400 replies to this topic

[Moira]

Suggestions how to fix easily some of the anger issues from Clanners:

* Revert that CLRM20 change or make em Equal to IS on reload/cycle times
* Increase Seismic Sensors range by 50% ??? so assaults have even a change to "scream for help" and try to protect themselfs

I think those changes would make alot of sense and help out alot.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Moira, on 03 December 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

... Revert that CLRM20 change or make em Equal to IS on reload/cycle times

C-LRM-20 ... 4 slots, 5 tons ... IS LRM-20 ... 6 slots, 11 tons

Everything else about them, except the cooldown, is the same ... I think C-LRMs get the better end of that deal.

[Moira]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 03 December 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

C-LRM-20 ... 4 slots, 5 tons ... IS LRM-20 ... 6 slots, 11 tons

Everything else about them, except the cooldown, is the same ... I think C-LRMs get the better end of that deal.

If you look like that yes CLRM20 is better, but when you look at it where you can put it (mechs) and where it will have even some impact CLRM20 looses by miles. If I had mech like on clan side that would have Quirks even as half as good like STK-3H or CPLT-C4 I wouldnt even dare to ask that what I said in earlier post.

So lets not pick things by the face value, but the bigger picture.

[MuffledOrk]

So these new screens that look like the equaliser things you get on fancy stereo systems, does that mean we going to actually get some in battle music now or is just going to be start finish as usual?

[R7S]

Don't like the patch at all

With new skill values my mechs feels like lazy pandas.
But i think PGI made this for new players. And i hope there will be a lot of new players after Steam launch.
When let so be it.

But Gauss... +1.5 sec to cooldown?
Is this that gauss that need to charge before shoot? Is this that Gauss that exploding with first hit into structure killing your mech?
Ok... With 5.5 sec Gauss cooldown I need to choose mech with quirks...
And this is not fair that some IS mechs have 25-30% ballistic+gauss cooldown, but clan mechs have 5% max (and this is Warhawk).
It does make any sense? I can understand clan lasers nerf.
But Clan-Gauss is the same power and distance as IS-Gauss...
It's just sad. My lovely Gauss... Why...

[Grothaus]

I think the silent nerf to Cheeta leg armor wasnt needed,.... the IS can choose between ALOT of good lights, with a variety of good quirks, speed.

The Cheeta is the ONLY good clan light, and it didnt need to get nerfed....

**** im sick of this ****, and i dont plan on playing much longer.

Ill explain why....

MWO uses the same "balancing" model as games like WoW

They add in a mind boggling array of positive/negative quirks, weapon differences, engine, heatsink differences, only to make deciphering it all that much more confusing,..... impossible really. which is the point, they dont want balance.

They seesaw from mech/wep flavor of the month, like other ****** MMOs, so players jump from one foot to the other, buying more mechs, spending more money.....

this type of game balancing is all just a big SCAM, which will involve endless nerfs, and constantly making some mechs better then others,..... its just the same treadmill seesaw dishonest ******** gamers have seen over and over in other MMOs.

**** YOU, No thanks

Edited by Grothaus, 03 December 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Grothaus, on 03 December 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

I think the silent nerf to Cheeta leg armor wasnt needed,.... the IS can choose between ALOT of good lights, with a variety of good quirks, speed.

The Cheeta is the ONLY good clan light, and it didnt need to get nerfed....

**** im sick of this ****, and i dont plan on playing much longer.o

Ill explain why....

MWO uses the same "balancing" model as games like WoW

They add in a mind boggling array of positive/negative quirks, weapon differences, engine, heatsink differences, only to make deciphering it all that much more confusing,..... impossible really. which is the point, they dont want balance.

They seesaw from mech/wep flavor of the month, like other ****** MMOs, so players jump from one foot to the other, buying more mechs, spending more money.....

this type of game balancing is all just a big SCAM, which will involve endless nerfs, and constantly making some mechs better then others,..... its just the same treadmill seesaw dishonest ******** gamers have seen over and over in other MMOs.

**** YOU, No thanks

MWO does seem to follow the WOW method of "balancing", but I do not believe that it is because PGI is trying to scam us into buying more mechs. I think that this knee-jerk buffing and nerfing is mostly a reaction to the incessant whinng of the squeaky wheels, just like when Blizz "balances" WOW based on the performance of the Arena PVP flavors of the month.

