160 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Padre Balistique, on 20 December 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

It is literally impossible for IS to do the same tactic against clans.

I found your mistake.

[Ano]

Digging back a little...

Alteran, on 20 December 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

This mismashing of tech and quirks have destroyed anything that we've played prior in MW 1-4. In MWO, there will always be a Meta. There will always be a favored mech, like the Timberwolf. PGI can nerf the crap out of the TBR all they want and in the end people will still run it regardless. PGI can quirk the Summoner as much as they want and people will still refuse to run it. If PGI made IS tech and vice versa Clan tech available to both sides right now for CW, many Clan units would be running IS meta mechs to compete.

I didn't play a *lot* of MW4 online, but I do remember cERLL Nova Cats being pretty vicious on the open servers (even the ones not running NHUA) and a lot of poptarting. Various leagues had different construction rulesets they'd determined were balanced, but that's a different thing. MW4 also allowed mixtech (again, different servers/leagues had rulesets for that sort of stuff, as I remember) and I don't remember too many compelling reasons not to put clantech on IS chassis.

EVERY online PvP game has a meta, if there are more than two people playing it -- people will always look for the "best", and there'll always be a "best" when the different options are mechanically different (vs. cosmetic reskins). You're right that some people would continue playing their Timbers even if they were the *worst* performing mech, because they love the chassis, but that's not related to balance, and it's true of every chassis/build/whatever. If for whatever reason the TBR was significantly nerfed, and the Summoner significantly buffed, then the players who play the TBR for it's power would absolutely switch to the Summoner.

Alteran, on 20 December 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

So to be honest, am I as a paying customer, who purchased the three different Clan Wave packs unhappy? Straight up, yes. Did I expect the Clan units to just roll over the IS units? Honestly, no. I expected PGI to implement in CW a system to balance out the technology differences with tonnage and number limits, using a batchall system for Clan units to bring about the balance that the system would need. 5-7 mixed Clan tonnage mechs vs 10-12 mixed tonnage IS mechs was what I expected.

You definitely have my sympathy here, but I don't know where you got the idea that PGI were going to use asymmetric team sizes and some implementation of batchall as the mechanism for balancing IS/Clan. I'm not a founder and I wasn't here in beta, so clearly there's stuff I could have missed, but all of the stuff I *have* seen has been "no, not happening, no plans for that".

I don't think the asymmetric team size approach makes sense when each player controls a single mech. It just means one side has to volunteer to take the "bad" mechs (a tough sell to anyone not deeply immersed in battletech lore and with a deep love of the IS) and requires that side to be better co-ordinated to make use of their numbers advantage.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 20 December 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

I want them to bother with asymmetrical balance because it pitches its tent in a fair middle ground between fun balance and lore, not forgoing one for the sake of the other.

Alteran, on 20 December 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

I believe that if you are going to 'tweak' Lore, then the Lore is lost. Call me a purest, but that is my POV.

Different-but-roughly-equal-in-overall-power isn't easy, but it's way more interesting than "the-same-but-different-colours", whether you're a btech lorehound or just someone who liked the look of the mech models. If you *are* a btech lorehound, I can't see how "using the lore as a starting point and then adjusting for the realities of an online PVP game" is worse than "screw the lore, just make everything the same", even if the adjustments are significant.

[Vermaxx]

They can't figure out a way to get the system to reliably drop 12 on one 10 on the other, or any other uneven amount. It was hard coded to do even teams. It would also ALWAYS force every match to be IS/IS or IS/Clan, with NO MIXING. This would essentially make two player pools - the guys in the IS mechs and guys in Clan, and the game would have to properly combine them into matches. This is the other problem - the matchmaker is generally terrible and defaults to 'anything goes' very quickly if wait times increase. I don't think there are enough patient players to make this work.

From a sales standpoint it also doesn't help to have one side drastically more powerful but limited in numbers. Some players won't buy anything from one side or the other, whereas if they're 'sort of equivalent' most players will buy some of each.

