100 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

LordNothing, on 02 December 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

want to fix clan laser vomit? then unlock the bloody sinks! i have 3 clan mechs i want to turn into ballistics boats, but cant because sinks i dont need eat up all the ammo space.

Wait for IICs. Omnimechs (apart from the Dire) are pretty much forced to be energy boats due to locked DHS wasting tonnage, overly large engines using too much tonnage and locked endo/ferro crits taking up the leg/head space where ammo should go. Not to say you can't run ballistic builds on Omnis, but its not fully efficient. And people wonder why all the clan mechs energy vomit...

There is no excuse for not unlocking at least DHS and ES/FF on Omnis now IICs are being released. Id keep engines and JJs locked though, for flavour.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 02 December 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[Troutmonkey]

Alistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

I'm seeing Stalkers actually combine missiles and lasers, like they did in BT lore, for the first time since 2013.

This has inspired me to try out the old brawler stalker 3F. 2xASRM4, 2xASRM6, 6xMLAS
Results so far: It's very hot and the bay door delay is annoying.

EDIT: Torso's kept falling off. Stalker 3F is terrible brawler, much better peaker

Edited by Troutmonkey, 02 December 2015 - 02:14 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

The funny thing is clan energy boats are subpar due to long burn times (allowing enemies more time to focus fire a component) and terrible heat efficiency (outside of small lasers and pulse).

I tried a 2x LPL and 4x er ML EBJ build, it was completely useless up close and while it had an impressive alpha, the longer burn times just meant spread damage. It was also way too easy to lose a side torso since you had to expose your entire body for the burn duration.

I also tried a 5x ER ML/UAC 10 build but i'm not impressed...the UAC just jams too much and it runs too hot for the damage.

[Lily from animove]

Sader325, on 01 December 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

i just did 1200 damage in my MAD-BH2 with 5 MPL and 2 LPL.

So... I guess not?

that evil clanmechs . . . ohh wait.

Sandpit, on 01 December 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:

6 MPL = 36 damage & 24 base heat

That also doesn't account for missing some of that damage or spreading that damage due to the very nature of energy weapons. That's conveniently not discussed though. It's also not discussed that at 18+ DHS you will not be runnign things like
ECM
AMS
Beagle
XL Engines (unless you're running a really large one and using internal HS)
Endo
Ferro
Targeting Computer
or anything else because you don't have the slots

Showing a screenshot of a heat buildup on a map shows absolutely no context as to the other weapons.


MPL = 6 damage 4 heat 3 second cooldown
AC5 = 5 damage 1 heat 1.8 second cooldown

Please show me how that's "unbalanced"
Before you start, I will remind you I've argued energy weapons for 3 years now. I already know the arguments most of you are going to make.
Ammo dependency
Slots
Weight
Welp, that offsets the 1.8 cooldown (that's nearly 2 rounds for every 1 shot from an MPL PLUS a heck of a lot more range)

6 seconds to fire an MPL twice
5.4 seconds to fire an AC5 three times

MPL may or may not do all of it's damage to a single area
AC5 hits a single area guaranteeing to deal 5 damage to a single pinpoint location every time

so lets look at a reasonable 3-4 AC5 build since the examples were mostly heavies and assaults
4 AC5 alpha = 20 damage
6 MPL = 36 damage

now lets extend that slightly.

lets say over 10 seconds
you'll get 3 volleys from the MPLs = 108 damage
you'll get 5 volleys from AC5s = 100 damage

You can also do that damage from 700 meters out as opposed to 220 meters....

3 volleys MPL = 72 base heat over 10 seconds
5 volleys AC5 = 20 base heat over 10 seconds

(starting to see the trade-offs yet?)

That barely touches the surface of the nuances and trade-offs involved in just those two weapon system of similar damage rates. I fail to see any major imbalances there.

Oh, did we also forget that AC5 has no ghost heat penalty?

ac5 is unbalanced thats why ac 2 and ac 10 are so much in the shadow of it. Buffing the AC2's heat was okish, But I guess not enough for a real balance.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 December 2015 - 02:51 AM.

[sycocys]

People didn't really want any change if you read through a lot of the PTS feedbacks.

Also PGI refuses to implement new weapons and tech - so when you have ACs and Lasers, vomit of one - the other - or both is going to be the meta.

[LordNothing]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 December 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

Wait for IICs. Omnimechs (apart from the Dire) are pretty much forced to be energy boats due to locked DHS wasting tonnage, overly large engines using too much tonnage and locked endo/ferro crits taking up the leg/head space where ammo should go. Not to say you can't run ballistic builds on Omnis, but its not fully efficient. And people wonder why all the clan mechs energy vomit...

