54 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

TLBFestus, on 28 November 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Nice explanation Bishop but it doesn't really explain why they drop the ball so frequently on the abundantly obvious, such as the cockpit monitors that have taken 2 years to fix.

Believe we've already had that conversation. It's a simple matter of priorities. It's a glossy bauble that matters little to actual gameplay. But now that it's going to Steam, you need that glossy bauble to avoid getting murdered by Casual Reviews. Already gonna have enough issues (real and imagined) with Balance, learning curve, etc.

Honestly if they weren't going to steam, I could care less about the monitors for the time being.

adamts01, on 28 November 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

It's the 2 & 3 year old, universally recognised, problems which don't get recognized that piss me off. I use lights for most of my examples because they're what I'm most familiar with. Things like this Jenner torso being neglected for so long, just to have some completely idiotic hit box change. There's a huge, jutting torso on that thing, moving hit boxes just shifts the problem, armor/structure buffs or geometry chsnges are the only solutions to mechs with easy to hit components. Then to see the Firestarter get quirks instead.... & then the build an OP Clan Firestarter and give it quirks! Really PGI? People are unjustly hard in PGI for a lot if things, but it's hard to back them up when they make stupid decisions like I mentioned.

As far as cockpit monitors. I don't know how much programing it would take and it's not as important to me as actual gameplay changes. It would be a nice little feature but I don't care too much either way about it.

Yes..and yet, after the ACH (recent phenomena still) and FS9, it's still the 3rd/4th most heavily run Light Chassis, meaning that despite it's "glaring weakness" it's not so bad that it has massively impacted it's use.

Even with that "fixed" as much as it can be, considering geometry, it's still going to be second fiddle to the FS9 amon IS lights, because the FS9 has way better geometry for soaking damage, and more hardpoints.

What feels like a dumpster fire to you, may appear to be a minor thing to them. And again... focus on changes that affect 1 single mech, or changes that affect the game as a whole? Am I defending it? Not really, but I am saying that the forums have been known to be just a LITTLE hyperbolistic over the years.

[adamts01]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

What feels like a dumpster fire to you, may appear to be a minor thing to them. And again... focus on changes that affect 1 single mech, or changes that affect the game as a whole? Am I defending it? Not really, but I am saying that the forums have been known to be just a LITTLE hyperbolistic over the years.

In the big scheme of things the handfull of OP lights don't matter so much. I agree with you on that. But in the light class, the Firestarter was a 2 year long trashcan fire that got diesel dumped on it when quirks hit. As far as being "second fiddle" because a mech isn't humanoid, that's stupid. Goofy mechs should have armor quirks to make them translate well to a fps, just as mechs with crap hardpoints should have quirks to make them usable.

[Bishop Steiner]

adamts01, on 28 November 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

In the big scheme of things the handfull of OP lights don't matter so much. I agree with you on that. But in the light class, the Firestarter was a 2 year long trashcan fire that got diesel dumped on it when quirks hit. As far as being "second fiddle" because a mech isn't humanoid, that's stupid. Goofy mechs should have armor quirks to make them translate well to a fps, just as mechs with crap hardpoints should have quirks to make them usable.

you don't seem to get it. Unless you quirk in armor to obscene levels it will never be as good as having good spreadable hitboxes in the first place. Because spreading damage allows you to tank more than having high hit points in one easy to hit area. And if you overbuff armor that much you screw the balance in other regards.

The only thing you can sensibly do is asymmetrical buffs, like the Huginns insane rate of fire. But short of giving the Jenner the torso HP of a 65 ton mech it will NEVER be as tough as a mech with great hitboxes and testability, like the FS9 or ACH.

[adamts01]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

The only thing you can sensibly do is asymmetrical buffs, like the Huginns insane rate of fire. But short of giving the Jenner the torso HP of a 65 ton mech it will NEVER be as tough as a mech with great hitboxes and testability, like the FS9 or ACH.

