306 replies to this topic

[Daidachi]

ThomasMarik, on 09 August 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

That reminds me. When are we getting customs geometry? I want to put boobs on my mech to distract the enemy.

[Terrorsdawn]

Until Faction Play is fixed or at least something is shown to the community it's FULL WHINE mode.

[habu86]

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

MS is an odd example because it's a lot of people, who you drop with in MS is going to significantly change your experience. YMMV applies there more than most units. Not a criticism more an observation of population.

That's certainly very true, but unless people are not paying attention, or there just aren't enough people on the TS, we usually try to make sure that the groups we are run are fairly well-balanced in terms of experience and ability. I will, however, grant you that when population is low or there something else going things can deviate from the ideal (and I get the feeling there's been quite a bit of that lately).

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

It's been some months since I dropped with MS and a significant change since then has been the reduction to only one attack queue. The leaderboard is misleading however as it's talking about 'tags', so 40 drops in the attack queue over the day driving it to 100% is 1 'win' in attack while 4 drops in defense queue against half-hearted attempts to get some matches on Euro/Oceanic equates to 1 defense 'win'. With the new changes you have more total defensive fronts to choose from and only 1 attack. I don't feel it's an unreasonable assessment to say that of the over 44k matches MS has played the majority are in the attack queue. Again, I would say most units (especially Clans) are the same.

Potentially, and I suppose it can very well be another example of YMMV, but my experience with Phase 3 (especially in recent months) has been a fairly even split between offense and defense, though that has also been driven by desperately trying to get games during low-population times.

And yes, I know that it can take fewer drops to get a defensive tag on a planet, but I still wanted to point out the fact that we do, in fact, have quite a few more defensive tags than offensive tags and those can still take a respectable amount of drops to earn. It just rubs me the wrong way to hear folks say units never drop defense, when in fact there is a quite a bit of evidence to the contrary, and not just for MS, but for all other good units as well, regardless of their size.

40 games on attack in one evening? An MS group should be so lucky...

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

The advantage of attack v defense comes down to initiative. Easier to get into position because the wave doesn't generally start until you do. It takes a very aggressive defending team to turn that dynamic around and that's far and away the minority on either side of the faction divide.

Being able to choose the moment to attack only counts for so much because of the chokepoint-oriented map design. Essentially, it usually comes down to whether defenders can beat the attackers to the areas where firing lines and ambushes can be set up or not. If the attackers can rush through those areas before defenders are ready and escape into the backfield, then they do indeed gain an advantage.
On the other hand though, if defenders stand on the W key and move to set up firing lines and kill boxes in places where attackers' movement options are restricted and their ability to set up an imbalance in numbers is limited, then the situation changes.

In my view, in this game mode, initiative is less about who gets to decide when the wave begins in earnest and more about which team can force the other to fight on their terms.

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

Going to reiterate here that the only reason I'm directing these questions at MS is you guys are the ones answering. This applies to every unit. Nothing clears a queue faster than a good team consistently winning on the other side. I watched CJF do contortions and struggle to pug-boss their loyalists to divert around Steiner when KCom switched and suddenly their win/loss declined. Not the only time I've seen it.

No sweat, the conversation is always welcome. There's a lot of misinformation floating around surrounding big units and conversations like this are how we get to tell our version of the story... even if the narrator doesn't necessarily speak for the whole unit but rather happens to be whoever has a slow morning at work and is looking for ways to pass the time

[Commander A9]

Topic still of relevance even now, with people constantly accusing the victorious team of hacking to justify their loss.

If one hopes to improve their skill, one must own their own performance, be it success or failure.

That's the first step towards becoming a good team member.

Also, for the record, my team was recently criticized for their performance with the remark of "way to bring players into the game!"

Excuse me, it is not my responsibility to bring players into the game.

It is not my responsibility to make sure my enemy has fun.

It is my responsibility to win. Recruiting for the game or making the game enjoyable is PGI's job-not mine.

Edited by Commander A9, 15 August 2016 - 03:43 PM.

[DaFrog]

Commander A9, on 14 August 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

Topic still of relevance even now, with people constantly accusing the victorious team of hacking to justify their loss.