There is no excuse for not unlocking at least DHS and ES/FF on Omnis now IICs are being released. Id keep engines and JJs locked though, for flavour.

i actually prefer ppcs to large er/pulse lasers on the clan side (polar opposite of the is mentality). i think its the mediums and the smalls coupled with the large number of attainable energy slots the omnitech allows for really high alphas is more of the problem. iic is going to be a different animal, is flexibility with clan firepower. especially looking forward to that hunch iic for some serious ballistic firepower. laser vomit will be almost a non issue because you cant change an omnipod and get more laser points.

still the issue with the omnimechs remain. for example i have a dual ac5 nova, with all the ac quirks stacked in my favor. of course with only 3.5 tons of ammo it really isnt viable for staying power but it sure is a fun build. i could get another 4 tons in there if i could offload the heat sinks, maybe throw in some backup weapons too. i shouldn't get penalized for choosing to equip non-laser weapons.

even if you fix the problem globally, you are still breaking a key balancing point between lasers and ballistics. guns need fewer heat sinks but now have ammo limiting them. and not being able to remove those sinks means that is effectively a defacto ballistics nerf. in the case of my nova is pretty much cutting my ammo/ton in half.

to fix laser vomit globally i think mechs should have a power system, sort of what keeps gauss from firing more than 2 at a time. if you try to draw too much power by firing a large alpha, the fire control system will extend the burn time to spread out the energy consumption over time to keep from redlining the reactor. this would encourage firing smaller groups to avoid the face time. start it at 30 damage (where gauss is limited), and for every 10 damage over that add a second of burn time. ppcs might be exempt from this mechanic because its very hard to fire more than 3 of those at a time anyway and not die, or there might be a variation like an increased cooldown.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 December 2015 - 04:50 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

LordNothing, on 02 December 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

I think its the mediums and the smalls coupled with the large number of attainable energy slots the omnitech allows for really high alphas is more of the problem. iic is going to be a different animal, is flexibility with clan firepower. especially looking forward to that hunch iic for some serious ballistic firepower. laser vomit will be almost a non issue because you cant change an omnipod and get more laser points.

This is complete hogwash, sorry. One of the Hunchback IICs has 8 Energy ports. Even with zero hardpoint inflation, the Marauder IIC will have at least 9E, Warhammer IIC will have at least 7E, Rifleman IIC will have at least 5E, all high mounted. And those values are without hardpoint inflation, which basically every single non omnimech so far released has had some inflation - id be shocked if the Rifleman-IIC has less than 3E per arm for example.

Omnitech is NOT required to get craptons of E hardpoints.

[LordNothing]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 December 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

This is complete hogwash, sorry. One of the Hunchback IICs has 8 Energy ports. Even with zero hardpoint inflation, the Marauder IIC will have at least 9E, Warhammer IIC will have at least 7E, Rifleman IIC will have at least 5E, all high mounted. And those values are without hardpoint inflation, which basically every single non omnimech so far released has had some inflation - id be shocked if the Rifleman-IIC has less than 3E per arm for example.

Omnitech is NOT required to get craptons of E hardpoints.

theres a reason that hunch is in my cw drop deck.

give you another example, the gargoyle, which can boat a dozen lazers with the right omnipod mix. granted it has no pod space, but as a medium small laser boat it is deadly. also a cw drop deck standard when im clan aligned.

iic laser hunch can wield 8 lasers, one less than the is version, will get more damage and be quite deadly in the laser vomit department. none of the other iic mechs have as many, so this (and 6 laser jenner iic) is probibly a bad example. future iic? we will see.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 December 2015 - 05:30 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

LordNothing, on 02 December 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

theres a reason that hunch is in my cw drop deck.

give you another example, the gargoyle, which can boat a dozen lazers with the right omnipod mix. granted it has no pod space, but as a medium small laser boat it is deadly. also a cw drop deck standard when im clan aligned.

iic laser hunch can wield 8 lasers, one less than the is version, will get more damage and be quite deadly in the laser vomit department. none of the other iic mechs have as many, so this (and 6 laser jenner iic) is probibly a bad example.

Its not a bad example. It only ever matters what that one mech on the field right now has, no one cares about its variant brothers sitting in the mechbay! Also, try to remember that the IICs coming on the 15th are only the start. If you think PGI arent going to cash in on the MAD/WHM/RFL/etc IIC mechs you are insane, and wrong.

