215 replies to this topic

[Chrome Magnus]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 December 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Now, for those IS purists who will never admit that an IS mech would ever be OP, I'd like you to explain why:

1. If the BJ-1X is NOT OP, then why do I see so many competitive players running this mech so often?
2. If the BJ-1X is NOT OP, then why were there SIX of them on my team last night?
3. If the BJ-1X is NOT OP, then why is my non-elited BJ-1X giving me better games, higher damage, more kills, and longer survivability, than my fully mastered SCRs?

lol

You previously state that it only just became OP with the last patch and then pretend like that many people have had a chance to determine it is the most powerful mech in the game after just (a few hours really) one day. Oh and then there's the fact I don't see anything like what you're claiming.

[sycocys]

FupDup, on 03 December 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

I think that no BJ (or Vindi for that matter) should have an engine cap below 250, because TruDubs.

I can't argue with that, was just pointing out that the reason the 1X is so much better is that it moves 25kph faster than the rest of the lot. It makes a ridiculous difference in avoiding damage with that small frame.

Edited by sycocys, 03 December 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[Deathlike]

sycocys, on 03 December 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

I can't argue with that, was just pointing out that the reason the 1X is so much better is that is move 25kph faster than the rest of the lot. It makes a ridiculous difference in avoiding damage with that small frame.

Unlike many mechs... it's arguably scaled correctly.

[El Bandito]

sycocys, on 03 December 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

What would have made more sense is simply not letting it stuff an xl295 in while the rest fit 235. Lowering those quirks will only slow it down mildly, it will still be a 114kph 8ML ninja. No duration will actually help it manage its heat better even with the +10 debuff to cooling.

The duration quirk is what allowed the little monster to be so lethal at trades. Good pilots never had heat management issues with it in the first place. It will still be a good mech, but the nerfs were harsher than I expected.

[CycKath]

Heh... the 1X is the last BJ I had to buy to have the full set, was planning to buy it after I finished the Marauders. Ah well.

[Felicitatem Parco]

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

The duration quirk is what allowed the little monster to be so lethal at trades. Good pilots never had heat management issues with it in the first place. It will still be a good mech, but the nerfs were harsher than I expected.

Well, is it really a nerf, or a rollback of Buffs...?

I consider any quirk reduction as more of a buff rollback than an actual nerf. I learned to play this game before quirks. I see all positive quirks as Buffs, and only a negative quirk value would be a nerf.

I used to think that quirk rollbacks were nerfs. Especially when they took away the blackjack's AC/5 cooldown quirks that made it competitive. Nowadays, though, I just see quirks as admissions of complacency on a design-front since they chose to stick with BattleTech IP designs instead of re-making the Mechs as proper combat-capable designs.

Really, what can you do to bring the Awesome Mech chassis platform up to par with a Stalker design without magical quirks?

[sycocys]

It wasn't even 2/10ths of a second difference for its mainstay ML. Granted it does play a factor, and more so if its elite vs elite player - but it really wasn't all that insane. It does add up after cycles, I 100% agree there but for the vast majority I would say that the duration wasn't playing as big of a role as its insane mobility.

Its size (most Lights are as big as it) combined with the fact that the field is filled with more recognizably dangerous mechs that are easy to hide behind/alongside has always played to this variants advantage.

Now if it were the same speed + mobility of the rest of the mechs rather than being a ninja it could live with the same quirk levels the rest get and be pretty well the same off.

-- and don't get me wrong, I'm not at all mad about it being debuffed. I'll still use it just fine because its basically an upgraded Death's Knell with better weapon placement. I just think if you wanted it to be in-line with the rest it would have made more sense to slow it down because of the way the engine size influences the rest of its mobility.

Edited by sycocys, 03 December 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[SaltBeef]

It will take at least a year before it gets the nerf hammer took that long for the firestarters and the Victor was the PPC ac5 pop tart king for a very long time. The Arctic Cheetah was smack down a week after it's release date. TDR was meta monster of CW for a year before getting nerfed.

Clans rapid response from devs
IS let them be for 6 months to a year

BALANCE don't yah know!

[Monkey Lover]

Prosperity Park, on 03 December 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

Well, is it really a nerf, or a rollback of Buffs...?

I consider any quirk reduction as more of a buff rollback than an actual nerf. I learned to play this game before quirks. I see all positive quirks as Buffs, and only a negative quirk value would be a nerf.