If one hopes to improve their skill, one must own their own performance, be it success or failure.

That's the first step towards becoming a good team member.

Also, for the record, my team was recently criticized for their performance with the remark of "way to bring players into the game!"

Excuse me, it is not my responsibility to bring players into the game.

It is not my responsibility to make sure my enemy has fun.

It is my responsibility to win. Recruiting for the game or making the game enjoyable is PGI's job-not mine.

I hope you don't work in marketing,, because your boss would fire or your clients would leave you.
Word of mouth is the strongest form of marketing a product there is. So you putting the work of attracting and increasing the player base solely on PGI's shoulders says a lot about the thinking mentality that seems to grow like a cancer in this community.

I tried to get friends involved in this game. Looks like you will not. That's sad.

[Vasili Kerensky]

The casuals rightly whine. They don't want to be stomped by semi-professional clan pilots with 'mechs that kill with 1 salvo from 1 klik away. They want an environment with players at their own level of skill and equipment and a realistic chance of victory. A humiliating defeat is no one's definition of a good time and nothing else is there for the casual player in FP.

Split the goddamn FP queue in Solo and Group queues, like QM and all problems are solved.

I have a dream...

...of damn scouting matches without seeing 3-4 Stormcrows before me

...of damn Invasions where I won't be afraid to peek around a rock or pillar because I'll know that I won't be promptly killed by an EBJ/TBR/KDK with a gazzilion lasers firing from 1 km away...

...one can only dream.

Edited by Vasili Kerensky, 19 August 2016 - 05:37 AM.

[Aargh Tenna]

Vasili Kerensky, on 19 August 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

The casuals rightly whine. They don't want to be stomped by semi-professional clan pilots with 'mechs that kill with 1 salvo from 1 klik away. They want an environment with players at their own level of skill and equipment and a realistic chance of victory. A humiliating defeat is no one's definition of a good time and nothing else is there for the casual player in FP.

Split the goddamn FP queue in Solo and Group queues, like QM and all problems are solved.

I have a dream...

...of damn scouting matches without seeing 3-4 Stormcrows before me

...of damn Invasions where I won't be afraid to peek around a rock or pillar because I'll know that I won't be promptly killed by an EBJ/TBR/KDK with a gazzilion lasers firing from 1 km away...

...one can only dream.

I concur, partially.

First, blaming the victim is beyond ridiculous. I pay real money to play this game, I should not improve (or, if I want, I may, at my own place, but without pressure) to accommodate the game, the game should improve instead to accommodate me. I do not come here to feel under pressure, harassed, accused of things and be called names. I play this game to enjoy myself, first and foremost.

However, if they split queues we will have no games to play you see (it happened before). Instead, how about banning 12-man groups for good and mandating 2-3-4 pugs in every group? For experienced players, that will bring a nice roulette element in their play, and for pugs will provide a non-compulsory uncommittant training environment.

[Chaubin]

I don't have the time or interest in joining a group of players so I either don't play faction play or I just deal with getting stomped because you're right. A group of coordinated newbs can roll over a group of uncoordinated pros.
I just play the quickplay when I'm solo, and I have a blast. If you get that salty over the game mode, people should just stop playing it.
I'd be perfectly fine if PUG's just stopped and only groups queued up.

[RaptorCWS]

Aargh Tenna, on 19 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

I concur, partially.

First, blaming the victim is beyond ridiculous. I pay real money to play this game, I should not improve (or, if I want, I may, at my own place, but without pressure) to accommodate the game, the game should improve instead to accommodate me. I do not come here to feel under pressure, harassed, accused of things and be called names. I play this game to enjoy myself, first and foremost.

However, if they split queues we will have no games to play you see (it happened before). Instead, how about banning 12-man groups for good and mandating 2-3-4 pugs in every group? For experienced players, that will bring a nice roulette element in their play, and for pugs will provide a non-compulsory uncommittant training environment.

So alter the enjoyment of the people who do enjoy playing FP with a group of 12 people that they either know in real life or have met through the game so it now becomes more enjoyable for you? seems kind of selfish. No one is implying that you need to devote tons of time to improve at the game or join a unit who places wins over fun. but its not hard to find a unit for casual play in FP. they are out there. and if you cant find one start one up with someone who feels the same as you.