Also no clan mech can ever alpha more than 8E in one go without ghost heat (well, 10E if you include 2xERPPC in the alpha, but no one does that)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 02 December 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Paigan, on 02 December 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

Thanks for the explanation. I am very well aware of the dynamic evolution of words.
However that does not apply here. It's no subtle change of meaning, it's a FUNDAMENTAL misinterpretation.
That is not an evolution, it is just an error in communication. No matter how many people use that error.
Example:
when "banca rotta" evolves into "bankrupt" over the centuries ("the trading table is broken"), that is perfectly fine.
But if someone comes along and says all of a sudden "hey guys, the word 'table' now means space rockets, okay?" that is NOT evolution. It is just dead on stupidity, nothing more.
if a thousand people run around and shout "Oh look, NASA is launching another table!" that does NOT make it correct. All it does is tearing down proper communication.
Otherwise, everyone could chaotically redefine words we use for communication at will and just say "hey, language evolves, broaden your chair".
"Metagaming" might be used in 10 different ways elsewhere, but always in the sense of the word: above/beyond the actual gaming. NOT in the MWO-misinterpreted way of saying "top notch" INSIDE the game.

You're just simply wrong. This isn't even a matter of debate. Google it. Google 'metagame' in the context of gaming and sports and you'll see thousands of people using the word 'metagame' exactly the way it's used in MWO, even predating MWO itself.

Here's a post on a League of Legends forum from 2011:

Quote

Metagame is more the prevailing strategy. A good example is sports. In soccer, the metagame is 4 def, 3 mid, 3 attack, 1 goalie. Its because it is the most effective strategy. In soccer's case, the rules are also layed out like that.

Metagame can be constantly shifting and changing from team to team and season to season, for instance in basketball where there are different defenses and offensive plays, or really hard-set, for instance in baseball where every single team has 9 defensive players in the same formation, or in between, like in (american) football where each team uses different formations, but sticks to the same basic guidelines.

The current meta formation in LoL is fairly hard-set, with a mage mid, a ranged AD bot with a 0cs support in a 2v2 lane, a solotop, and a jungler. Hope that helped you understand.

Here's another dude comparing the word 'metagame' to 'paradigm', which is a reasonable comparison. This is a blog post from 2013, and again there's a parallell drawn between sports and games, as in my last post.

Going around shouting that the whole world is wrong is just pointless. This is the way everyone's using the word. If everyone's using the word the same way, then there is no "error in communication", because everyone understand what it means. Furthermore, the prefix 'above' or 'beyond' is so vague and abstract that it effectively carries little meaning when dealing with such complex concepts. 'Above' arguably refers to the view of how the game is played when you make an overview of all the games being played. The word 'overview' has connotations of altitude, same as 'above'. It works, even if you want to be pedantic about it.

In conclusion:

Paigan, on 02 December 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

And please don't write me another PM saying how arrogant I am. YOU started with the "broaden your horizon" statement. I only answered accordingly.

I only write people PMs if I feel we're just having a private conversation in public, which is pointless. In this case, however, our conversation is over.

[0bsidion]

Alistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

First of all, I have to say, I'm seeing a lot of positive stuff going on after this patch. Specifically, I'm seeing a lot of people trying out new builds. I'm seeing Stalkers actually combine missiles and lasers, like they did in BT lore, for the first time since 2013.

I've been running my Stalkers that way since I started my IS account several months ago. And yes, I know, before this patch it wasn't exactly optimal, but I still enjoyed it. And it's always nice to have patches/buffs that compliment builds you've been using all along.

I have to admit I'm not sure how I'll feel if my weird builds somehow become the new meta when all this time I've been doing my own thing. Next thing I know they'll be calling my LRM 10/ER PPC/ 4 ERSL/2 MG Nova a meta cheese build

[Alistair Winter]

Troutmonkey, on 02 December 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

This has inspired me to try out the old brawler stalker 3F. 2xASRM4, 2xASRM6, 6xMLAS
Results so far: It's very hot and the bay door delay is annoying.
EDIT: Torso's kept falling off. Stalker 3F is terrible brawler, much better peaker

Laservomit meta confirmed

The bay door delay is kind of interesting though. You'd think there would be some sort of big advantage from having those doors, to balance a hugely significant bay door delay. But as far as I know, there's no big advantage. There's simply a disadvantage if you keep them open all the time. Same as King Crab claws.

Am I wrong?

sycocys, on 02 December 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

People didn't really want any change if you read through a lot of the PTS feedbacks.

I think a lot of people wanted changes PGI wasn't interested in. E.g... <cue broken record> role warfare.

0bsidion, on 02 December 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

I've been running my Stalkers that way since I started my IS account several months ago. And yes, I know, before this patch it wasn't exactly optimal, but I still enjoyed it. And it's always nice to have patches/buffs that compliment builds you've been using all along.
I have to admit I'm not sure how I'll feel if my weird builds somehow become the new meta when all this time I've been doing my own thing. Next thing I know they'll be calling my LRM 10/ER PPC/ 4 ERSL/2 MG Nova a meta cheese build

Yeah, I know that feel. Same with my Black Knight, which would possibly have risked becoming a common IS heavy mech if the Marauder didn't arrive the same time as the BK got buffed.

I wonder if AC2 mechs will go back to being considered meta cheese, such as when people were running 3xAC2 on their Shadowhawks or Atlases.