I get that humanoid mechs are inherently better. I've been at this for a while. The Oxide was alright before the last change. It didn't have "65 ton armor," just a little bit to help it not melt as a brawler, the only thing it does well. All Jenner variants are close to mid range fighters, they could all use the same treatment. It would help them just enough without making them OP.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

you don't seem to get it. Unless you quirk in armor to obscene levels it will never be as good as having good spreadable hitboxes in the first place. Because spreading damage allows you to tank more than having high hit points in one easy to hit area.

Mechanically it's no different. If I have to swing a Dragon's nose around to shield the sides and use the extra hit-points on the nose to soak the damage, it's no different than me just spreading it across multiple torsos. You still have to expend as much effort to take me down and I still have to expend as much effort to keep the damage where I want it: on my nose and not my squishy XL-equipped side torsos.

Even PGI is realizing that what they did to the Catapult was an oops. That's why it's getting buffs to the torso sections.

[YokiLin]

Darian DelFord, on 28 November 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Something dawned on me

Now I look at just about every other light medium and assault and literally almost Every Mech (read Not All) and every chassis has either an armor, structure or both buff. Yet the Jenner and the Firestarter are the only two chassis that are completely un-bufffed (Except the Oxide (P2W?))

I am just curious why these two chassis were left out of the structure and armor buffing. I just don't get it.

Yes we all know I am a huge jenner Proponent, but these new quirks just baffle the crap out of me, they really do.

PGI could definitely be looking at how the Huginn sales were ~double the sales of some of the other heroes after Huginns were buffed.
During the "We Can be Heroes" tournament there were over 1,840 Huginns that went into matches at least once, compared to around 1,160 Embers.
Maybe they are trying to switch the Oxide in for the Huginn.


However, PGI could be sneakily offering an option to solving what tended to be the Oxide's, and not any of the other Jenner's (hint hint), greatest weakness which is a headache for anyone who tried to design an Oxide before.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Mechanically it's no different. If I have to swing a Dragon's nose around to shield the sides and use the extra hit-points on the nose to soak the damage, it's no different than me just spreading it across multiple torsos. You still have to expend as much effort to take me down and I still have to expend as much effort to keep the damage where I want it: on my nose and not my squishy XL-equipped side torsos.

Even PGI is realizing that what they did to the Catapult was an oops. That's why it's getting buffs to the torso sections.

it's quite different since a good humanoid mech pilot spreads shots on torsos, arms and even their back, as needed. Making it impossible to focus one spot. You can twist all you want in a walking CT.... I'm going to hit you in it.

adamts01, on 28 November 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

I get that humanoid mechs are inherently better. I've been at this for a while. The Oxide was alright before the last change. It didn't have "65 ton armor," just a little bit to help it not melt as a brawler, the only thing it does well. All Jenner variants are close to mid range fighters, they could all use the same treatment. It would help them just enough without making them OP.

This I concur with and have pestered Russ about. It needs doing, but it's apparently not gamebreaking (at least in PGIs opinion) considering how common Jenners still are, despite that weakness.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

it's quite different since a good humanoid mech pilot spreads shots on torsos, arms and even their back, as needed. Making it impossible to focus one spot. You can twist all you want in a walking CT.... I'm going to hit you in it.

You are missing the point. I want you to hit the CT. I am deliberately using that large CT to prevent you from hitting the much softer side torsos, which I can do. I am changing the 'Mech's weakness into a strength, where what you want to do to such a 'Mech is turn it into a vulnerable barrel that can be killed in one and a half shots to the side...which you can now no longer spread at all if I have you at an oblique angle because your ST has been enlarged.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 10:20 PM, said:

You are missing the point. I want you to hit the CT. I am deliberately using that large CT to prevent you from hitting the much softer side torsos, which I can do. I am changing the 'Mech's weakness into a strength, where what you want to do to such a 'Mech is turn it into a vulnerable barrel that can be killed in one and a half shots to the side...which you can now no longer spread at all if I have you at an oblique angle because your ST has been enlarged.

it the mech had some massive amount of CT armor that kept it from getting cored fast, that almost might work. But with insta convergence and 50+ alphas? I'll take spreading that damage over soaking it, thx.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

it the mech had some massive amount of CT armor that kept it from getting cored fast, that almost might work. But with insta convergence and 50+ alphas? I'll take spreading that damage over soaking it, thx.