Edited by Ed Steele, 03 December 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[stjobe]

Ed Steele, on 03 December 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

MWO does seem to follow the WOW method of "balancing", but I do not believe that it is because PGI is trying to scam us into buying more mechs.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- "Hanlon's Razor", Robert J. Hanlon

[KursedVixen]

stjobe, on 03 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- "Hanlon's Razor", Robert J. Hanlon

and ontop of it all PGI is biased they favor IS that is why IS can get a er large laser with an otimum range of 810m try it on any IS mech with a 10% laser range quirk and add the module for that laser Er large 20% = 810m riduculus then they nerf the clan heat sinks I might as well dump all my extra heatsinks if their not worth the money i paid for them.
and this only is with a module Clans have to do this with a targeting computer AND a module.

Edited by KursedVixen, 03 December 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[ObnoxiousGamer]

Grothaus, on 03 December 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

The Cheeta is the ONLY good clan light, and it didnt need to get nerfed....

U wot m8? Lemme know how that works out for ya when you get annihilated by my Adder's 48-damage SSRM 6 alpha strike. It may be slow, but holy HELL does it pack a punch. It's one of the few light 'mechs I like to play, and the only lights I really play are clan 'mechs. I think the ability to customize hardpoints is far better on lights than engine size, except in extreme cases such as the URMs. In case of fast lights, I use them for flanking and ambush - exactly what they're meant for in this game. Use your 'mech to the best of its ability, not as a wall. You may find its performance is better than you remember.

[NocturnalBeast]

ObnoxiousGamer, on 03 December 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

U wot m8? Lemme know how that works out for ya when you get annihilated by my Adder's 48-damage SSRM 6 alpha strike. It may be slow, but holy HELL does it pack a punch. It's one of the few light 'mechs I like to play, and the only lights I really play are clan 'mechs. I think the ability to customize hardpoints is far better on lights than engine size, except in extreme cases such as the URMs. In case of fast lights, I use them for flanking and ambush - exactly what they're meant for in this game. Use your 'mech to the best of its ability, not as a wall. You may find its performance is better than you remember.

As I always say, it is the pilot that makes the mech work or not.

[KursedVixen]

ObnoxiousGamer, on 03 December 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

U wot m8? Lemme know how that works out for ya when you get annihilated by my Adder's 48-damage SSRM 6 alpha strike. It may be slow, but holy HELL does it pack a punch. It's one of the few light 'mechs I like to play, and the only lights I really play are clan 'mechs. I think the ability to customize hardpoints is far better on lights than engine size, except in extreme cases such as the URMs. In case of fast lights, I use them for flanking and ambush - exactly what they're meant for in this game. Use your 'mech to the best of its ability, not as a wall. You may find its performance is better than you remember.

The cheetah didn't need the nerf it's the only good "Fast" clan light all the other clan lights fit their roles well but the cheetah was more like the clan firestarter btw how many streaks do you have 2? 4?

anyway this is how I see the game should be balanced

NO WEAPON QUIRKS EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-PPC and ERPPC velocity restored to it's former glory
-Guass cooldown reverted.
-restore clan laser range
-Remove range increase from targeting computers.

Adder,Nova,Warhawk(And other energy boat mechs) get - heat gen or heat efficeny+ quirks to offset the loss of the weapon quirks(only on the mass energy omnipods/ mechs)

"removing Meta is moving goal...Can chase, cannot catch." There will always be what people call meta. trying to remove it is not a good idea.

Edited by KursedVixen, 03 December 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[ObnoxiousGamer]

KursedVixen, on 03 December 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

The cheetah didn't need the nerf it's the only good "Fast" clan light all the other clan lights fit their roles well but the cheetah was more like the clan firestarter btw how many streaks do you have 2? 4?

To answer your question, I have four SSRM 6s. About your statement that the ACH chassis was the only good, fast, clan light 'mech, I can stick 2 SSRM 6s on an MLX, along with three ER Small Lasers and 200 SSRM ammo. That's pretty good for a mech that can do 113/129 KPH. It's a 39-damage alpha, which is 9 less than my ADR but could be seen as a reasonable tradeoff.

EDIT: For future reference, there are only four clan light 'mechs. Only two of them go faster than 100 KPH, and are considered 'fast.' So when you say, "only good fast clan light 'mech," you're actually deciding between two 'mechs.

Edited by ObnoxiousGamer, 03 December 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

There are a couple of elements at play here

1) PGI's desire to build a 3025 game and, to hear certain staff tell it, forced by IGP to make a 3050 game instead

2) Inability of the engine/programming staff to implement alternative ammunition types that would let us have proper LB-X weapons, and allow PGI to advance the timeline to give IS certain technologies to offset the Clans such as precision and armor-piercing ballistics, and swarm, follow-the-leader, and fascam LRMs.

