122 replies to this topic

[Orisos]

TheOtherDino, on 28 October 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

This has me laughing hysterically. Some might not like Russ' answers, but he's pretty right on when he says that playerbase is demanding something, is being offered a solution, and then rejecting it out of hand and saying they will do whatever they can to have the exact opposite of what they said they wanted.

You know what has me laughing hysterically? When PGI goes out of there way to implement a complicated and balance-shattering game mechanic in order to balance the game. The playerbase has produced dozens of significantly better suggestions for them to choose from, and yet PGI decides the best way to handle balance is to do something that 80% of the player population think will do more harm than good.

This has happened many times.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Btw anybody applauding the restrictions to unit sizes needs to crawl back in their flea ridden tier 5 cubby. I know it probably hurts your ego to get smashed by big name units, but jealously trying to get back at the players who put effort into winning cause your playstle isn't reaping the results you want is beyond petty.

[Rampancy]

Orisos, on 28 October 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

You know what has me laughing hysterically? When PGI goes out of there way to implement a complicated and balance-shattering game mechanic in order to balance the game. The playerbase has produced dozens of significantly better suggestions for them to choose from, and yet PGI decides the best way to handle balance is to do something that 80% of the player population think will do more harm than good.

This has happened many times.

Such as?

Seriously, this playerbase LOVES to think that it has the ultimate solution for things. NO CONVERGENCE!1!! Ignoring that some mechs have naturally converging hardpoints, and will become the new best chassis. REAL HEAT SCALE!1!!! Ignoring that this does nothing to curb ballistic-based mechs, which will continue alphaing with impunity while energy-based mechs are forced to chain-fire.

This community is entitled, whiny, and full of terrible ideas that it thinks are magic bullets to solve every one of MWO's problems, ignoring all of the other problems they might introduce. But by all means, let's go back to tabletop, where medium lasers, PPCs, and AC20s dominated above all else. Clearly better than what we have now, right?

[MechaBattler]

Maybe if there was some kind of way to provide an easy way for units to fight directly and incentivize them to do so. Like mission contracts that require 12 players to be in the group. With their own objective based mode. And rewards for completing the contract. Although I imagine people would start to game it. It'd be easy to just swap wins.

Or we could just keep shoving them all into the same set of planets.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Adamski, on 28 October 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

The solution Russ is offering is attempting to address a symptom of the root problem instead of the cause.

CW is spread across 40+ odd planetary queues, and there is no incentive to spread out, instead, there is currently an incentive to form mega units and huge alliances, to increase the pool of skilled players to draw from, and to decrease the amount of time it takes to find a match.

Limiting Unit size, does nothing to address the problem, and instead actively pisses people off who are in these large units / alliances out of a sense of friendship and solidarity.

I don't have a personal stake in the matter, other than my unit has 400+ members, but its purely a social construct as its rare more than 5 of us are online simultaneously.

I agree.

For CW, this is what needs to be reevaluated first.

The large number of queues all across the Galaxy map could be nice for skirmishes and Special OPs missions, where it can be a PvE type environment, with changing objectives and so on. And where it would not be necessary to have 24 players on two teams to simply get a drop.

Where actually taking planets and moving the borders should have way fewer ways to occur and possibly be done as special events, so that something like the Clan Invasion can actually play out over months of fighting across worlds (our real-time) and have it be more of a campaign feel. Not how we currently see the ability for Factions to march across the Galaxy map being able to ignore in-universe logistics and so on between Cease-Fire periods, with worlds potentially able to swap back and forth within a day.

So, I like the idea of having Tukayyid styled events to reduce the number of queues for this facet of Warfare, where say each week there would be a Planetary Invasion available for Factions to move their borders. One it slows rapid expansion with players able to participate from any part of the world and contribute to the Faction's Campaign into enemy territory, two it can significantly reduce the number of queues from whatever it is now to one for each pair of warring Factions.

With the use of incentives, as the ComStar Intercepts represent, the devs are building up their tool box for making adjustments on the fly and eventually have more ways to improving MWO and CW. And there could be possibilities of having Stock only modes as direct parts of these events, or another manner to earn a C-Bill boost for such matches and so on.

So the current frame work of being able to see all of the worlds listed can stay around, but should be saved so it can be re-purposed for future PvE work and look to have tie-ns with Merc Contracts, future game modes and so on.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 28 October 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[Mcgral18]

RampancyTW, on 28 October 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

Such as?