I wouldn't, not when that compels the 'Mech to choose between firepower or speed when otherwise I could have firepower and speed.

Spreading damage is a myth and always will be. You only spread damage because whoever you are fighting is either lacking or ignoring trigger discipline. As soon as you turn to face, they own whatever component they want from you.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

I wouldn't, not when that compels the 'Mech to choose between firepower or speed when otherwise I could have firepower and speed.

Spreading damage is a myth and always will be. You only spread damage because whoever you are fighting is either lacking or ignoring trigger discipline. As soon as you turn to face, they own whatever component they want from you.

lolz

Why would I compromise speed and firepower?

It's not a black and white world, and yes, if you know how to twist on a well designed mech, you can have your cake and eat it too.

Especially in the Laservomit era. Lasers spread. And BTW, you have the ability to choose your shots, too.

Unless you concede initiative...in which case, yeah, twisting won't matter...because you are a victim.

But what do I know...I'm just a Tier 3.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 November 2015 - 11:49 PM.

[adamts01]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

Spreading damage is a myth and always will be. You only spread damage because whoever you are fighting is either lacking or ignoring trigger discipline. As soon as you turn to face, they own whatever component they want from you.

You can't spread a gauss or IS ac but you can absolutely spread laser and lrm damage. I frequently solo dires in my laser vomit timby because I put the daka where I want it then alpha his CT. Dakas need to keep facing their target and dires can't torso twist. Spreading damage is real.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:

lolz

Why would I compromise speed and firepower?

Because choosing is exactly what you have to do to run a fast Standard engine, and that reality is the foundation upon which the whole Clan vs. IS debate has been constructed? And even if you manage to squeeze competitive-ish firepower into a fast Standard on a Heavy, you are either running skimpy armor or you are running hot. I mean, I can squeeze my 4xLL+2xML vomit build into a STD300 on my Jester, but with only 13 DHS it's outside of the 1.2-1.3 efficiency Goldilocks zone. It gets hot quick and stays hot longer than desirable

Note when I say competitive, I do not mean pug-viable, I mean within striking distance of competitive-level Clan builds on the EBJ or HBR. If we were talking about merely being pug-viable, then the Catapult wouldn't have needed any changes at all because it was already plenty viable there. I ran it with good results. Or is your experience the only one that matters? Am I not allowed to also know what I'm talking about since that would be picking on a poor little old Tier 3?

(Tiers mean approximately jack-all. Do not mistake me for being in that e-peen race, there's a reason I hide mine).

Quit being passive aggressive with me; it's petty and it doesn't make you look stylish.

Quote

It's not a black and white world, and yes, if you know how to twist on a well designed mech, you can have your cake and eat it too.

And if you know how to shoot, you can easily bypass spread attempts.

It works both ways, dude.

I am actually very good at spreading my damage, even in the pre-change Catapult, but I also know that's because most people are not practicing good trigger discipline for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because they have so much firepower that they don't have to, because they know I'm as good as dead or because killing me isn't the immediate objective. Sometimes it's because they are simply not good at holding onto a component. Sometimes it's because they are distracted and have to switch targets or retreat.

Quote

Especially in the Laservomit era. Lasers spread. And BTW, you have the ability to choose your shots, too.

They don't spread as much as you think they do, not when your typical quirked Medium laser only takes around 0.72-0.81 seconds to burn and when a Large pulse laser takes even less. And a Clan burn will still dump between 32 and 37 in that same time frame. Combine with finite twist speed and finite reaction time, and even less will be spread. So while you can get the tail ends of the damage somewhere else, the bulk is going exactly where I want it to which, in this case, is your exceptionally large, under-armored, XL-equipped side torso. If you are in a STD Catapult and I'm in an EBJ, then I can force you to overheat or otherwise not shoot. I can also outrun you, out-range you, or dramatically out-gun you. Possibly even all of those at once.