[MischiefSC]

Most groups are casuals. 95% of the "12mans" you see are casuals.

The problem is playing solo. There is a bare minimum bar of entry into FW. Bring a decent deck (which can include trials - especially for Clans) and play to your team, follow the calls or call yourself.

If you're not doing those things you're at a huge disadvantage to those who do. It's that simple. There's maybe 24 total players in FW who play "competitive". Everyone else is just varying degrees of casuals.

The problem is that casuals who bring a decent deck, play to the team and either call or follow will almost always crush the casuals who show up with bad decks (I'm a sniper!) and don't play to the team.

Put the FW content in QP so people who just want QP with maps and modes can get it. Destroying FW so it's like QP instead is a terrible option.

[Murphy7]

The problem as I see it is a bit different. To attack, your folks need to be one color &/or unaligned freelancers. To defend, you can be the entire spectrum of your side (IS/Clan) & Freelancers.

Groups that form have a choice to attack or defend, but here's the kicker. Choosing to attack means you will likely face a mix & match defense group that more often than not is made up of a random collection of players at all skill levels and equipment mixes. Defending, you are far more likely to face an organized opponent.

So groups choosing to attack face a higher likelihood of an easy match win than those that defend.

Bad as that is, the game further incentivizes attack as it much easier to pull together a group of randoms to defend that drop than it is to defend a planet and hope one faction can get organized enough to attack it.

People defending their seal-clubbing under the guise that they are going where the matches will occur - they're right.

People accusing those groups of choosing the easy wins over competition - are also right.

It's just how FP is constructed.

Edited by Murphy7, 19 August 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[habu86]

Vasili Kerensky, on 19 August 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

The casuals rightly whine. They don't want to be stomped by semi-professional clan pilots with 'mechs that kill with 1 salvo from 1 klik away.

Load your armor correctly.
Tip: mind your F/R armor rations; anything above 5-6 points of rear armor is wasted

Minimize your peeking around known chokepoints and force the enemy to fight on your terms
Tip #1: if you're not putting fire of your own downrange, expose yourself for no more than a split second and aim to avoid situations where you have to stop and back up in order to get into cover.
Tip #2: Clan high-alpha or high-bust-DPS builds take time to put their full damage out. Start torso-twisting and performing evasive maneuvers the instant you see/feel fire heading in your direction. I know it all seems to happen unbelievably quick right now, but, with practice, you will be able to appreciate 1-1.5 second burn/firetimes for what they are
Tip #3: Long- and medium-range high-alpha builds on either side of the tech base have atrocious heat management capabilities. Do not let them play the poke game. Bait them into wasting successive alphas by exposing for very brief periods while aggressively closing the distance under cover. Take them to their heatcap and pick them apart.

Vasili Kerensky, on 19 August 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

They want an environment with players at their own level of skill and equipment and a realistic chance of victory. A humiliating defeat is no one's definition of a good time and nothing else is there for the casual player in FP.

Split the goddamn FP queue in Solo and Group queues, like QM and all problems are solved.

CW doesn't have the population base needed to implement a MM. In addition, you're running into the issue that every player and unit in-game is vying for the same limited number of prizes and rewards (e.g. tags on planets). There's no good in-game mechanism for self-selecting into skill-banded matches. A number of ideas have been drawn up and some of them have even been suggested at the roundtable, but they're still work-in-progress and a fair way away.

The best I can recommend is to find another 23 like-minded individuals of similar skill and organize scrimmage games by agreeing to meet on certain planets at certain times. It's how the established units do it when they want to guarantee drawing A-teams, but it takes a lot of coordination and is difficult to arrange on a regular basis.

Vasili Kerensky, on 19 August 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

I have a dream...

...of damn scouting matches without seeing 3-4 Stormcrows before me

Drop IS v IS. Try to look for factions that engage in that sort of play. Yes, I know it's difficult to do.
Or just drop as Clan against IS. You'll get to experience the anti-Stormcrow meta from the other side and learn a few things about fighting them.

