130 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

Ductus Hase, on 28 March 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Davion isn´t weaker than Marik or Liao.
Actually Davion scored as high as Marik and Liao combined during the last two TUKs.

Unfortunately, recent events would do little to sway the opinions of some...

[Podex]

Wazan...never forget.

Best gaming experience ever.

[MischiefSC]

Podex, on 28 March 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Wazan...never forget.

Best gaming experience ever.

People think we loved Wazan because it was 'hardcore'.

Nope.

Loved it because it was good matches and almost universally people were good sports. We were all there to have fun.

Also we were all way less bitter and more excited over all. 'It was a more innocent time' perhaps.

Was good times.

[Podex]

MischiefSC, on 28 March 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

People think we loved Wazan because it was 'hardcore'.

Nope.

Loved it because it was good matches and almost universally people were good sports. We were all there to have fun.

Also we were all way less bitter and more excited over all. 'It was a more innocent time' perhaps.

Was good times.

It was definitely one of those "had to be there" things. We ran against the same people over and over again. Even matches, loads of respect. I don't think anyone really cared who won, we all just wanted to go back in and do it all over again. That's the way this game should be.

[Javin]

Still having good fights with Marik.

[Chef Kerensky]

Cathy, on 26 December 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Exceptionally good Emblem, and one that almost made me throw in with Draconis Combine, however I could never be one
because, while Federated Suns are Americanised Camelot and King Arthur, the DC are even worse, Americanised, Space Bushido.

While the Space ninja are one of only two houses staying true to the original 1980's creations, the other being Marik, I just couldn't

I have no idea how you could interpret a ridiculous 1980s caricature of fascist, feudalist Japan as anything other than really cool

[Tarogato]

Ductus Hase, on 28 March 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Davion isn´t weaker than Marik or Liao.
Actually Davion scored as high as Marik and Liao combined during the last two TUKs.

The Tukayyid scores were heavily dictated by population count.

https://docs.google....#gid=1467981520

Win count:
Davion: #7
Liao: #9
Marik: #10

Population count:
Davion: #7
Marik: #9
Liao: #10

(Marik+Liao = 686 total .... Davion alone = 627)




... and now the stuff that actually matters...

Win/Loss ratio:
Liao: #7
Davion: #9
Marik: #10

Average score per player per match:
Liao: #7
Davion: #9
Marik: #10

---

Mediocre.

[MovinTarget]

Tarogato, on 31 March 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

The Tukayyid scores were heavily dictated by population count.

https://docs.google....#gid=1467981520

Win count:
Davion: #7
Liao: #9
Marik: #10

Population count:
Davion: #7
Marik: #9
Liao: #10

(Marik+Liao = 686 total .... Davion alone = 627)




... and now the stuff that actually matters...

Win/Loss ratio:
Liao: #7
Davion: #9
Marik: #10

Average score per player per match:
Liao: #7
Davion: #9
Marik: #10

---

Mediocre.

I think the stats really can't paint an accurate picture either way, at least not with such simplified stats... At least not in any way that good Davion players should take offense. Perhaps Davion just had more pugs than it could manage and the cat-herding overwhelmed us.

For all we know, if you were to cut out players below some arbitrary-yet-fair threshold for all three factions, they may have fairly comparable numbers for all we know. Unfortunately, there is no way to cut out "garbage players" in each faction so we are left with a lot of conjecture.

All I'm saying is that all you can say is that with more players, Davion was still around the performance level of Liao and Marik. From there, a book could be written on the "why"... if we had all the stats...

[Tarogato]

MovinTarget, on 31 March 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

I think the stats really can't paint an accurate picture either way, at least not with such simplified stats... At least not in any way that good Davion players should take offense. Perhaps Davion just had more pugs than it could manage and the cat-herding overwhelmed us.

For all we know, if you were to cut out players below some arbitrary-yet-fair threshold for all three factions, they may have fairly comparable numbers for all we know. Unfortunately, there is no way to cut out "garbage players" in each faction so we are left with a lot of conjecture.