And being able to choose my shots is exactly why you can't spread. I will only ever shoot you when you present that target, and you will present that target every time you want to shoot me. You only shoot something else if you know your weapons will be back online before the target can turn around and get a shot off, otherwise you are giving him the initiative.

adamts01, on 29 November 2015 - 12:28 AM, said:

You can't spread a gauss or IS ac but you can absolutely spread laser and lrm damage. I frequently solo dires in my laser vomit timby because I put the daka where I want it then alpha his CT. Dakas need to keep facing their target and dires can't torso twist. Spreading damage is real.

I have yet to meet a Banshee or a Timberwolf or even a Storm Crow that can actually spread enough of my BJ-1X laser burns that it really matters. Any significant spread is easily recognizable as error on my part (I tend to tense my wrist up and it throws my aim sometimes). Even when CROW drops against units llike 228 or QQ, they don't spread very much. Instead, those teams seem to focus on returning fire because effort spent twisting is, more often than not, effort better spent drilling and they often have a firepower advantage they can exploit that makes for a more effective defense than twisting (best defense is a good offense, etc.). They know that when you pop up is when it's time to shoot and they know that twisting merely gives the advantage to the enemy.

I do know the difference between PPFLD and lasers. I'm not a goddamn neophyte. I'd sooner wager that you are conflating the lack of ability in your opponents for ability on your part, because your statements and my experience are not aligning at all. Twisting is good at simply increasing effort required to land damage, but it rarely prevents damage from going places all by itself. It relies almost entirely upon your opponent being too slow or too imprecise to react to your motions, and 'Mech geometry merely increases the speed and precision required to compensate.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 November 2015 - 01:14 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Darian DelFord, on 28 November 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Something dawned on me

The Firestarter and the Jenner were really the only mechs NOT given either of these.

Now I look at just about every other light medium and assault and literally almost Every Mech (read Not All) and every chassis has either an armor, structure or both buff. Yet the Jenner and the Firestarter are the only two chassis that are completely un-bufffed (Except the Oxide (P2W?))

This just completely baffles me, while I agree the firestarter is a tough ass mech, the Jenner, arguably has the worst hit boxes in the game, and it does not matter how many times you "tweak" them that WILL NEVER change, due to the build of the Jenner, It's just all torso, so no amount of hit boxes iterations will change how easy it is to get hit and eventually explode.

So my question is, why are these the only 2 mechs that received no such buffs, and the Jenner received the worst of all the new quirks of all the lights. The firestarter yeah I can kinda understand but still. I do not think it can be argured that the Jenner is a Tier 1 light anymore. I personally would drop it to a 3 but thats just me

I am just curious why these two chassis were left out of the structure and armor buffing. I just don't get it.

Yes we all know I am a huge jenner Proponent, but these new quirks just baffle the crap out of me, they really do.

I'm not a huge Jenner proponent, but I would like to use it and not feel gimped, I blow the dust off, now and then, it's easier to hit than a Raven which does get quirked up, I think the bottom line is Paul or someone close to him, doesn't like them, as there certainly isn't any logic to the quirks given to nearly every mech in the game.

[C E Dwyer]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

I wouldn't, not when that compels the 'Mech to choose between firepower or speed when otherwise I could have firepower and speed.

Spreading damage is a myth and always will be. You only spread damage because whoever you are fighting is either lacking or ignoring trigger discipline. As soon as you turn to face, they own whatever component they want from you.

Have to say this is correct, 1v1 twisting against a pilot with good trigger discipline means jack, they will hold fire until you turn to engage and then zap they have you, some will even tease with a few weapons giving you the option of trying to shoot back of just being pealed and taken down that way.

Twisting will keep you alive for friends to come help, or in a match with people that don't hold back and fire as soon as weapons have cooled down.

What kept XL brawling build Victors alive, wasn't torso twisting, it was the Jump jets and arm mounted weapons, you could launch hard and high readjust, and take the fire in the legs, this is what kept it alive while shooting down with lasers and ac20 the srms were a bonus and the spread when it registered would often take out the mech with crits, it why it fails so badly now, and until it gets some bounce back always will, unless it gets some major weapon cool down quirks that make STD engines viable on them.