MWO made the same classic blunder every game with multiplayer makes - including the uber tech setting. 3025 wasn't really "balanced" since nothing in BT is really "balanced," but everything was on the same power scale. Clan tech was intended to make the tabletop more popular again, add in some flavor, and sell a ton of new models and sourcebooks. It wasn't intended to fix the game, or at least it was a gross mistake if they thought it would.

In short, the game has too small a player base and too many quirky problems to fully realize Clan equipment being the overpowered superior megatech it should be. If they had any kind of back end to CW, it might help balance the Clans in other ways, but it's just a pretty map to brag over.

Multiplayer Battletech 3025 had a better pretty man to brag over, and no ******** Clan/lostech. It also didn't have mech customization. It worked a lot better than MWO does in several respects.

[Jack Spade Ward]

AbyssalTyrant, on 20 December 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Almost every person that has posted in this thread has posted how immensely ****ing stupid your proposed changes are. If anything the one who needs to find a new game is you .

Almost everyone? Are you sure? Did you even read what i posted in the beggining? Please, read it, and then give your opinion

[Jack Spade Ward]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 20 December 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

*shrugs* I pilot Nova's and Summoners and tend to hang around in the quickplay queue. I have a great time there and achieve a solid 500 dmg, give or take 100, per match. When I go to CW I tend to do quite well.

I've never once thought to myself that the IS was overpowered, and havn't recently gotten the impression that clans were OP either. Maybe it's because I don't mess around with meta builds, I build my own stuff.

I'm a part of CWI but I also hang out with Epsi frequently. I'm not sure that's relevant though. I hear the same groaning from some people in CWI about how clan mechs are broken now, just as I hear the opposite groaning from Pugs in PUG drops (Clams OP). What I don't hear near as frequently are calls for lore-based balance. Now there are some who do call for it, I could give you a name off the top of my head, but I'm not going to pull that person into this.

I personally find it unrealistic for PGI, bad for business, and bad for the player-base. I want this game to live on so I can continue to use my Nova for years to come. That's where my motivation stems from, player-base stability. Not perfect fairness, not perfect balance, not trueness to the lore, but a fun environment which will retain players... so I can shoot them >.>

Jack, i was in CWI for quite sometime, kappa galaxy. Dont remember you there... I also run with epsilon
Still, i do know alot of people that will agree with me both in CWI and Epsi.

Still, if PGI wants balance, then pug drops should be only clan vs clan, IS vs IS. CW should be without nerfs or quirks, with the suggestiond i made in the beggining, like more people on IS side, suply bases, etc, it would be very interesting

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

If Clan mechs were cheaper to master, then more in-experienced players would join the Clans. In turn making the game balanced.

Below is a post where which explains why new/inexperienced players join IS first, since Clan mechs are expensive to master. This is due to the limited mech bays new players are given and the fact that Clans mechs are forced to sell engines when a variant is sold.

http://mwomercs.com/...more-to-master/

[Jack Spade Ward]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 20 December 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

I do not mean to sound condescending, but it seems childish to me when people say "either adopt lore balance or just throw away all the lore and make this 'Stompy Robots!'" Is it really more painful that this game be halfway to something you want rather than have it be nothing like what you want? compromise is the intelligent solution in my eyes, and PGI is trying their best to achieve it.

Sorry man, either you go "Lore" or you dont! If PGI decides to use the lore, it cant be only for what they deem fit! Either this game is MechWarrior / Battletech or it isnt! There is no between! If there is, then it is a phalacy to its origins!
PGI's position on this is... confusing... so, in fact, there is no clans nor IS, there is something related to it...

We must accept, either we play MechWarrior, an unbalanced game, where clans do have the better tech, and IS has the best economy, or we play something like a robot piloting game that resembles the so called MechWarrior games, but in fact isnt. If the latter is what people wants, then change the game's name, to "Stompy Robots that look like the Battletech Mechs" or something... Ill be sure to go and search a MechWarrior game instead

Alteran, on 20 December 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

I believe that if you are going to 'tweak' Lore, then the Lore is lost. Call me a purest, but that is my POV. Also like you, who has spent a considerable amount of $$ and time on MWO, I now consider MWO to be, just like you call it, 'Stompy Robots'.