3) Inability of the engine/programming staff to implement 10 v 12

4) Inability of the engine/programming staff to implement true criting. If this could be implemented or the engine alone it would go a long way towards balancing the smaller, harder-to-hit IS Standard engine against the more robust Clan XL. If it could be extended to other systems (sensors, life support, gyro), this could quickly become a fantastically immersive element.

5) attempting to balance two disparate game modes. One of which features mixed-tech teams (public queues), and the other homogenous tech teams (community warfare).

6) A lack of chassis depth for the Clans. Due to locked engineering elements some mechs are left with a great deal of space and not much tonnage, or a lot of available tonnage and not much space. A handful that are oversized for their tonnage. Some with truly horrendous hitboxes. Or some combination of the above. Into this a few have shown through, mostly because of luck, and from necessity more than anything else these mechs have come to dominate the game.

Nobody at PGI so far as I'm aware has publically commented on a 40 ton mech for the Clans, and the only comments regarding a 20-ton mech have been variations of 'it will break the game' in reference to the Fire Moth. Aside from limited-use Adder builds, and escort-build Kit Foxes that are starting to be seen again with the resurgence of LRMs, this has left the Arctic Cheetah to face off against 46 variants of 10 chassis.

The Stormcrow, widely regarded as the best medium in the game, has been forced to become so because it is filling all the roles into which the IS can slot a 50-60 ton mech. The Nova was practically a joke, and a combination of tonnage, available hardpoints (and their locations), and hitboxes invalidate the Mad Dog for anything except missile-centric warfare. Against this the IS can field 54 variants of 11 chassis.

Similar stories can be told for the other 'problem' Clan mechs. (And lest anyone take this wrongly, let me be clear, they are a problem).


And now that I have identified what I see are the problems, let us turn to what I see as possible solutions.

1) There is no easy way to address this. Either suck it up and move on (the route PGI seem to be taking), or take the problematical route some seem to be favoring of refunding those who bought clan packs (probably with MC), and build the game they want

2-4) If it is truly a limitation on the game engine, then there is nothing to be done for it. If is a case of programming skill, then the programmers with it would need to be acquired (which PGI must remain solvent to do).

6) This should work itself ut with time. We've had almost 4 years to get up to almost 200 mechs (actually 205 variants of 43 chassis once the Rifleman packs are injected), and only a year and a half for the 87 variants of 21 mechs available to the Clans (including Origin-series). Yet these numbers may sound better than they are. For the Clans, 65% of weight tonnages have no, or only one chassis in it (includes Origin-series, otherwise 82%), while for the IS the 'one or none' occurs in barely 24%. A full 47% of the weight brackets available to the IS have 3 or more chassis (includes packs through Rifleman, 35% as currently released), while the Clans have a fat 0% in brackets with 3+ chassis. All of this means that the IS pilot who has to take a 50-tonner can choose a Hunchback or Centurion, while the Clan pilot has no recourse but the Nova.


*Note on numbers. Special, Champion and Sarah's Jenner are not counted towards these numbers as they are additional content linked to an otherwise available chassis. Hero mechs are counted as unique variants.



#5 is the hard one. The one I don't have an answer for. And ultimately the one that I think is a large source of the Community's problems with PGI's past and present attempts to inject 'game balance'.

What I do know is that in my CW drops since the patch, Clan 12-man team are finally closely competing with IS pugs. Russ put out on twitter that he dropped 12-man with Star Wolves to similar effect.


[color="#0066cc"]Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock [/color] 19h19 hours ago
Played a couple matches with SWOL this evening - 12 man against pugs and those pugs did great - matches about 40-48 ish and very fun


(I am not sure if he means SWOL lost by 8, or won by 8. Usually one posts one's own score first but...)
Anyway, make of it what you will.

Edited by Kael 17, 03 December 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[Grothaus]

stjobe, on 03 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- "Hanlon's Razor", Robert J. Hanlon

Id like to believe PGI was just stupid, but I dont buy that excuse.

Any gaimg team that was trying to achieve "balance" would never do so like this, the crazy quirks that give some mechs ultra short cooldowns, unbalanced weapons, unbalanced dropdeck weights, unbalanced armor levels on equivalent weighted mechs, unbalanced hitboxes, unbalanced speeds, and engines.

