81 replies to this topic

[JigglyMoobs]

IE: send a % of damage points to neighboring components.

In the case of the clan ER PPC, 10 pts go to the component hit and 5 go to the neighbors.

For laser, one could do something like 33% of damage goes to neighboring components.

Therefore, a Timberwolf laser vomit would cap out at ~40 pts pin point plus 20 pt to neighboring components.

This seems a doable change given that they've already implemented it for ER PPC.

Also, it seems less random than most cone of fire schemes.

[Kjudoon]

Question flow for fixing Convergence.

1. Does your solution still have multiple weapons hitting the same point?

Yes? Go to 1.
No? Go to 2.

2. Does your solution include all weapons fired at the same time or within a split second of them even if chained or in multiple groups?

Yes? Go to 3.
No? Go to 1.

3. Congratulations, you have solved the convergence problem.

Edited by Kjudoon, 08 November 2015 - 03:13 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Because that is just derpy......

And not everything is an explosive shell that would spread the damage anyway..

And a CoF scheme makes more sense than anything, especially if your firing while moving. Ever looked at the mech while its moving? arms wiggling, torso swwaying back and forth...as if you would be pin point doing all that. Only while stationary and after a few seconds of aim time while the TC got the guns set to that given convergeance would you achieve anything that could be called "pin point".

If anything, the game would do good with the typical World of Tanks/Armored Warfare "aim time" mechanic, paired along side a CoF mechanic that follows Armored Warfare, its small and typically just enough to ensure you dont always hit dead center, buf if you aim, it pretty much hits where you aim.

Given its a mech game, the "on the move" accuracy could be vastly improved over the tanks, but while moving it should still be pretty inaccurate, or alot more so then when stationary.

[GreyNovember]

I'd be. Kind of upset that I can't shield my vulnerable ST then.

You kind of sort of solve all the damage going into one area, by not letting us shield damaged components.

[JigglyMoobs]

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 November 2015 - 03:14 AM, said:

Because that is just derpy

If anything, the game would do good with the typical World of Tanks/Armored Warfare "aim time" mechanic, paired along side a CoF mechanic that follows Armored Warfare, its small and typically just enough to ensure you dont always hit dead center, buf if you aim, it pretty much hits where you aim.

Given its a mech game, the "on the move" accuracy could be vastly improved over the tanks, but while moving it should still be pretty inaccurate, or alot more so then when stationary.

Here's the state of technology in 2015:
An airplane moving at 700 mph can hit a pinpoint component on a missile moving at 2000 mph thats 100 miles away while experiencing all sorts of turbulence, a tank can move acrossrogh ground at 30 mph, fire in midair as it goes over a bump and hit something else that's moving a mile away with 90% confidence.

You're telling me that a thousand years from now aa giant walking robot cannot hit a giant component on another robot that's moving less than a kilometer away?

I don't know about you but that would make me pretty disappointed about the future.

Heat and secondary effects from a laser can spread to neighboring components. Seems pretty physical to me.

GreyNovember, on 08 November 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

I'd be. Kind of upset that I can't shield my vulnerable ST then.

You kind of sort of solve all the damage going into one area, by not letting us shield damaged components.

Yea its a comprise. This way people who like pin point, and I count myself as one, lose something but also get something back.

[recsa]

I see a lot of convergence posts around here, being new to the game i dont really understand it, why is it really a problem? lore wise it makes sense to me all hardpoint to be "somewhat" gimballed, so targeting computer makes them converge in same spot, so i guess its more a gameplay problem, mind to enlighten me?

[GreyNovember]

recsa, on 08 November 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

I see a lot of convergence posts around here, being new to the game i dont really understand it, why is it really a problem? lore wise it makes sense to me all hardpoint to be "somewhat" gimballed, so targeting computer makes them converge in same spot, so i guess its more a gameplay problem, mind to enlighten me?

In short, people refer to Tabletop having no "Hit this part, this part right here, with all your damage" attack.

MWO does, and they believe this is why people die so quickly. That, and people focus fire.

So they want to remove people's ability to aim all in one spot, or at least hamper it under certain conditions.

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Yea its a comprise. This way people who like pin point, and I count myself as one, lose something but also get something back.

That's not exactly a good thing though. You just kind of. Switched the colors on a car instead of giving it a proper fixup before selling it.

[JigglyMoobs]

recsa, on 08 November 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

I see a lot of convergence posts around here, being new to the game i dont really understand it, why is it really a problem? lore wise it makes sense to me all hardpoint to be "somewhat" gimballed, so targeting computer makes them converge in same spot, so i guess its more a gameplay problem, mind to enlighten me?

People don't like experiences where another player who has good aim picks put one of their components and destroys it with one or a few precisely aimed shots. It's different from their expectations of how a Battletech game should feel so they get upset.

This "problem" becomes more acute with lasers since they are point and click and make component destruction really easy.

Reducing the damage of weapons doesn't "fix" the problem since it doesn't fix the relative differences in aiming skill, thus what those with less aim want is to nerf aiming a bit via a random cone of fire or some other mechanism. However people who are skilled at aiming hate this because it, no kidding, replaces an element of skill with an element of randomness.

People who want cone of fire continue to harp on the issue and feel like everyone else who is a "real Battletech player" agrees with them since everyone who doesn't agree is just an fps player.

In reality there are large numbers of players who disagree with them and all PGI sees is $$ so a viable solution will have to be a comprise.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 08 November 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[recsa]

Ok think i understand it now, basically PGI relayed on player skill the aiming while the tabletop BT i guess uses a random generated result from a table roll (which is the usual method for tabletop games to simulate aiming skill with modifiers on that table).