Vasili Kerensky, on 19 August 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

...of damn Invasions where I won't be afraid to peek around a rock or pillar because I'll know that I won't be promptly killed by an EBJ/TBR/KDK with a gazzilion lasers firing from 1 km away...

See my previous tips regarding peeking. Also, take time to learn the maps and approaches to them.
Tip: Strive to work with your team to move together and create numerical imbalances favoring you. No one wins when trading alone against a firing line. Just the way things are and there is no mech, weapon, or module you can bring to change that.

Aargh Tenna, on 19 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

First, blaming the victim is beyond ridiculous.

Interesting that you see yourself as a victim. It's a cold thing to say, but this is a PvP environment, where the other guys want to win just as badly, if not more so than you. Quick question: when you played ball as a kid, did you see yourself as a victim when you lost? Did you see the other team as aggressors?

Large skill and experience imbalances are never fun, especially when you're on the wrong side of the equation, but framing it in terms of victimization is taking a game a bit far IMO. Sure, we all have games we don't enjoy. It's okay to sulk a bit when you're not doing well, and maybe go do something else for a while if you're having an off day. But to frame it in the context of victims and aggressors, that's... projecting a whole range of other issues on your experience.

Aargh Tenna, on 19 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

I pay real money to play this game,

So do a lot of other people, at all ends of the skill spectrum. The money that you spend entitles you to certain in-game features e.g. reduced grind times, private match instances, extra mech bays, "special" mech variants, paints and other pieces of flair. It does not entitle you to demand that the other team fight with one hand tied behind their backs simply because you choose to do so.

Aargh Tenna, on 19 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

I should not improve (or, if I want, I may, at my own place, but without pressure) to accommodate the game, the game should improve instead to accommodate me. I do not come here to feel under pressure, harassed, accused of things and be called names. I play this game to enjoy myself, first and foremost.

You can choose to improve or not improve at whatever pace you like. So does everyone else. The game and the other players most definitely do not need to change in order to personally accommodate you. Sorry not sorry, it's the way shared social spaces work.

If you are being insulted, harassed, or abused, then know that the folks doing so are in violation of the CoC and you can report them. People have gotten punished for such behavior. That being said, before you go and report someone, do take a moment to consider if what you experienced was a momentary outburst of frustration or active, sustained, and personally directed malice, lest you one day find the roles reversed.

Aargh Tenna, on 19 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

However, if they split queues we will have no games to play you see (it happened before). Instead, how about banning 12-man groups for good and mandating 2-3-4 pugs in every group? For experienced players, that will bring a nice roulette element in their play, and for pugs will provide a non-compulsory uncommittant training environment.

Banning 12-mans is one of the quickest ways I can think of to make waiting times even worse. I cannot even begin to describe the number of times we've tried to do exactly what you say and run smaller groups, hoping to pick up pugs to fill out the numbers, only to be endlessly stuck 1-2 people short and see potential matches lost to Ghost Drop timers.

And that's before even bringing up the special snowflakes who insist on playing "sniper" or "support" builds, dropping lights on wave 1, or just generally derping around, effectively leaving the team undermanned, despite more experienced players' pleading and guidance.

In short, this is a PvP game at present. If you choose to derp and goof around, it is your right to do so. No one can force you not to. But understand that not everybody you play with or against will be wanting to goof off and you cannot force them to play the way you want them to.

Food for thought.

Edited by habu86, 19 August 2016 - 01:18 PM.

[Deadeye254]

I have been apart of most of the big FW units since it came out in one way or another and even have built a decent one form the ground up with the help of some friends. That being said please believe me when I tell you this 99% of all organized teams love it when we get to play other teams over murder stomping pugs the games are much more for filling so stop blaming organized unit for FW problems. PGI doesn't have to do anything to fix this problem you can fix it yourself its easy, download TS join faction TS(look up on forums every Faction has at least 1) coordinate with those that are thee dropping problem solved wow that was so hard.

[Commander A9]

DaFrog, on 18 August 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

I hope you don't work in marketing,, because your boss would fire or your clients would leave you.
Word of mouth is the strongest form of marketing a product there is. So you putting the work of attracting and increasing the player base solely on PGI's shoulders says a lot about the thinking mentality that seems to grow like a cancer in this community.

