apart from rushing up the trenches and farming them from between the exits to the drop zone where you can quite safely take the 3 gens and omega forcing the little campers out of the drop zone too brawl with you in their sniping builds yes this did fail a bit once when playing with pugs but its worked against 8-12 man teams that try'd it against us

[Antares102]

For christ sake use:
1.LRM to open the gate on Boreal
2.Special spot on saddle close to ALPHA to open the gate
3.B3 spot with ERPPC to open ALPHA
Then push over D6, turn hard right in E7 into the small canyon, exit at F6 and push the hell out of the campers.

All this bitching and whining from people that everything they cannot overcome being cheating.
Next thing that is cheating is a double 12x Arctic Cheater Rush just because I said so.

Edited by Antares102, 31 October 2015 - 01:39 AM.

[The Lost Boy]

Those darn Germans at Normandie were cheating in their bunkers and hardened positions. My great-grandfather had to duck bullets nonstop for the better part of a day till the rangers scaled the cliffs to flush em out. OP, you were outplayed by a substandard tactic. Deal with it.

[Tuis Ryche]

Hydrocarbon, on 28 October 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'm guessing you A.) never played clan, B.) enjoy spamming IS-ERLL, C.) lie to yourself daily that over-quirked IS mechs are still inferior. Do you realize the mechs mentioned have insane laser quirks, both range & duration? That gauss at that range can be easily avoided?

A. I have.

B. I do.

C. I don't.

I've played the long range game with both clan and IS, ERLL and gauss. Sometimes I win the exchanges, sometimes I don't. But to come on here and whine about people using easily and legally accessible terrain to their advantage is just asinine. Yes, I've used that hill and yes, I've burned people off of that same hill.

Sometimes you lose. Suck it up, buttercup.