I'll continue to play Stompy Robots, but with the full realization of what it really is and be much more frugal in what I decide to spend my money on.

Well said Alteran

[Alteran]

I was thinking about the whole Lore aspect on my way home from work today. I guess to me, it would be like saying that Space Balls is actually a true Star Wars movie and then argue the aspects of the movie and to why it then is.

[Thunder Child]

Having "Lore-Friendly" Clan mechs (or, spoken truthfully, blatantly OP and broken) in small numbers versus "Lore-Friendly" IS Mechs (so, you're gonna force us to use Stock with no Quirks, right?) in Large numbers will result in one thing, and one thing only.

Everyone will play Clan. Do you know why? Because few people actually enjoy getting their asses handed to them EVERY GAME! Given a choice of a mech that can slaughter multiple opponents, or being one of a dozen guys trying to take down a Titan, most players choose the former. Because most players want the easy win.

Sure, you'll get a few die hards that will stick with there much loved thoroughly beat up underdog favorites. But everyone else will be Clan.

And did you know, that even the BT creators actually admitted that making the Clans OP as all hell was a Huge mistake.

So stop asking for your easy mode beat stick.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Lore play a bigger part in this game. I just don't think Lore should be used for balancing, unless you enforce ALL of lore.
For example, if a Clan mech shot at an opponent that had already been attacked by an Ally, they would not only get NO rewards for the match, but would suffer a 50,000 Cbill penalty.
And for CW matches, not only do Clans use 10 mechs to the IS 12, but they would have to bid away some of their force, or risk losing the match to another team. BUT, a side effect of this, is that CW matchups would probably take an extra hour to organize.


OR, you could just get 21 friends, two of which have Premium time active, go into a private lobby, have 12 of your friends run Stock Inner Sphere mechs, and you and your 9 other friends could use Stock Clan mechs, and then you could have Lore matches to your hearts content.

Edited by Thunder Child, 21 December 2015 - 07:45 PM.

[Russhuster]

your Argumataton would make any sense if clan would be superior, or at least even with IS
But is that so?

just answer this for yourself honestly.

About Lore?
in this mecha-Robot-shooter there is absolutely NOTHING lore conform
lore friendly and turning Lore upside down is not exactly the same.

Yeah, there are a few die hard Clanners,..but i fear the player numbers on lan side will fade further and firther
I would like a lore friendly or even lore based game concept even with zellbrigen included and clan rewards in honor or genetic pool units VS IS rewards in C-bills

but a system with stock builds on the IS side will spoil the fun out of the IS side of the team,..The ability to boost the mech with better reactors better stucture and armor change weapons like old socks that all is part of the fun, and it be granted from the heart

But if you pile one part of a team with Bonusses Quirks and Bonus for the quirks on top
While the second part of the team gets the nerfbat in the Face one time after the other
When known Bugs on Clan side are simply ignored and nothing is done about that for a year ormore C-PPC Bug AC/UAC Bug etc...
What Side do you think will get the fun spoiled out rather quickly

So now i ask you again Why is the Number of Clan players decreasing? When Clan Tech is so over and op
Why are even old clan players using IS mechs by now?

Because all Clan Players do live out theyr masochistic side there?
using the so inferior Is Mechs?

OR Do the de facto numbers simply blow up debatation line because the situation is giving us an invertet image of your Words above.

True Balance is achieved when both sides of the team have fun
When only one side has fun while the other side gets asskick after asskick /~period
The treatet worse players will either change the side or leave the game

a third time i may ask

Why oh why is the Number of Clan players decreasing?

with friendly regards

Rußhuster

Edited by Russhuster, 22 December 2015 - 07:44 AM.

[Thunder Child]

I'm curious about these bugs you mention regarding the Clan ER PPCs and UACs.