I used to think that quirk rollbacks were nerfs. Especially when they took away the blackjack's AC/5 cooldown quirks that made it competitive. Nowadays, though, I just see quirks as admissions of complacency on a design-front since they chose to stick with BattleTech IP designs instead of re-making the Mechs as proper combat-capable designs.

Really, what can you do to bring the Awesome Mech chassis platform up to par with a Stalker design without magical quirks?

I still dont see how the quirk pass this time was a real "buff". It was more of a trade off.
On a medium laser build they
2.5% cooldown nerf
5% duration nerf
5% heat nerf
replaced with
armor buff

Now with hotfix its
2.5% cooldown nerf
10% range nerf
20% duration nerf
10% heat nerf

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 December 2015 - 09:02 PM.

[Eboli]

Earlier this year when I played CW I ran two of them in my deck and was happy with the results and its capabilities. If PGI have overbuffed them I feel sorry because PGI will probably make it worse than before when they decide "to fix it".

Edited by Eboli, 03 December 2015 - 08:59 PM.

[nitra]

had to recheck to date to make sure this was not a necro post ..

just got done with giving a the bj1-x a thorough going over ...

and no ... it is not op.. it does last i lil longer in a brawl so it may can get a extra shot off before going down.

but nope still falls apart under pressure arms which are critical to this mech are still easily destroyed.


it is still team dependent in order to be successful it is not going to stop 2 or 3 mechs from advancing .

but at least now it will it hurt one of them, and maybe take one out if the pilot is lucky or good enough to keep his fire power focused.


actually i think it is now on par with most other mechs on the battlefield. about time too. there may have been a time when the bjx was a bit op but that time has long since past.


it is now a formidable medium mech to be respected when confronted. but an assault or even a heavy pilot and, even some medium pilots still hold the advantage when dealing with the bj-1x

Edited by nitra, 03 December 2015 - 08:59 PM.

[Aresye]

SaltBeef, on 03 December 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

It will take at least a year before it gets the nerf hammer took that long for the firestarters and the Victor was the PPC ac5 pop tart king for a very long time. The Arctic Cheetah was smack down a week after it's release date. TDR was meta monster of CW for a year before getting nerfed.

Clans rapid response from devs
IS let them be for 6 months to a year

BALANCE don't yah know!

Check the front page dude. lol
Yeah, that sure took a year.

[El Bandito]

Prosperity Park, on 03 December 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

Really, what can you do to bring the Awesome Mech chassis platform up to par with a Stalker design without magical quirks?

1. Rescaling--which the Awesome will receive next year.

2. Better PPCs.

3. Most importantly:


Stalkers were never meant to mount PPCs in the first place. It was Awesome's job.

Monkey Lover, on 03 December 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

I still dont see how the quirk pass this time was a real "buff". It was more of a trade off.
On a medium laser build they
2.5% cooldown nerf
5% duration nerf
5% heat nerf
replaced with
armor buff

Now with hotfix its
2.5% cooldown nerf
10% range nerf
20% duration nerf
10% heat nerf

This.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 December 2015 - 09:28 PM.

[nitra]

well just got done with some more testing.... maybe the bj x is op. was on tera therma and using heat vision .

couldn't see crap every thing was white ... only thing i could shoot at was red squares and hope my team new where they were going ...


after some fumbling around i finally found some terrain i could successfully navigate unfortunately for some reason my legs started taking quite a bit of damage. so had to get out of that place and back into the white ...

finally found some red squares to shoot after following the green triangles on the screen in the end .. our team lost but my black jack scored 281 damage no kills but at least i damaged something and only 25 of that was team damage.


so their could be some truth that the bjx is op i mean a completely blind bj spewing out that much damage how could it not be ??

[YueFei]

FupDup, on 03 December 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

That's why I think the interchassis balance should be the focus instead of trying to limit the mechs people can use, so that there would be no reason for the game to say "Oh, you can't use that mech because we're not gonna let you, you hit the limit."

Maybe it shouldn't be based on tonnage limits or weight class restrictions?

I still don't buy the "X tons heavier" argument because as said earlier, it implies a direct upgrade path. It's one of the parts that I hate the most about the BT construction system, that with all other variables being equal (e.g. tech, loadout/role, etc.) then the heavier mech is the better mech period.

