Jump to content

Is... Is Laservomit Gone Tho?


100 replies to this topic

#61 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,274 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:15 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 02 December 2015 - 02:10 AM, said:

The funny thing is clan energy boats are subpar due to long burn times (allowing enemies more time to focus fire a component) and terrible heat efficiency (outside of small lasers and pulse).

I tried a 2x LPL and 4x er ML EBJ build, it was completely useless up close and while it had an impressive alpha, the longer burn times just meant spread damage. It was also way too easy to lose a side torso since you had to expose your entire body for the burn duration.

I also tried a 5x ER ML/UAC 10 build but i'm not impressed...the UAC just jams too much and it runs too hot for the damage.


Right, so the meta laser vomit build is completely useless. We all believe that, completely.

#62 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:29 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 02 December 2015 - 02:10 AM, said:

The funny thing is clan energy boats are subpar due to long burn times (allowing enemies more time to focus fire a component) and terrible heat efficiency (outside of small lasers and pulse).

I tried a 2x LPL and 4x er ML EBJ build, it was completely useless up close and while it had an impressive alpha, the longer burn times just meant spread damage. It was also way too easy to lose a side torso since you had to expose your entire body for the burn duration.

I also tried a 5x ER ML/UAC 10 build but i'm not impressed...the UAC just jams too much and it runs too hot for the damage.
<sigh>

Question: Why do Clan lasers burn longer than IS lasers?
Answer: Because they are smaller, lighter, hit harder, and at longer ranges.

THAT IS SO UNFAIR!!!

#63 AdamBaines

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,384 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:38 AM

View PostJae Hyun Nakamura, on 01 December 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

But in general PGI did a good job in this patch. I have the feeling mechs stay longer on the battlefield, with the new heatcap IS and Clan seem to be closer to eachother. The slowdown makes mechs more big and stompy.


Yea. I agree. The Time to Kills seems to have risen substantially. There were times I was taking a pounding in matches last night, or watching others who were and was like....any second now.....any second now and I'm/they are going down. And did not. Id say it was an extra 30 seconds to a minute in some cases. And the top speed of some mechs is not so insane now (still insane, just not as much).

#64 Sandpit

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 17,419 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationArkansas

Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:50 AM

View PostMystere, on 02 December 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:


Instead of increasing the burn time, I'd rather that cooldown be increased significantly.

Alternatively, include all energy weapons in the Ghost Heat limit and/or calculation.

I think that would be horrible. Here's why,

On the surface that sounds like a simple straightforward thing to do with lasers. Here's the issue with an increase in cooldown for them. Something everyone seems to completely forget about is that a laser does damage over time in a continuous beam. This is significant and can't be downplayed because it is fundamental to being able to help balance a weapon like lasers.

Ballistics, shoot, hit or miss, do full damage every time you hit regardless of how accurate your shot actually was. You aimed for CT, hit leg instead. You still do all your damage, reload, and fire again.

Lasers dont' work like that though. You fire a laser and you must continue that process for the entire beam duration. Yes an LL might do 9 damage, but a good % of those shots do not do 9 damage to a single location. They actually work more like missiles in this case in that they spread damage more often than not.
The beam duration can't be interrupted or stopped once it is fired off. It spreads damage and takes xx seconds to burn off its entire damage payload.

That's a HUGE mechanic to take into consideration. The dynamic of using a laser is unique in this game. There's no other system that works like that. Increasing the cooldown is really just going to increase their cooling effectiveness (unless you want to go back through and completely redo the heat, beam duration, etc. to adjust for a lengthier cooldown) becaue the longer you have to wait to fire off that laser, the cooler you're going to get, which means you can actually comfortable boat MORE lasers.

Beam duration...
I dunno, those beam durations are pretty lengthy as it is. An IS LL has a beam duration of 1 second. That doesn't sound like much, but realistically in this game that's an extremely long time. 9 damage = .11 damage per second.
Think about that number.
That means if you are lucky enough to get a glancing shot as a mech passes between cover for .3 seconds at an optimal range you'll do a whopping .33 damage.
.33 damage
from a large laser
that still generates 7 heat

Lets break that down a little further
Since it was a run and gun situation (which is usually more common than being lucky enough to find a silly mech pilot who stands still in a fight) you're more than likely going to have that spread to a MINIMUM of 2 areas
That great big old .33 damage now becomes .165 damage to two separate locations.