Regarding the number of Clan players being smaller than IS. Firstly, new players automatically gravitate towards the Inner Sphere faction due to the perceived cheaper costs (however, anyone with experience knows that IS mechs are just as, if not more, expensive as Clan tech, by the time you fully upgrade them). That alone causes a large imbalance in the Force.
Add to that, there are a lot of old skool players that have their favourite chassis from 3025 that they just can't let go of. I know I am more partial to IS than Clan, though I do love my Kitfox, Nova, Summoner, and Warhawk.

Yes, the Clan nerfs are heavy handed. Not because they are unjustified, regarding the top performers like the Timber and Scrow, but because it adversely affects every other Clan chassis that ISN'T a Timber or Scrow. What would have been better, is if the Tier One Clan mechs received No Quirks whatsoever, and the under-performers got quirked up to their level.

On the flip side, there are a few Inner Sphere chassis who's Quirks are over the top. But the majority of IS mechs struggle to hold their own against the average Clan T1. Not because "Clan Tech OP", but because most IS chassis are just not T1 mechs. Most are lucky if they are T3. And this is due to hardpoint layout, and hitboxes, more than anything else.

The reason I am absolutely and vehemently against giving Clans their "Lore Power" over Inner Sphere, is because this is a PvP game, with each player piloting a single mech. Therefore, balance needs to be a 1 to 1 ratio. If we controlled teams of mechs (like in Mechcommander for example), then sure, have asymmetric teams.
That said, Balance does NOT equal Identical units.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Thunder Child, on 21 December 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Having "Lore-Friendly" Clan mechs (or, spoken truthfully, blatantly OP and broken) in small numbers versus "Lore-Friendly" IS Mechs (so, you're gonna force us to use Stock with no Quirks, right?) in Large numbers will result in one thing, and one thing only.

Everyone will play Clan. Do you know why? Because few people actually enjoy getting their asses handed to them EVERY GAME! Given a choice of a mech that can slaughter multiple opponents, or being one of a dozen guys trying to take down a Titan, most players choose the former. Because most players want the easy win.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Lore play a bigger part in this game. I just don't think Lore should be used for balancing, unless you enforce ALL of lore.
For example, if a Clan mech shot at an opponent that had already been attacked by an Ally, they would not only get NO rewards for the match, but would suffer a 50,000 Cbill penalty.
And for CW matches, not only do Clans use 10 mechs to the IS 12, but they would have to bid away some of their force, or risk losing the match to another team. BUT, a side effect of this, is that CW matchups would probably take an extra hour to organize.

You read it wrongly, i didnt said take all the quirks, but to reduce them to what might be a model's and its variations exclusive, but no super quirks like the thisng are now.
CW with unnerfed clans and no super quirks on IS, with all the suggestions i made, like diferent weapon manufacturers (and those could be used as quirks), resuply bases and the sort to IS, it would make things very nicelly

I too have eard about the developers of Battletech complaining about some stuff, the clan invasion not being one of them. I know that if they could take the dark ages off the lore, they would, even the jihad era. About the clans? Never eard of it... and i have my suspicions if they would, being the clans so popular...

And i do beleive that the bigger teams would stick toghther as a IS faction, not clan, specially the mercs, since the mercs would only do the missions that the factions would give them, so no clan mechs for them...

I beleive that i made the initial post correctly... again, in pug drops, do clan vs clan and IS vs IS only, no unbalance there, problem solved.