Bottom line is firepower wins every time which is why a team that pushes hard and concentrates fire wins over one that pulls away and avoids damage.

[Black Fish]

I think that trying to make every light 'Mech on par with the rest is not the way.. each 'Mech should have an identity - what is it designed to do? Jenners have a big CT? as most people said giving it straight buffs to try to preserve that big nose wont help. How about give it a different advantage - make it so that if goes unnoticed it can deal a lot of damage, give it heat and cooldown quirks so that if you have the patience to lose enemies' aggro, or go for a long flank around to get to the lrm 'Mechs that are behind you will get the upper hand.
IMO, PGI should create categories other than weight classes and give each category an identity, such as Brawlers, 'Mech Destroyers, Fire Support - thus creating a meta-game that is actually healthy - where roles are important.
Currently there is no tactics in the game, no strategy... outlining roles would do great.

[Yosharian]

Darian DelFord, on 28 November 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Something dawned on me

The Firestarter and the Jenner were really the only mechs NOT given either of these.

Now I look at just about every other light medium and assault and literally almost Every Mech (read Not All) and every chassis has either an armor, structure or both buff. Yet the Jenner and the Firestarter are the only two chassis that are completely un-bufffed (Except the Oxide (P2W?))

This just completely baffles me, while I agree the firestarter is a tough ass mech, the Jenner, arguably has the worst hit boxes in the game, and it does not matter how many times you "tweak" them that WILL NEVER change, due to the build of the Jenner, It's just all torso, so no amount of hit boxes iterations will change how easy it is to get hit and eventually explode.

So my question is, why are these the only 2 mechs that received no such buffs, and the Jenner received the worst of all the new quirks of all the lights. The firestarter yeah I can kinda understand but still. I do not think it can be argured that the Jenner is a Tier 1 light anymore. I personally would drop it to a 3 but thats just me

I am just curious why these two chassis were left out of the structure and armor buffing. I just don't get it.

Yes we all know I am a huge jenner Proponent, but these new quirks just baffle the crap out of me, they really do.

Jenner needed to keep its old hitboxes and simply get monster CT armor/structure buffs.

Anyone can figure out that simply morphing the hitboxes to make the STs larger just makes... the STs easier to hit, which is still death to an IS Light.

[adamts01]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

I have yet to meet a Banshee or a Timberwolf or even a Storm Crow that can actually spread enough of my BJ-1X laser burns that it really matters.

I agree with about everything you're saying. But claiming a 1.5 second burn clan er large can't be spread because a quirked blackjack medium laser can't be spread is kind of silly.

I'm also fully aware how many comp players chain fire their lasers right in your face to keep the damage on, output the same dps and play a little psychological warfare on you. I've also beat some of the best players by twisting around in between my alphas. I'm talking about some of the "best" players too. I'm not saying I'm that great, but they ended up putting damage all over my timby while theirs was cored.

I'm not claiming to he an expert or that my way is best, just that in some situations spreading damage is possible and twisting is very advantageous.

[TLBFestus]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Believe we've already had that conversation. It's a simple matter of priorities. It's a glossy bauble that matters little to actual gameplay. But now that it's going to Steam, you need that glossy bauble to avoid getting murdered by Casual Reviews. Already gonna have enough issues (real and imagined) with Balance, learning curve, etc.

Honestly if they weren't going to steam, I could care less about the monitors for the time being.


Yes..and yet, after the ACH (recent phenomena still) and FS9, it's still the 3rd/4th most heavily run Light Chassis, meaning that despite it's "glaring weakness" it's not so bad that it has massively impacted it's use.

Even with that "fixed" as much as it can be, considering geometry, it's still going to be second fiddle to the FS9 amon IS lights, because the FS9 has way better geometry for soaking damage, and more hardpoints.