[Weeny Machine]

I am disappointed. I thought the patch would try to bring velocity weapons and lasers closer together. But hey, I also thought there would be info warfare and not just another quirk pass.

[Alistair Winter]

Bush Hopper, on 02 December 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

I am disappointed. I thought the patch would try to bring velocity weapons and lasers closer together. But hey, I also thought there would be info warfare and not just another quirk pass.

You mean increase the speed of ballistics and PPCs? Personally, I would have gone for lower heat instead, because I'm still tired of the PPC+ballistic meta.

I agree 100% about the latter though. Was really looking forward to some major changes.

[Dimento Graven]

Alistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

First of all, I have to say, I'm seeing a lot of positive stuff going on after this patch. Specifically, I'm seeing a lot of people trying out new builds. I'm seeing Stalkers actually combine missiles and lasers, like they did in BT lore, for the first time since 2013. I'm seeing people use AC2s, AC5s and AC10s. I'm seeing Griffins and Centurions and Kintaros armed with SRMs again.

But I just had a few matches with my carry-harder laservomit mechs (Nova, Warhawk, Black Knight), and... well, I still got higher scores than with any other mech that I've tried out (except for my 4xLRM15+A Awesome, which is still going strong).

I'm kind of wondering if, when the dust settles and everyone's had a bit of fun with their 2xAC2 Cicadas, 3xAC5 Marauders and SRM Catapults... is good old fashioned laservomit still going to dominate until PGI finds a replacement for ghost range? &quot;Now with 90% less gauss rifles&quot;?

Yes, laser vomit, and computer guided weaponry boats will still rule this game because PGI seems hell bent on ******* over every other weapon system.

[Mystere]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 December 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

Wait for IICs. Omnimechs (apart from the Dire) are pretty much forced to be energy boats due to locked DHS wasting tonnage, overly large engines using too much tonnage and locked endo/ferro crits taking up the leg/head space where ammo should go. Not to say you can't run ballistic builds on Omnis, but its not fully efficient. And people wonder why all the clan mechs energy vomit...

There is no excuse for not unlocking at least DHS and ES/FF on Omnis now IICs are being released. Id keep engines and JJs locked though, for flavour.

Someone Tweet Russ. And by "someone", I really meant "everyone with a Twitter account".

[Mystere]

LordNothing, on 02 December 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

to fix laser vomit globally i think mechs should have a power system, sort of what keeps gauss from firing more than 2 at a time. if you try to draw too much power by firing a large alpha, the fire control system will extend the burn time to spread out the energy consumption over time to keep from redlining the reactor. this would encourage firing smaller groups to avoid the face time. start it at 30 damage (where gauss is limited), and for every 10 damage over that add a second of burn time. ppcs might be exempt from this mechanic because its very hard to fire more than 3 of those at a time anyway and not die, or there might be a variation like an increased cooldown.

Instead of increasing the burn time, I'd rather that cooldown be increased significantly.

Alternatively, include all energy weapons in the Ghost Heat limit and/or calculation.

[Mister Blastman]

Alistair Winter, on 02 December 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

You mean increase the speed of ballistics and PPCs? Personally, I would have gone for lower heat instead, because I'm still tired of the PPC+ballistic meta.

I agree 100% about the latter though. Was really looking forward to some major changes.

There were major changes but everyone cried and moaned about the laser lock mechanic. It wasn't a great mechanic, but it sure helped.

Mystere, on 02 December 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

Instead of increasing the burn time, I'd rather that cooldown be increased significantly.

Alternatively, include all energy weapons in the Ghost Heat limit and/or calculation.

Powergrid overload. Alpha too many weapons at one time--receive a cooldown penalty due to grid overload and inability to charge all the capacitors simultaneously. Also suffer a temporary speed penalty.

That'd hurt the alpha strike meta more than anything aside from removing convergence (and that isn't going to happen).

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 02 December 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

People didn't really want any change if you read through a lot of the PTS feedbacks.

And that was pretty loud and clear. <smh>

It also does not bode very well for Info-Tech, especially if you take into account the cheering on the news it will not be around for quite a while.

Alistair Winter, on 02 December 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

I think a lot of people wanted changes PGI wasn't interested in. E.g... <cue broken record> role warfare.

Based on the grumbling from the fattie lovers about the Info-Tech idea presented by PGI, I am beginning to doubt that.

Edited by Mystere, 02 December 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[Sandpit]

Lily from animove, on 02 December 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

that evil clanmechs . . . ohh wait.




ac5 is unbalanced thats why ac 2 and ac 10 are so much in the shadow of it. Buffing the AC2's heat was okish, But I guess not enough for a real balance.

good lord
The AC5 was simply used as an example because it was very close to the same amount of damage.
Your opinion on the AC5 being unbalanced has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said