Seriously, this playerbase LOVES to think that it has the ultimate solution for things. NO CONVERGENCE!1!! Ignoring that some mechs have naturally converging hardpoints, and will become the new best chassis. REAL HEAT SCALE!1!!! Ignoring that this does nothing to curb ballistic-based mechs, which will continue alphaing with impunity while energy-based mechs are forced to chain-fire.

This community is entitled, whiny, and full of terrible ideas that it thinks are magic bullets to solve every one of MWO's problems, ignoring all of the other problems they might introduce. But by all means, let's go back to tabletop, where medium lasers, PPCs, and AC20s dominated above all else. Clearly better than what we have now, right?

How about editing .XML variables?

JJs, Weapons, Jesus Box, MASC, Engines, Heatsinks

All have variables, which, theoretically, can be adjusted without much effort. Compile time during a patch session?


Not that Russ is responsible that, Paul was once in charge which was rather rubbish(2 second burn time laser and AC2+MG nerf rubbish), but not sure who's doing it now.

Apparently there were SRM changes on the next PTS session, so I look forward to seeing those. I hope they'll be good (like, for example, adjusting the 'damage', 'speed' and 'spread' Weapons.XML variables concerning SRMs) and not more rubbish like ghost heat linking all the lasers, so you're literally forced to take multiple weapon systems.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 October 2015 - 10:47 PM.

[Kjudoon]

I liked how the comp teams and the 'hardcore' large groups got called out for avoiding one another by forming alliances and ganging up to go seal clubbing.

It's true that unit caps will only result in false divisions and they'll run together, but it will be interesting to see if they will actually step up and accept their own responsibility and hand in creating this problem. Many don't want a real challenge. Otherwise, you'd see the big units with lots of planets calling each other out for matches in CW. It's about as hard as sync dropping 12mans on conquest back in the day. Don't hear much about that out there.

From Heimdelight's transcript which seems justifiably accurate in the frustration that Russ is having with those who claim to want "challenges":

Quote

Q: What about unit member cap?
A: I love it, don't know for sure if it'll make it into phase 3 but fairly easy one to implement. I'd enjoy an even smaller limit.
Q: Sounds like a good idea, but everyone is saying in chat theyll form two different units have an alliance doing the exact same thing. Doesn't actually solve the issue.
A: Would they really form an alliance?
Q: They have right now
A: They'll get mad over MC/leaderboard glory?
Q: Yes, yes, yes.
A: Really?
Q: MercStar is multiple units that work together but an alliance.
A: You just spent 30 mins asking me questions about how ill make it meaningful and competitive for you, so that its not you stomping pugs, and I expressed some ideas how it would help that and your answer back was that youd just join the same faction and be an in alliance and not fight each other anyhow. You said you want to fight, you want competition, but now you want to play together and stomp pugs together? If thats fun for you, then limit size of units and let it be huge and not have competitive matches.

Let's just quit lying to ourselves and admit the truth.

Most don't really want real PvP, most want PvE co-op.

[Idealsuspect]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 October 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Half of the people want more in-game freedom, the other half are asking for more restrictions. Most have such a narrow perspective of only what they want, they miss how much it clashes with the other.

The only thing both can agree on is that PGI can do no right.

I felt bad for him.

Problem is this game NEED more freedom with lots of restrictions PGI impose, coze thoses restrictions are stupid or bad implemented ( like contract cooldown for example you can't end a contract when you need to end it.... you have decide and predict it 3 days in advance... something more logical would be to disallow to press "end contract" before 3 days after you choose a new contract )

In same time this game NEED more restrictions for freedom PGI gave us, or simply they don't care at all about somethings obviously create bad balance ( like the fact that a unit with 400 members can take exactly same contracts than a 2 mans unit... but the impact on CW map and also whole CW from thoses 2 units are the exactly the same? or it need balance ?also some restrictions/rules ).


Also you are right with your point that half people want more freedom ( or less stupids rules ) and others half want more rules ( or more smarts rules ).

Edited by Idealsuspect, 29 October 2015 - 12:20 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Why don't we just stick with FACTIONS?

Factions should fight against Factions, and should get rewarded for planetary conquest faction-wide.

"Units" should be just organizations of players that use teamspeak together.. nothing more. Anything that a unit does should be attributed to the faction that sponsors the unit.

Factions should in turn provide "per player" bonuses to individual players of units, which would mean there is no such thing as unit coffers, only faction coffers.

The only thing that a Unit should be able to do is put their tag on planets they conquer, and only for the sake of "Bragging rights"..