Before anyone calls lasers "op" they really need to start breaking stuff like this down.

The math for damage, heat, duration, cooldown, etc. does not take into account the practical application of the weapon. If you're basing your opinion of lasers based on base stats, your'e doing it wrong.

#65 Jman5

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 4,914 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:51 AM

View PostDimento Graven, on 02 December 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

<sigh>

Question: Why do Clan lasers burn longer than IS lasers?
Answer: Because they are smaller, lighter, hit harder, and at longer ranges.

THAT IS SO UNFAIR!!!

I feel like everyone forgets that Clan lasers do significantly more damage than their IS peers. A clan ER ML does 40% more damage than an IS ML.

If it were up to me, I would have just lopped off 0.5 - 1 damage off each laser (clan and IS) and called it a day. The problem is that they do too much damage. So the easiest solution is to stop screwing around with all this over-complicated stuff and just reduce its damage output slightly. This would cut those alpha-strikes down by 5-8 which wouldn't kill them, but it would have an effect.

#66 Mister Blastman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 8,444 posts
  • LocationIn my Mech (Atlanta, GA)

Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:53 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 02 December 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:


Right, so the meta laser vomit build is completely useless. We all believe that, completely.


I don't normally agree with Jun but I think the point buried in his post is most Clan 'mechs don't tank damage well at all due to their pathetic arms and elongated torso. It is the chief reason I hate running them because in the PUG queue, the only way to win consistently is to face tank, soak damage for the team and rally them to follow.

#67 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,274 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:00 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 02 December 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:


I don't normally agree with Jun but I think the point buried in his post is most Clan 'mechs don't tank damage well at all due to their pathetic arms and elongated torso. It is the chief reason I hate running them because in the PUG queue, the only way to win consistently is to face tank, soak damage for the team and rally them to follow.


I typically try to get longer range sight-lines so I can take advantage of the Clan laser ranges and then just win trades while my team does whatever they do. I just make sure to stay with them and make sure that my shots are suppressing them from getting good shots on my team. Sometimes **** hits the fan though, it is the public queue after all. JJs can help by using elevation to get better shots. ECM can help by concealing the dorito. Hellbringer took a hit with the Gauss nerf though. Guess it can only laser vomit now. Its a shame that while some consider the Gauss nerf necessary, it reduced the amount of viable builds.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 December 2015 - 10:02 AM.


#68 Dino Might

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Little Helper
  • Little Helper
  • 2,030 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:03 AM

View PostSandpit, on 02 December 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

I think that would be horrible. Here's why,

On the surface that sounds like a simple straightforward thing to do with lasers. Here's the issue with an increase in cooldown for them. Something everyone seems to completely forget about is that a laser does damage over time in a continuous beam. This is significant and can't be downplayed because it is fundamental to being able to help balance a weapon like lasers.

Ballistics, shoot, hit or miss, do full damage every time you hit regardless of how accurate your shot actually was. You aimed for CT, hit leg instead. You still do all your damage, reload, and fire again.

Lasers dont' work like that though. You fire a laser and you must continue that process for the entire beam duration. Yes an LL might do 9 damage, but a good % of those shots do not do 9 damage to a single location. They actually work more like missiles in this case in that they spread damage more often than not.
The beam duration can't be interrupted or stopped once it is fired off. It spreads damage and takes xx seconds to burn off its entire damage payload.

That's a HUGE mechanic to take into consideration. The dynamic of using a laser is unique in this game. There's no other system that works like that. Increasing the cooldown is really just going to increase their cooling effectiveness (unless you want to go back through and completely redo the heat, beam duration, etc. to adjust for a lengthier cooldown) becaue the longer you have to wait to fire off that laser, the cooler you're going to get, which means you can actually comfortable boat MORE lasers.