All I'm saying is that all you can say is that with more players, Davion was still around the performance level of Liao and Marik. From there, a book could be written on the "why"... if we had all the stats...

Those stats are taken from the top 25 most-winning units per faction, so there are no unitless pugs included. Unless you're trying to say that some of the top 25 davion units are "garbage players".

Edited by Tarogato, 31 March 2016 - 02:09 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Probably few factions could field 25 units that were garbageless...

[MovinTarget]

...especially the southern houses...

I mean, anyone who thinks that unit tag = superior play hasn't gotten out much.

Know lots of ronin that are excellent players.
Know lots of units that are more about fun and goofing off than comp-level performance.

There are units that would pull in ronin for the tuk events just hoping to boost their numbers and ronin looking to qualify for swag that join units for such events.

Top 25 units per faction? I haven't checked but it would be interesting to see:
1) how many total units participated per faction.
2) how many players participated per faction and how many of those were in the top 25 units.

Also note that for better or worse, davion had no "bump" from a notable metc unit (most other factions have at least one if not more in their top five), Liao had SMC at their #3. I don't enough about the Marik units to identify mercs, but my point is this:

The Tuk I & II stats would look different if it ignored yhe merc units and *perhaps* bring davions stats up a bit and drop others a bit.

Edited by MovinTarget, 31 March 2016 - 04:34 PM.

[slide]

With the exception of the top 5 units (maybe) in each faction the Tuk Win/loss stats for units are meaningless as many small or relatively inactive units couldn't field 12 people even if they wanted to.

I can tell you that even though ARMD finished 9th for Davion, we only dropped as a 12 for perhaps 4 matches over the entire event. All the other results would have been affected by who and how many other groups/pugs we teamed up with. I personally dropped 30-40 matches over that event and I would have spent at least 60% of my time dropping with a majority of Hhod or RRB members on my team(s).

The only thing you can guess from those stats is that the "winningest" teams have a higher level of coordination/active players

[Chef Kerensky]

MovinTarget, on 31 March 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Probably few factions could field 25 units that were garbageless...

It was very doable when more people actually played

[MischiefSC]

I still like CW way more than QP.

However I struggle to enjoy CW more than punching Dinosaurs or rebuilding bombed out boston, or even surviving underwater after my mining ship crashed.

[Richter Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 24 December 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

The problem then becomes that without a reset you'll end up with a steady migration that leaves the map utterly broken. Besides, there were big changes in the CW mechanics (like 1 world a day switching to 3, etc) that left it all pretty unbalanced.

The map will always need a reset periodically. Hopefully ever 24 months or the like when CW is 'finished'.

LOL. When CW is finished.

Sorry. Laughed so hard I lost my choo-choo.

Anyway. Map reset sucks only because CW is so utterly pointless that a vague sense of inertia and sunk cost fallacy was the closest thing to 'feeling worthwhile' that you could get. That's a special sort of sad all its own.

An occasional seasonal reset makes sense, someone can be declared a winner and a round two can start, but there was no rhyme, reason or planning ahead involved in any of the map resets that have already happened. Add in the fact that after CW1 it became 3 times as hard (read: boring) to take a planet and a lot of units quit, or in our case, focused on just finding matches and punching people in the mouth rather than nabbing planet tags.

I've made countless posts about how simplifying the node system to a system where winning a match always gets you a node and losing a match always loses you a node, and sticking around for a ghost drop always takes a node, and how this would simultaneously make cappinga planets faster and blunt the advantage larger units had in CW1 by requiring them to actually win mtches to make progress rather than getting 4 ghost drops on a planet that has 4 or 5 teams defending by virtue of their size alone, but it's clear PGI isn't willing to listen to sense or reason on this issue.