I tried to get friends involved in this game. Looks like you will not. That's sad.

It is not my responsibility as a player to get you to play this game. It's not my job to keep anyone in this game. It's not my job to recruit, and there's no incentive to recruit anyone into this game to begin with: No MC, no C-Bills, no achievements for signing up new accounts. Nothing.

The job of recruiting and player retention is PGI's-not mine. Why? Because they're the ones getting paid to recruit and retain-I am not.

You are not my client, so if I beat you, PGI isn't going to fire me or fine me or call me into their office to threaten me. Should I downgrade my performance for fear of my enemy quitting this game because I beat him? No.

Although Sun Tsu would say "To win 100 battles is not the height of skill-to subdue your enemy without fighting is."

I do get friends involved: I get friends involved or who are already playing to join MercStar, to drop with MercStar, to learn with MercStar, and win with MercStar, not to play alone or scatter about the universe. When I recruit, I bring them to my team, to join my group, to learn with my group, and win with my group.

What is my job? My job is to play to support my team. My job is to recruit for my team. My job is to win for my team. My job is to beat the enemy and take the planet in Community Warfare from the opposing faction for my team.

So if you leave Community Warfare because I beat you, that's on you-not me. If you uninstall the game because I beat you, that's your decision, not mine.

If you don't like me beating you, well, hell, take the time to improve upon yourself, and stop blaming me-and my team-for what you define as "problems with this game."

[Vanguard319]

I'm just going to add this, since it's relevant to the thread:

[Commander A9]

Very sound, Vanguard.

Rather than reject the large teams and/or the better-skilled units and players, one needs to embrace them, learn from them, and improve upon oneself through dropping alongside them.

Why do you think I joined MS?

[Murphy7]

Quote

Rather than reject the large teams and/or the better-skilled units and players, one needs to embrace them, learn from them, and improve upon oneself through dropping alongside them.

Why do you think I joined MS?

Because you couldn't beat them?

Edit: "If you can't beat them, join them." - It was a joke Cmdr A9, as is FP

Edited by Murphy7, 22 August 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[Commander A9]

I know you're joking, but if I can address this with some candor, I wanted to see what the other side of the Inner Sphere did and how they did it so well. MS gave Clan Wolf International alot of tough fights. Fights that were both won and lost-narrowly.

But when Clan Wolf International made the decision at the beginning of this year to remove themselves from Community Warfare, I felt like my teeth were pulled out. So with the intent of keeping my skills sharp, and after being scouted by MS personnel following my dropping with them during both Tukayyid I and II, I made the decision to formally apply.

Here I am.

So again I reiterate: Rather than reject the big teams, or dismiss them as tryhards, or ultra-competitive no-lifing living-in-mama's-basement overzealous hacking-cheating-exploiting dregs that bring the game down...one should drop WITH said big teams and learn how they do things.

You'll be surprised what you find.

Edited by Commander A9, 22 August 2016 - 02:31 PM.

[MrEdweird]

I'm just gonna drop in here and make a comment. I was looking for a unit to drop with in CW since mine isn't that active anymore. I noticed that I couldn't find any truly active Steiner or Davion units, or at least it didn't seem like it. I wanted to apply to outfits such as HHoD, AW or 12DG (which I think are mostly german) and was surprised to see how little activity there APPEARS to be when compared to, say, a few months ago.

I am at a loss at what a standard IS pug is supposed to do if all of the decent units stop playing actively.

Edited by Edweird, 22 August 2016 - 02:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Some of it depends on time of day. However your observations are not wrong - FW is pretty empty at this point. Maybe eventually if there's some pretty huge changes you may see people trickle back. The current realization however is that PGI largely left it broken for years and only recently had a meeting to discuss what they should consider to change at some point in the future.

I think you'll find that the utter neglect of any of the core features promised many years ago has left most people who played FW so apathetic about it that if you asked them in person what was wrong they wouldn't even say 'too little, too late'. They'd give a little shrug, say 'meh' and change the subject to a different game.