Beam duration...
I dunno, those beam durations are pretty lengthy as it is. An IS LL has a beam duration of 1 second. That doesn't sound like much, but realistically in this game that's an extremely long time. 9 damage = .11 damage per second.
Think about that number.
That means if you are lucky enough to get a glancing shot as a mech passes between cover for .3 seconds at an optimal range you'll do a whopping .33 damage.
.33 damage
from a large laser
that still generates 7 heat

Lets break that down a little further
Since it was a run and gun situation (which is usually more common than being lucky enough to find a silly mech pilot who stands still in a fight) you're more than likely going to have that spread to a MINIMUM of 2 areas
That great big old .33 damage now becomes .165 damage to two separate locations.

Before anyone calls lasers "op" they really need to start breaking stuff like this down.

The math for damage, heat, duration, cooldown, etc. does not take into account the practical application of the weapon. If you're basing your opinion of lasers based on base stats, your'e doing it wrong.


Check the math. 9 damage over 1 second is 9 damage per second. So a .3 second window means you did about 2.8ish damage.

#69 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:04 AM

View PostSandpit, on 02 December 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:



<problem with increasing cooldown>




Ok. Point taken.

Now, what do you think about including all fired lasers in the Ghost Heat mechanic?

#70 Lugh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Widow Maker
  • The Widow Maker
  • 3,910 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:08 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

Will it be a new meta tho? Posted Image

Three years in the is no NEW meta. We've seen it all before. The only way there could be a NEW meta would be if they did something cra cra like make MGs super excellent and buffed flamers to doing acutual damage...

View PostMystere, on 02 December 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:


Ok. Point taken.

Now, what do you think about including all fired lasers in the Ghost Heat mechanic?

The ghost heat mechanic is stupid. go to the TT heatscale (30)with appropriate penalties, institute true Dubs and true singles per TT. Allow heat neutrality and let the rest of it get sorted on the battlefield.

#71 Mister Blastman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 8,444 posts
  • LocationIn my Mech (Atlanta, GA)

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:11 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 02 December 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:


I typically try to get longer range sight-lines so I can take advantage of the Clan laser ranges and then just win trades while my team does whatever they do. I just make sure to stay with them and make sure that my shots are suppressing them from getting good shots on my team. Sometimes **** hits the fan though, it is the public queue after all. JJs can help by using elevation to get better shots. ECM can help by concealing the dorito. Hellbringer took a hit with the Gauss nerf though. Guess it can only laser vomit now. Its a shame that while some consider the Gauss nerf necessary, it reduced the amount of viable builds.


Yeah the long range game is where Clan is good at for sure and should be per the spirit of the game. Except the Summoner--it can tank. It just doesn't have the hardpoints to be effective after losing arms.

I think it is stylistic. Some folks love Stalkers--they like to poke, while others like to be a big huggy bear with rocket firsts and saw blade yo-yo wielding ninjas up close with a giant porkchop in their mouth.

These heat changes are I think in the long run going to need to be reverted for Clan 'mechs as they were hot enough as it was--now when the face tank inner sphere monsters get in close the clanners aren't going to be able to do much about it unless they switch some of their weapons over to autocannons or SRMs (if the hitreg issues are fixed).

#72 Ultimax

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 6,979 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:11 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

First of all, I have to say, I'm seeing a lot of positive stuff going on after this patch. Specifically, I'm seeing a lot of people trying out new builds. I'm seeing Stalkers actually combine missiles and lasers, like they did in BT lore, for the first time since 2013. I'm seeing people use AC2s, AC5s and AC10s. I'm seeing Griffins and Centurions and Kintaros armed with SRMs again.

But I just had a few matches with my carry-harder laservomit mechs (Nova, Warhawk, Black Knight), and... well, I still got higher scores than with any other mech that I've tried out (except for my 4xLRM15+A Awesome, which is still going strong).

I'm kind of wondering if, when the dust settles and everyone's had a bit of fun with their 2xAC2 Cicadas, 3xAC5 Marauders and SRM Catapults... is good old fashioned laservomit still going to dominate until PGI finds a replacement for ghost range? "Now with 90% less gauss rifles"?



What you are seeing is people thinking that a few quirks somehow change how the entire game is played.


People who spend all day dreaming of AC 2 boats or how many LRMs they and their buddies can stuff onto mechs and take advantage of weaker ECM.


When it dies down, you'll see things take shape around doing the most amount of damage to a target in the least amount of exposure time based on which ever builds are most efficient at that, that also have good mount locations & hitboxes. Which is, and has been, the defining meta of this game regardless of which weapons and builds are fulfilling that need.