Also, a Mercenary Faction and Bandit/Pirate faction should be added..

[Voras]

Hm... some unsorted thoughts I got, when skimming through the discussion here:

1) Why is everyone in the big units crying for "more meaningful CW provided by ingame mechanics" (that are probably not realizable with the small population MWO has atm)? Man up a bit, organize yourselves via communication and plan wars against each other. So, factions can schedule battles, where everyone shows up at roughly the same time, so action and close calls are guaranteed.
Why is only PGI responsible for COMMUNITY warfare? We are the community, so do something as a community without the help of the ingame mechanics.

2) Game development ist more complicated than most here seem to think. The loudest core players might quite often have demands, that will only benefit themselves and not the whole game with it's much bigger amount of casuals and randoms... you need also to think as a buisness, if you, the community, want to improve the game as a whole. What is good for large units and very skilled players is not neccessarily good for the game and the casuals.
I recommend watching all the episodes of Extra Credits: https://www.youtube....er/ExtraCreditz
Makes you think about games in a different way, if you are willing to learn a bit.

3) Basically, remember we are a small MWO community here. We cannot pull off game mechanics that other large MMO can pull off, which do have millions of players with several tens of thousands of players online at any given time.
In principle, 10 available factions is totally nuts with so few players... the harsh mode would be, melt it down to IS vs. Clans in the CW... than you get a much more meaningful population...

Just try and think about it a bit more from the outside... biased opinions will not help much...

[Weeny Machine]

PalmaRoma, on 28 October 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Btw anybody applauding the restrictions to unit sizes needs to crawl back in their flea ridden tier 5 cubby. I know it probably hurts your ego to get smashed by big name units, but jealously trying to get back at the players who put effort into winning cause your playstle isn't reaping the results you want is beyond petty.

Take that from someone who stays away from CW (I hate the brainless hose-like maps): Your (literal) hatred is misplaced for several reasons
1. large units are the niche in a niche game...what do you expect? Most of the online gaming is heading in the rather casual direction anyway

2. That you go that nuts because of it may indicate a really unhealthy attitude towards gaming...just saying

[N0MAD]

Well, you all really thinking its large group problems?, just how many large groups you think are out there?.
Imo there is a cronic shortage of population not an abundance of large groups, if brought in most large groups are just going to remove in actives, nothing will change.
If and when he goes to 4 man groups then there will be an exodus of a % of group players maybe even a large % further increasing the group problem.
Oh yes of course Steam is going to fix all problems right? population is just going to boom right?, problem is this games been free to play always, there is no big group of people out there waiting to play, they have had that opportunity for 3 years now, and with the way this is set up where new players are thrown to the sharks, the level of grind just for a couple of mechs and the pricing.. well imo dont hold your breath for the great rejuvenation.
Theres half dozen or more games coming out late this year early next year, keep buying those mechs...everything will be great,, Soon..

[ColourfulConfetti]

Bush Hopper, on 29 October 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

Take that from someone who stays away from CW (I hate the brainless hose-like maps): Your (literal) hatred is misplaced for several reasons
1. large units are the niche in a niche game...what do you expect? Most of the online gaming is heading in the rather casual direction anyway

2. That you go that nuts because of it may indicate a really unhealthy attitude towards gaming...just saying

Me going nuts as you say would involve alot of personal attacks against people. What I posses is a strong stance, against an utterly stupid idea. The people who support it have no reason for doing so other than, Nerf large units, large units OP. It's the same entitled mentality seen in the light mechs op whine thread ********.That is literally how it comes across, unless I am missing something.

[Kjudoon]

PalmaRoma, on 29 October 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

Me going nuts as you say would involve alot of personal attacks against people. What I posses is a strong stance, against an utterly stupid idea. The people who support it have no reason for doing so other than, Nerf large units, large units OP. It's the same entitled mentality seen in the light mechs op whine thread ********.That is literally how it comes across, unless I am missing something.

Wow. The arrogance and entitlement projection... Why go personal when you can blanket statement everyone under Tier 3?

And you wonder why people have little/no respect for Tier 1 players and so many want to lock them out of lower tiers. You have no respect for them. Part of getting respect is giving it. I really hope you're just a teen and you'll grow out of this for your sake.

Your Tier implies you're probably good at this game, but I wonder if you realize you've just become the playground bully mad that nobody wants to play with you and you're losing your ability to force them?