What feels like a dumpster fire to you, may appear to be a minor thing to them. And again... focus on changes that affect 1 single mech, or changes that affect the game as a whole? Am I defending it? Not really, but I am saying that the forums have been known to be just a LITTLE hyperbolistic over the years.

So the argument goes that they delay fixing the "baubles" because they aren't important like game play issues which have a higher priority.

I can accept that, but it's too much of a blanket explanation. Mechs....mech packs....Heroes..... Champions...... they are more bauble than important game play issues. Now..they make money for PGI so they can continue to develop the game, so there is that.

I think the important thing here is that they they are assigning priorities but the driving priority is to make MONEY. Fix cockpit monitors? Why bother? Oh...STEAM release. they better put as much spit polish as they can on this thing.

I just don't assign credit for PGI furthering the game out a desire to make the best game they can, or they would be fixing the little things constantly, not leaving details to fester, and making that little extra effort that shows pride in their work.

They fix things to make money, not out of a need to do the best they can, not out of a need to appease the community.

Actually, once I accepted that it became much easier to follow their development path. Also much easier to feel fine in being critical of them since they aren't doing anything "for us" but for themselves.

[Y E O N N E]

adamts01, on 29 November 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

I agree with about everything you're saying. But claiming a 1.5 second burn clan er large can't be spread because a quirked blackjack medium laser can't be spread is kind of silly.

I'm also fully aware how many comp players chain fire their lasers right in your face to keep the damage on, output the same dps and play a little psychological warfare on you. I've also beat some of the best players by twisting around in between my alphas. I'm talking about some of the "best" players too. I'm not saying I'm that great, but they ended up putting damage all over my timby while theirs was cored.

I'm not claiming to he an expert or that my way is best, just that in some situations spreading damage is possible and twisting is very advantageous.

Is it silly? We're talking about how it works at or near the pinnacle of play, which means people will only be running either the best IS quirks or Clans. Nobody I know uses a C-ERLL unless they have a sniping strat (and then they'd more likely take IS ERLL for that for the boosted range), they use C-LPLs and every other Clan laser besides it. If they take IS 'Mechs, it's an anything goes festival because they are going to be taking laser-quirked 'Mechs and all of them have short durations, sometimes to the point where they are actually out-pacing the damage-per-tick that the Clans have.

In my case, I take a BJ-1X when it's time to work. The burn is 0.72 seconds on Medium Lasers. That's ~38 damage in 0.72 seconds at 350 meters. Some people take a WVR-6K, where it's 27 or 36 damage in 0.85 seconds at 608 meters. Some people take an EBJ, where it's 54 damage in 1.15 seconds...which is 46 in 0.85 seconds or 39 in 0.72 seconds. Point being, it's a lot of damage in a short spurt, a spurt so short that there is nothing you can do to stop that big wallop from slamming into one component because your opponent can probably react as fast as you and your 'Mech doesn't twist faster than his mouse cursor can move. This is why my rule of thumb for weighting weapon stats follows an exponential curve for duration: the benefit you see for short duration falls off as you dip under 0.8 seconds.

I'm not an amazing player myself; I'm only T2 and I defer the hard carry in my unit to players like Mizeur (honorary member, former actual), Batspoon, and Flynn Hassek. Still, I successfully spread damage against SJR, 228, etc. on many occasions even in pre-fix Catapults and Dragons. The thing is, they just weren't trying to follow my motions. They know they have a firepower advantage over me, often an armor one, so even if they don't play in the most efficient manner that they will win. It's all about level of effort. If I somehow manage to get them on the ropes, there is a visible change in their actions where they become far more precise in their motions and it can take you by surprise. I once got into a Light duel with Spr1ggan on Bog: my LCT-1E vs. his ACH, small pulse for both of us. I was managing to spread his C-SPL shots quite well even when legged. I got him down to within one shot on the CT and he changed. He slowed down, started taking cover behind a nearby tree, and deliberately aimed instead of trying to evade and snap-shot, and it blew me away in one go, despite my previously effective spread attempts. I thought I had two more shots at least, but that caught me off-guard.