[Russhuster]

If just the Newcomers stay at IS side the general prticipant number on the Battle of Tuk2 should rise or be at least as high as Tuk1

But BAttle of Tuk1 app 17000 players
Battle of Tuk2 app 14000 players speakin its own truth no?

consiering that even with the Mercs on Clanside one came almost immediately in a clan drop bit waitet ages with IS
its obvious wos side had less players

Most Clan Nerfs like the riddiculous ghost heat
the stopming of Clan Double heat sinks (Capacity 1.1 )to almost IS single heat sink (capacity 1.0)
or the -20% agility Nerf (Skiltree) for ALL and EVERY Clan chassis did no good esp with the not so tier1 clan mechs
like the direwhale its now so slow even in torsotwist a IS med mech and even a fast havy can run the circle around you
others like energy weighed mechs with a joking low load capacity suffer enormous from the heat nerf

while the IS Mechs get partwise +55% agility quirks, and we need not to spaek about quirkbuckets like the wubbadin or the wubbolts these 55% are found in a highlander for example
so whilst a clan assaultmech what was the slowest mech o the field with 48kph bevore nerf has heatnerfs and -20% agility nerf
the IS assaults that ran about 70kph get +55% quirks i undersand the logic
obviously this is really well considered balance * sarcasm off*

Not every Clan chassis is a Timberwolf but every clan chassis is inflictet by these overal nerfs in addition come the nerfs each chassis gets on top of that there are tier 3 and worse mechs on clan side as well , but who cares its just clan
it is very obvious that PGI s heart beats on Inner Sphere side

to the Bugs

as mentioned by many in several threads Clan PPC tends to fire through target inflicting absolutely NO damage but generating the heat
especially when fired in a pair or shortly after another
UAC Bug has the same result both known for years now .. just nothing is done about it

Maybe Balance does NOT equal identical units but should hold equal chances for both sides of the team
and should holf fun for both sides as well

but when thiscontinues iam curious of the playing numbers with Tuk 3 if the mercs will play Clan then?

[Jack Spade Ward]

Russhuster, on 22 December 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

your Argumataton would make any sense if clan would be superior, or at least even with IS
But is that so?

just answer this for yourself honestly.

About Lore?
in this mecha-Robot-shooter there is absolutely NOTHING lore conform
lore friendly and turning Lore upside down is not exactly the same.

Yeah, there are a few die hard Clanners,..but i fear the player numbers on lan side will fade further and firther
I would like a lore friendly or even lore based game concept even with zellbrigen included and clan rewards in honor or genetic pool units VS IS rewards in C-bills

but a system with stock builds on the IS side will spoil the fun out of the IS side of the team,..The ability to boost the mech with better reactors better stucture and armor change weapons like old socks that all is part of the fun, and it be granted from the heart

But if you pile one part of a team with Bonusses Quirks and Bonus for the quirks on top
While the second part of the team gets the nerfbat in the Face one time after the other
When known Bugs on Clan side are simply ignored and nothing is done about that for a year ormore C-PPC Bug AC/UAC Bug etc...
What Side do you think will get the fun spoiled out rather quickly

So now i ask you again Why is the Number of Clan players decreasing? When Clan Tech is so over and op
Why are even old clan players using IS mechs by now?

Because all Clan Players do live out theyr masochistic side there?
using the so inferior Is Mechs?

OR Do the de facto numbers simply blow up debatation line because the situation is giving us an invertet image of your Words above.

True Balance is achieved when both sides of the team have fun
When only one side has fun while the other side gets asskick after asskick /~period
The treatet worse players will either change the side or leave the game

a third time i may ask

Why oh why is the Number of Clan players decreasing?

with friendly regards

Rußhuster

I know man... i personally, switched to an IS unit. Im tired of getting my *** kicked, time to be on the winning side...

Edited by Spadejack, 22 December 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Thunder Child, on 22 December 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

I'm curious about these bugs you mention regarding the Clan ER PPCs and UACs.

Regarding the number of Clan players being smaller than IS. Firstly, new players automatically gravitate towards the Inner Sphere faction due to the perceived cheaper costs (however, anyone with experience knows that IS mechs are just as, if not more, expensive as Clan tech, by the time you fully upgrade them). That alone causes a large imbalance in the Force.
Add to that, there are a lot of old skool players that have their favourite chassis from 3025 that they just can't let go of. I know I am more partial to IS than Clan, though I do love my Kitfox, Nova, Summoner, and Warhawk.