Allow me to point something out for you as you glower down from the top of Mount Tryhard. Many if not most of us in Tier 4 and 5 do not wish to join you. Some like me actively work to make sure we never do because your style of play is just not worth it. Every time you manage to sneak a drop with us and club some seals, it only drives us farther out of reach by driving down our PSR, pushing us deeper into Tier 4 and 5 where you cannot touch us without alts.

Not only that, but when the Steam release happens, none of those players are fair game for you for a while thanks to the Tier 1 lockout in solo queue though some will be fed into your maw in the group queue and those foolish enough to try CW right away. But after you get your fun punching them around, they will keep getting locked away from you till they learn, "you only play "so" good and "so" hard, and they never have to deal with you again" if they continue to play the game

...but most will just quit.

Now tell me. Why should PGI develop/tune/balance anything for your mindset when it is inherently nihilistic? How deep are your pockets because the majority will close theirs and walk away.

Therefore congratulations on your accomplishments here on the bodies of other people's enjoyment and recreation. You're compatriots will be left alone; Heroes of a non-existant war. The self-declared dictators of an imaginary countries that nobody will care exist. I could not imagine a worse version of gamer hell to exist till the servers fold.

[oldradagast]

PalmaRoma, on 28 October 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Btw anybody applauding the restrictions to unit sizes needs to crawl back in their flea ridden tier 5 cubby. I know it probably hurts your ego to get smashed by big name units, but jealously trying to get back at the players who put effort into winning cause your playstle isn't reaping the results you want is beyond petty.

Whaaaaa!!! My favorite game mode might change so other people can have fun - whaaaa!!!! Oh, grow up.

So, what's your answer? Let me guess - "join a unit and git gud or git rekt, noob!"

Guess what? People did join units. Then, after the idiocy of CW made it clear that sheer organized numbers matter more than anything else, the smaller units disbanded or quit CW, leaving nobody but the larger units. People like to win - what a shock - so all that remains are the huge units that could sweep up star systems by sheer force of numbers.

It sounds like you're just bitter that this stagnant stupidity will be terminated by PGI and you'd rather have more "noobs" to stomp in small, helpless units or PUG's. I have no sympathy for any of the spoiled seal-clubbers. The try-hard clowns wanted a fun-free, no holds-barred hellhole of a game mode, where numbers and meta drove everything and everyone else was just a target for their egos. They got it - and it is dead. Good job - nobody is impressed. Now, the adults will hopefully have a say and produce a form of CW worth playing.

Edited by oldradagast, 29 October 2015 - 03:23 AM.

[TWIAFU]

PalmaRoma, on 28 October 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Btw anybody applauding the restrictions to unit sizes needs to crawl back in their flea ridden tier 5 cubby. I know it probably hurts your ego to get smashed by big name units, but jealously trying to get back at the players who put effort into winning cause your playstle isn't reaping the results you want is beyond petty.

No, you just have to realize those that want Unit caps are not in Units themselves.

They are the same ones perpetuating the 12man premade lie.

[TWIAFU]

oldradagast, on 29 October 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

Whaaaaa!!! My favorite game mode might change so other people can have fun - whaaaa!!!! Oh, grow up.

So, what's your answer? Let me guess - "join a unit and git gud or git rekt, noob!"

Guess what? People did join units. Then, after the idiocy of CW made it clear that sheer organized numbers matter more than anything else, the smaller units disbanded or quit CW, leaving nobody but the larger units. People like to win - what a shock - so all that remains are the huge units that could sweep up star systems by sheer force of numbers.

It sounds like you're just bitter that this stagnant stupidity will be terminated by PGI and you'd rather have more "noobs" to stomp in small, helpless units or PUG's. I have no sympathy for any of the spoiled seal-clubbers. The try-hard clowns wanted a fun-free, no holds-barred hellhole of a game mode, where numbers and meta drove everything and everyone else was just a target for their egos. They got it - and it is dead. Good job - nobody is impressed. Now, the adults will hopefully have a say and produce a form of CW worth playing.

How about we get rid of the ability to make dummy accounts and drop against them? Like how MS/SWOL did?

How they gave every Unit a bad name...

That revelation was far more damaging to CW then anything else.

Why focus on that when it is easier to blame 1% of all groups for all the ills of CW.

What Unit are you in and how many members does it have?

[ColourfulConfetti]

Kjudoon, on 29 October 2015 - 02:55 AM, said:

Wow. The arrogance and entitlement projection... Why go personal when you can blanket statement everyone under Tier 3?