I think the problem is the balance paradigm they think they're trying to adhere to, which is:
Assault > Heavy > Medium > Light > Assault.

Very very few people stop to think that even if 1 Light always beats 1 Assault, it falls apart as soon as you get into team vs team. 12 Assaults covering blindspots against 12 Lights? Sorry Lights!

I think maybe a more interesting balance paradigm to use would be something like:

• Brawler Assault > Long Range Assault (requires enough hitpoints to close in through long range fire)
  
• Long Range Heavy > Brawler Assault (the faster Heavy can zone using greater speed and range)
  
• Long Range Heavy < Long Range Assault (both have similar range, Assault has more armor and firepower)
  
• Brawler Heavy > Long Range Heavy
  
• Long Range Medium > Brawler Heavy
  
• Brawler Medium > Long Range Medium
  
• Long Range Light > Brawler Medium
  
• Brawler Light > Long Range Light

etc....


The idea here is that it's a combination of weight class / load-out that gives situational advantages.

That helps break-apart the possibility of stacking a drop deck all one way and utterly dominating a match. You could setup nothing but long-range mechs, and the other team could push in with brawlers of the same weight class and survive long enough to close in and win. But a team can't stack with nothing but big brawlers, because if they do, the other team could bring a handful of lighter-weight long-range mechs and zone them to death while their own big guns play keep away until the enemy's big brawlers are sufficiently weakened.

And yet, a team couldn't just stack lighter-weight long-range mechs because another team could just stack lighter-weight brawler mechs and run them down and crush them.

And round and round we go.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think it has a good chance of forcing diverse team compositions.

Edited by YueFei, 03 December 2015 - 11:18 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

BJ-1X
Energy Range Quirk has been decreased to +10%.
Laser Duration Quirk has been removed.
Energy Heat Gen Quirk has been decreased to -10%.

Oh man, this is some major nerfage on BJ-1X's offense. Good thing I never quirk chase and get burned by the nerf hammer.

BJ-1X was more than serviceable before Clans. It was more than serviceable post-Clans, pre-quirks. It will still be better than it was during either of those two periods.

[sceii]

Just before the patch BJ-1X was the worst mech to fight with(worse then thuds), after patch it's even better.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 December 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

It was more than serviceable post-Clans, pre-quirks.

Lies. BJs pre-quirks were laughably bad vs. Wave 1 Clan mechs. Back then Clan lasers were at their strongest state, and IS lasers were pitiful in comparison.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 December 2015 - 12:18 AM.

[Sarlic]

Mcgral18, on 03 December 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

I sent a PM to Tina asking about the balance process in October...she hasn't looked at it yet.
Sent one to Paul last month as well...same deal


Asked Russ on Twitter...silence.



*sigh* I guess we'll never find out how balance plans and changes are thought up.

The zero interaction and connection with the Community is incredible frustating. The problem is that most people on Twitter actually contributes to the very same problem by only using it and tweeting stuff to CEO and keeping things in stance.

I can't think of any game in my history (set the current aside for a moment) how disconnected the gamestudio is with their Community.

And one thing that bugs me is that's only practically on guy behind the steering wheel. If we look at our lead designer: it's even worse. All these years he only posts when he feels it's neccesary. A freaking lead designer with zero, nada, nope and nothing communication with a triple A rated game. Can you believe that?



You see this is not a bash or anything but his communication with the Community and his 3 years and on stagnant balance attempts makes me wonder what he's doing all day.

As matter of fact: PGI likes to pick some pasta out put their own balance sauce on it while they proceed to battle with the cheese for the next few years. It's always the players who have to throw them a bone, give them a hindsight and more. And a good reason why i am being relieved of leaving the game in about a few days because of the lack of experience and the will to listen to basic fundenmentals flaws of the game. But more of the current freemium concept and our leaddesigner who pulls things from a 'can of easy idea's'. I mean who wants to support guys who came up with a laser-lock-nerf in the first place? Gosh, really? It doesnt matter if the idea is canned or not. It's the thoughts behind it. What else will bring the future?

Because if any what they're good at is releasing good looking conceptart and mechs in a shallow base game of the Mechwarrior series while rest around is minimum effort/viable product.

Edited by Sarlic, 04 December 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[William Mountbank]

Are we actually hating on Blackjacks now?