Yes, the Clan nerfs are heavy handed. Not because they are unjustified, regarding the top performers like the Timber and Scrow, but because it adversely affects every other Clan chassis that ISN'T a Timber or Scrow. What would have been better, is if the Tier One Clan mechs received No Quirks whatsoever, and the under-performers got quirked up to their level.

On the flip side, there are a few Inner Sphere chassis who's Quirks are over the top. But the majority of IS mechs struggle to hold their own against the average Clan T1. Not because "Clan Tech OP", but because most IS chassis are just not T1 mechs. Most are lucky if they are T3. And this is due to hardpoint layout, and hitboxes, more than anything else.

The reason I am absolutely and vehemently against giving Clans their "Lore Power" over Inner Sphere, is because this is a PvP game, with each player piloting a single mech. Therefore, balance needs to be a 1 to 1 ratio. If we controlled teams of mechs (like in Mechcommander for example), then sure, have asymmetric teams.
That said, Balance does NOT equal Identical units.

This is suposed to be a Mechwarrior game, not a "something similar to mechwarrior" and in a Battletech game, you have the natural unbalance, whether you like it or not. Is it a PVP game? Yes, it is, so?
People are so caught to the Clans OP and IS weak that with all the nerfs, clans are so under powered and IS OP, and they still think otherwise...

Again, with all the suggestions i made in the initial post, i answer all of those questions

[Russhuster]

iam a die hard wolf, iam sticking to my fur, even when a quirkhunch or a flea can kill a dire with ease

but i know, many of my old guild did that step as well others left MWO completely

staying a moon howling wolf does not mean iam blind and can not see
so i will continue mooting the deficiencies even when the shitstorm is rolling on me because of that
wolves have a thick fur and are not afraid of some icy winds
*g*

[Jack Spade Ward]

Russhuster, on 22 December 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

iam a die hard wolf, iam sticking to my fur, even when a quirkhunch or a flea can kill a dire with ease

but i know, many of my old guild did that step as well others left MWO completely

staying a moon howling wolf does not mean iam blind and can not see
so i will continue mooting the deficiencies even when the shitstorm is rolling on me because of that
wolves have a thick fur and are not afraid of some icy winds
*g*

I can feel you man, i was wolf for a long, long time... i was even an oathmaster in my galaxy... but enough is enough!
I wasnt even doing CW because it is just ridiculous, doing Pug drops only... i got tired of swiming against the current, so im on an IS unit now. And doing CW is simply amazing now. It kinda makes me angry to the state the game has got to...

Edited by Spadejack, 22 December 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Well, each to their own I suppose. Personally, I would love to see a lot more in this game than just Random Mech Battles. Some Campaign continuity would be nice, with Logisitics and Planet Captures actually being meaningful.

But, if Clans get un-nerfed to their original strength, and IS has to use numbers to wear down their superior Clan opponents, you'll find me in my Smoke Jaguar Warhawk. Because like almost every other player in the game at that point, I will be using what works.

To use an example. If StarCraft were a FPS, and each player had one life, how many people would willingly play Zerglings, when they could be Terran Marines instead.

[Russhuster]

exactly,...and thats why you will see less and less clanover the time,..

[Thunder Child]

Russhuster, on 22 December 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

exactly,...and thats why you will see less and less clanover the time,..

Which is why I have been agreeing that the Clan Nerfs have been over done. I just don't agree that resetting them to their original values is the way to go. The top performers need a few very small buffs. The underdogs need some buffs to bring them up to Timberwolf level.

A few IS Quirkgods need to be toned back. And 90% of the Inner Sphere Chassis need to be brought up to Timberwolf level.

What they should do though, is avoid nerfing Clan Range, or buffing IS Range.

Let the Clans have high heat, high damage over time, longer range weapons, (which are also Lighter, because "Clan-tek").
Give Inner Sphere low heat, high burst damage, shorter range weapons.

Regarding the special case called the Clan Gauss Rifle, just give that b**** an extra 1.5 secs of Cooldown or something, to make up for it being lighter than the IS, without ANY OTHER DRAWBACK.