The sheer amount and variety of unbalance creates a situation where trying to unravel it all becomes mind boggling, whining and crying on the forums is just another aspect that is apart of the whole WoW balancing, makes it seem like they are listening when they roll out nerfs, and its an endless process..... with every patch comes anxiety, whos going to get nerfed to hell?! and whos going to be the flavor of the month!!!!.... and it will never end....

I just want to play, and have my success based more on skill, maneuvering, strategy and teamwork, and not how good i am at playing hot potato and knowing what mech is this months hot sauce.

I just dont have time for this game anymore,


AND

the nerf to Cheeta leg armor was MAJOR, good light pilots go for (Open Torso/vunerable spot > Legs > Back) generally, whenever i come across another light, i jump on their legs immediately most of the time, unless something else is about to blow and it makes more sense to do otherwise. For larger mechs i try for their back first, legs 2nd, and open spots if it makes sense.

Ive noticed after the patch, im losing my legs from the -20% leg armor nerf, alot faster... and other lights are now harder to kill because they have even more armor.

Also any light pilot will tell you, SPEED is life, which is why the Cheeta is the only real viable Clan light mech when it comes to scouting/survivabilty..... IS gets PLENTY of FAST lights, many faster then the Cheeta, they also get crazy quirks that either dissipate heat or give them extremely low cooldowns...... but Clan heatsinks are better on paper....lol...this type of illogical/"magical" balancing is a joke..... why would it ever make sense for IS standard heatsinks to dissipate heat way better then Clan double heatsinks, due to some "magical" quirk type system...... the sheer variety, of fast IS lights, all with quirks, etc, give IS light pilots more options to cater to their specific playstyle/wep preferences.

PGI has decided to "balance" the game like WoW, its not stupidity, the formula is obvious and tested.

1) Create large undecipherable combinations of unbalance.
2) Sit back and watch players whine and cry endlessly
3) Offer solutions of nerfing and buffing endlessly.
4) Watch players constantly buy and rotate thru mechs trying to keep up with the insanity.
5) as you nerf and buff, pretend like its because you care about the players and their concerns.

[Jack Spade Ward]

PGI, IS players, please, take a look at that link, you might actually learn something from it.
The reason why Clans win (a bit) more, i would say is because of skill... clan tech tends to need alot more skill to use it, so we can find better players on the clan side.
But what happens when a damn good player or unit joins IS faction?

This happens:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Well, there are even some videos of some 228 doing a drop in their King Crabs with dual gauss doing 48 kill vs 0 kills, and they were kurita back then!
They joined wolf faction for the tukayyd event, that way they think they actually might have a chalange agaisnt them and to get drops, since most are IS... and we all know that people will, undoubtatly folow the meta, thus, are IS.
Not only, alot of peole and units are at the moment waiting for the chance to swap to IS for the event, they want to do well and win.
Good luck 228, the way the nerfs got the clans, you guys will need to be on your best

[NocturnalBeast]

Spadejack, on 03 December 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

PGI, IS players, please, take a look at that link, you might actually learn something from it.
The reason why Clans win (a bit) more, i would say is because of skill... clan tech tends to need alot more skill to use it, so we can find better players on the clan side.
But what happens when a damn good player or unit joins IS faction?

This happens:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Well, there are even some videos of some 228 doing a drop in their King Crabs with dual gauss doing 48 kill vs 0 kills, and they were kurita back then!
They joined wolf faction for the tukayyd event, that way they think they actually might have a chalange agaisnt them and to get drops, since most are IS... and we all know that people will, undoubtatly folow the meta, thus, are IS.
Not only, alot of peole and units are at the moment waiting for the chance to swap to IS for the event, they want to do well and win.
Good luck 228, the way the nerfs got the clans, you guys will need to be on your best

I mentioned this to Russ on Twitter. The reason Clans win more often in CW is because most of the top-tier merc groups drop as Clan in CW, while the majority of IS players drop in small, or PUG groups. And there are probably less than five Clan loyalist unit left who can field a full 12-player group at any given time.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Just a thought ... now that more IS 'mechs can compete with the best the clans can field, maybe the next step for game balance is to (somehow) improve the performance of the under-performing Clan chassis?

[Jack Spade Ward]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 03 December 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Just a thought ... now that more IS 'mechs can compete with the best the clans can field, maybe the next step for game balance is to (somehow) improve the performance of the under-performing Clan chassis?

Or unnerf them maybe?

[KursedVixen]

Spadejack, on 03 December 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Or unnerf them maybe?

or start nerfing IS mechs harder