And you wonder why people have little/no respect for Tier 1 players and so many want to lock them out of lower tiers. You have no respect for them. Part of getting respect is giving it. I really hope you're just a teen and you'll grow out of this for your sake.

Your Tier implies you're probably good at this game, but I wonder if you realize you've just become the playground bully mad that nobody wants to play with you and you're losing your ability to force them?

Allow me to point something out for you as you glower down from the top of Mount Tryhard. Many if not most of us in Tier 4 and 5 do not wish to join you. Some like me actively work to make sure we never do because your style of play is just not worth it. Every time you manage to sneak a drop with us and club some seals, it only drives us farther out of reach by driving down our PSR, pushing us deeper into Tier 4 and 5 where you cannot touch us without alts.

Not only that, but when the Steam release happens, none of those players are fair game for you for a while thanks to the Tier 1 lockout in solo queue though some will be fed into your maw in the group queue and those foolish enough to try CW right away. But after you get your fun punching them around, they will keep getting locked away from you till they learn, "you only play "so" good and "so" hard, and they never have to deal with you again" if they continue to play the game

...but most will just quit.

Now tell me. Why should PGI develop/tune/balance anything for your mindset when it is inherently nihilistic? How deep are your pockets because the majority will close theirs and walk away.

Therefore congratulations on your accomplishments here on the bodies of other people's enjoyment and recreation. You're compatriots will be left alone; Heroes of a non-existant war. The self-declared dictators of an imaginary countries that nobody will care exist. I could not imagine a worse version of gamer hell to exist till the servers fold.

Explain to me then, what purpose does enforcing a unit size cap serve, other than to punish players that are a part of a large and successful unit? What reason would people have to WANT this, than to punish the so called "seal clubbers". Seal clubbing is an issue because of the way CW matchmakign is implemented, that is to say there is none, and there isn't enough players to enforce a matchmaker. You think punishing people in units is going to solve the seal clubbing ********? Cause it's not. Yeah, seal clubbing is a thing, and no punishing established units is not the answer.

I've seen the forumites demand stupid things, and I've seen them rewarded for their petulance. It's amusing how you enjoy trying to paint tier 1's as desperate for seal clubbing, from personal experience I'll tell you, it's boring as all hell. I want to be challenged, I have no interest in fighting helpless opponents. I don't have anything against tier 4 and 5s, but I do have something against entitled forumites. Seeing everybody clamor to try and break a unit apart because they perceive them as the cause of terrible games is admittedly a bit irritating. Its those same type of guys who want a net nerf to every light in the game, because **** you the game revolves around me and should be tailored to fit my playstyle and preferences. If not lights, its weapons systems, and how X playstyle is killing the game.

Making me out to be some sort of ungodly hate machine over me feeling irritation over the rampant entitlement displayed here has got to be the most asinine aspect of your reply. I'm not some boogeyman who has it out for tier 4s and 5s, though admittedly my reply was a bit overly aggressive, that I'll apologize for, but I'm not changing my stance.

[Weeny Machine]

Vellron2005, on 29 October 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

Why don't we just stick with FACTIONS?

Factions should fight against Factions, and should get rewarded for planetary conquest faction-wide.

"Units" should be just organizations of players that use teamspeak together.. nothing more. Anything that a unit does should be attributed to the faction that sponsors the unit.

Factions should in turn provide "per player" bonuses to individual players of units, which would mean there is no such thing as unit coffers, only faction coffers.

The only thing that a Unit should be able to do is put their tag on planets they conquer, and only for the sake of "Bragging rights"..

Also, a Mercenary Faction and Bandit/Pirate faction should be added..

That would be realms vs realms so to speak. With faction honour etc. No, that would be too Battletech. We can't have that

[van Uber]

PalmaRoma, on 29 October 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

Me going nuts as you say would involve alot of personal attacks against people. What I posses is a strong stance, against an utterly stupid idea. The people who support it have no reason for doing so other than, Nerf large units, large units OP. It's the same entitled mentality seen in the light mechs op whine thread ********.That is literally how it comes across, unless I am missing something.

You are missing something.

When rewards will be introduced in CW3 it will be a natural incentive to flock players even more. The largest unit will have the best chance to reap the largest reward to its members.

A unit cap will at worst stem that mechanic. Alliances will have to divide planets/rewards among them instead of just collecting it all. At best it will generate competition between more players than currently and perhaps even migrate units between factions.

So no, it is not "utterly stupid" when you consider what is coming.

Edited by van Uber, 29 October 2015 - 04:38 AM.