So in the end the convergence claim its either a way to increase TTK (which imho is a bit too low) or the old Skilled vs non-Skilled player dispute, or both of them.

Wouldnt the inclusion of reflective armor help increase the TTK while adding a new lore step?

[GreyNovember]

recsa, on 08 November 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

Ok think i understand it now, basically PGI relayed on player skill the aiming while the tabletop BT i guess uses a random generated result from a table roll (which is the usual method for tabletop games to simulate aiming skill with modifiers on that table).

So in the end the convergence claim its either a way to increase TTK (which imho is a bit too low) or the old Skilled vs non-Skilled player dispute, or both of them.

Wouldnt the inclusion of reflective armor help increase the TTK while adding a new lore step?

Someone would say it's not available in the timeline yet.

[Dirkdaring]

Stop trying to fix something that isn't broken. Pay attention to whats in front of you, don't keep still. Your torso can twist for more than 1 reason.

[Nightmare1]

With regard to the OP's suggestions,

[Nightmare1]

recsa, on 08 November 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

Wouldnt the inclusion of reflective armor help increase the TTK while adding a new lore step?

I've been saying for close to a year now that PGI should just timeskip and then implement reactive and reflective armors. That would help fix all kinds of problems without breaking hit reg further, much less the aiming mechanics which are one of the few things that work well in this game.

[Khobai]

Quote

And not everything is an explosive shell that would spread the damage anyway..

High velocity rounds like gauss would spiral like crazy through armor. I dont think its unrealistic for a mech to get shot in the torso and have the gauss round end up embedded in the arm. Splash damage like that would help spread out damage and increase TTK and does so in a non-random manner. Thats better than most other solutions people have presented.

Quote

Wouldnt the inclusion of reflective armor help increase the TTK while adding a new lore step?

theyre not available in the current timeline.

only hardened armor is. which would offer increased protection with the downside of increased weight, a speed reduction, and probably reduced jumpjet capability.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

I think one solution they need to consider to fix alpha striking is capacitor/power loop limits. I've said this once and will say it again...

Alpha Strike...

a. Risk of capacitor overload -> random weapons overload and short out and disabled for some time
b. and/or Significantly slower re-charge after alpha strike due to power loop insufficiency
c. and/or instrument brownouts and 'mech slowdown
d. and/or power harness failure -> capacitor output reduced permanently for rest of drop

Alpha striking should be risky. Firing six to eight lasers at one time (if they are medium or large) should tax your system and there should be penalties for it.

Different weapons should have different power demands to balance them. And likewise, to prevent autocannons from getting out of hand due to their lower draw, other weapons like flamers and ppcs should have the ability to randomly cook off ammo due to "hotspotting" so it is a risk to go ultra dakka.

This game needs creative thinking to make logical balance solutions. It doesn't need to be convoluted--it just needs to make sense.

[Mcgral18]

Calculation overload?

Lasers have a tick rate (assumed to be ~a tenth of a second).
Your suggestion would add 2 additional damage calculations, on top of 2 times as many Crit rolls once armour is breached. For 24 mechs.


Hitscan once upon a time could crash the server game instance...not sure if they could handle 300% load.

Edited by Mcgral18, 08 November 2015 - 12:35 PM.

[Hotthedd]

A Cone of fire isn't random, it is a probability simulator, and realistic. What is unrealistic is expecting pinpoint precision while firing multiple weapons, while moving, and/or while your machine is overheating.

As far as 2015 war machines go, they are either only firing one weapon at a time, or they are using guided munitions. In any case, the 3050 BT universe is not the 2015 actual universe.

And I always have to laugh at the "aiming skillz" crowd. You are dragging a mouse and clicking a button, you are not aiming. You are not even simulating aiming. Go out to a gun range sometime. Deal with recoil, ballistics drop, try to empty an entire clip from a fully automatic weapon into one target.
Hell, use a laser pointer instead, it takes a second to light up that bullseye. Now grab 6 laser pointers and do it. Then do it while running and jumping. Let me know when you are able to get all 6 on target instantly. Until then, don't brag about your aiming skillz.

[Agent1190]

Hotthedd, on 08 November 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

And I always have to laugh at the "aiming skillz" crowd. You are dragging a mouse and clicking a button, you are not aiming. You are not even simulating aiming. Go out to a gun range sometime. Deal with recoil, ballistics drop, try to empty an entire clip from a fully automatic weapon into one target.
Hell, use a laser pointer instead, it takes a second to light up that bullseye. Now grab 6 laser pointers and do it. Then do it while running and jumping. Let me know when you are able to get all 6 on target instantly. Until then, don't brag about your aiming skillz.

"Because if a human can't do it, then a giant machine 1000 years in the future can't do it either."

Well done.

[Monkey Lover]

It's nice but remember people die from smash damage as much as pin point. If you have a red side and I alpha ct your mech the splash will kill you. I seen this happen lots of times with theclan ppc. Even to the point I would take some splash damage over 100% pinpoint.

[Hotthedd]

Agent1190, on 08 November 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

"Because if a human can't do it, then a giant machine 1000 years in the future can't do it either."

Well done.

In the BT universe, Battlemechs are not the precision machines you seem to think they are. And even so, it is the PILOT (human) that aims, not the Battlemech. And I love the idea that gimbals would efficiently move one fifth of a vehicles' weight with ease and no negative effects on aim.

However, it was more of a rant against people who brag about their aiming skills when they wouldn't know the difference between gunpowder residue and cheeto dust.