Edited by Richter Kerensky, 01 April 2016 - 06:46 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Richter Kerensky, on 01 April 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

An occasional seasonal reset makes sense, someone can be declared a winner and a round two can start, but there was no rhyme, reason or planning ahead involved in any of the map resets that have already happened. Add in the fact that after CW1 it became 3 times as hard (read: boring) to take a planet and a lot of units quit, or in our case, focused on just finding matches and punching people in the mouth rather than nabbing planet tags.

I've made countless posts about how simplifying the node system to a system where winning a match always gets you a node and losing a match always loses you a node, and sticking around for a ghost drop always takes a node, and how this would simultaneously make cappinga planets faster and blunt the advantage larger units had in CW1 by requiring them to actually win mtches to make progress rather than getting 4 ghost drops on a planet that has 4 or 5 teams defending by virtue of their size alone, but it's clear PGI isn't willing to listen to sense or reason on this issue.

All true.

1 planet per front. If attacker wins over 50% next planet is a defenders planet next phase. If defender wins next planet is an attacker planet and attacker/defender flip roles.

Cuts lanes in half, removes the "units attack pugs defend " crap, slows rate of world flipping, largely eliminates ghost drops because defending is what gets you an attack lane next phase. If worlds have MC value it helps prevent snaking tags.

Second, let people go loyalist but take "allied deployment" contracts. So NKVA wipes out CSJ, has only quiet fronts. Takes a 2 week deployment to FRR. They stay Kurita, earn Kurita ) LP but are based out of and use FRR lanes for 2 weeks and would make CW groups with FRR deployed units.

So populations can shift to active fronts without throwing out faction identity.

Boom. Better game.

[Richter Kerensky]

Unfortunately I think PGI is going to have a hard time making people come back after this long.

Or fortunately, depending on how you look at it.

[MischiefSC]

Richter Kerensky, on 01 April 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:

Unfortunately I think PGI is going to have a hard time making people come back after this long.

Or fortunately, depending on how you look at it.

Oh, they'll show up. We ***** and we complain but we buy the mech packs. We'll come back if it doesn't suck.

[Vaegun Hiryi]

Dawnstealer, on 02 December 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Far, far back in days of yore, in the first round of CW, when all was new and bright, House Davion ruled the roost. They blew through House Liao and there was talk about what would happen when a House was down to its last world (although they weren't to that point yet). They took huge bites out of Kurita's southern border. They even started taking swipes at Marik and, yes, Steiner.

CW was far more populated in those days and unfortunately for Davion, a couple things happened: the big merc units left for more lucrative contracts; people wanted to get in on the Clan Onslaught tearing its way through the FRR, Steiner, and Kurita; and the other factions kind of got tired of Davion's attacks and responded.

This happened at a bad time for Davion: Liao was really underpopulated in those days and there's only so many times you can ghost-drop a planet away before it becomes boring; players left CW; the huge units that Davion had also depopulated.

So what happened is that everyone started tearing into Davion just as they lost their population, most experienced units, and people started giving up on the Clan front.

The bad blood stuck around, the population didn't come back, annnnnnnnd that brings us to now.

Honestly, turn-key warfare politics like this is what made BattleTech interesting. I'm glad that it's back with force in MechWarrior Online!

[R3av3r]

MischiefSC, on 01 April 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

All true.

1 planet per front. If attacker wins over 50% next planet is a defenders planet next phase. If defender wins next planet is an attacker planet and attacker/defender flip roles.

Cuts lanes in half, removes the "units attack pugs defend " crap, slows rate of world flipping, largely eliminates ghost drops because defending is what gets you an attack lane next phase. If worlds have MC value it helps prevent snaking tags.

Second, let people go loyalist but take "allied deployment" contracts. So NKVA wipes out CSJ, has only quiet fronts. Takes a 2 week deployment to FRR. They stay Kurita, earn Kurita ) LP but are based out of and use FRR lanes for 2 weeks and would make CW groups with FRR deployed units.

So populations can shift to active fronts without throwing out faction identity.

Boom. Better game.

This.