They'll be a few special cases who have some standout quirk with X or Y weapon, but most quirks got genericized so there is much less of that this time around.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 December 2015 - 10:12 AM.


#73 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:44 AM

View PostJman5, on 02 December 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I feel like everyone forgets that Clan lasers do significantly more damage than their IS peers. A clan ER ML does 40% more damage than an IS ML.

...
As if 40% MORE damage and a LONGER burn time some how did NOT make sense. Put the lasers on an enemy 'mech for the same duration as an IS laser lasts, I'll bet you'll find the damage matches. That extra length in time allows for the additional damage pulses.

But... Logic be damned, the EZ-mode 'mechs must absolutely fire faster than IS 'mechs for... REASONS.

#74 Jun Watarase

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,504 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:45 AM

Posted Image

Clan lasers are totally better....if you don't factor in some of the hilarious quirks, which is like trying to compare clan mechs with IS ones by only looking at the bad clan mechs.

#75 Sandpit

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 17,419 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationArkansas

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:49 AM

View PostDino Might, on 02 December 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:


Check the math. 9 damage over 1 second is 9 damage per second. So a .3 second window means you did about 2.8ish damage.

I think I misplaced a decimal. so it would be 1.1, not .11
so yes, 3 damage (ish)
Point still stands though. That mechanic is fundamental in understanding lasers and required as a factor in their balancing process.

View PostMystere, on 02 December 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:


Ok. Point taken.

Now, what do you think about including all fired lasers in the Ghost Heat mechanic?

I'm not sure...
I think a better way would be classify them together according to size.
LPL
ER LL
LL
would share

MPL
ML
ER ML
would share

something like that, but it makes no sense to me that it would click off ghost heat if you fire off 2 LLs and an ML.

#76 Kraftwerkedup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 504 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:51 AM

Call me crazy but it seems exactly the same as before the patch.

Other than the useless video screens, new marauder mechs everywhere, and the Atlas being a little beefy....it all seems exactly the same.

#77 Sandpit

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 17,419 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationArkansas

Posted 02 December 2015 - 11:08 AM

View PostKraftwerkedup, on 02 December 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Call me crazy but it seems exactly the same as before the patch.

Other than the useless video screens, new marauder mechs everywhere, and the Atlas being a little beefy....it all seems exactly the same.

When things are fairly well balanced, that's usually the sign of a decent patch :P

#78 Mighty Wings

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 44 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 11:11 AM

Took a break from playing the Marauder and testing out griffin/atlas played some games on my warhawk in solo queue.

1 Gauss/2 LP/3 meds build. Clan weapons laser vomit w or w/o gauss still seem like the meta to me. Granted was only a small sample size but didn't feel much different. Only noticeable thing was the torso twisting nerf made it more difficult to kill a locust at close range. Usually not a problem to track it with laser vomit, shot at it 3 times and didn't kill it and needed a teammate to help me out.

If anything games are easier right now with laser vomit (in solo queue at least) because so many AC/5s marauders running around (with or without ppcs). SRMs brawlers still too easy to pick off before they close on you.

For solo queue at least, lasers/gauss still seem like the meta. More interesting to see how group queue shapes out with coordinated efforts.

#79 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 02 December 2015 - 11:17 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 02 December 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Posted Image

Clan lasers are totally better....if you don't factor in some of the hilarious quirks, which is like trying to compare clan mechs with IS ones by only looking at the bad clan mechs.
There was a very FEW IS 'mechs that were quirked to have certain weapon systems slightly longer ranged than their Clan counterparts, HOWEVER, they still hit for less damage, generally weighed more and required more crit slots than the Clan version.

Most other quirks only partially closed the gap between the weapons ranges, but for the most part (again baring those too few IS 'mechs with exceptional quirks) the Clan version STILL hit from longer range and harder than the IS version.

There is no leg to stand on with this argument.

Effectively OUT OF THE GATE, Clan weapons were quirked, and the IS receiving SOME quirks only closed a bit of the gap, it did NOT make the IS "equal", nor even "OP".

#80 Sandpit

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 17,419 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationArkansas

Posted 02 December 2015 - 11:29 AM

ok so i have to ask, is all the laser vomit talk specifically clans?





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users