160 replies to this topic

[Hexenhammer]

First step to 'balance'; Heat penalties.

[Tarl Cabot]

Hexenhammer, on 24 December 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

First step to 'balance'; Heat penalties.

To expand on that, more than one heat penalty threshold.

[Hexenhammer]

Tarl Cabot, on 24 December 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

To expand on that, more than one heat penalty threshold.

To expand not that, slower movement

[Jack Spade Ward]

Dawnstealer, on 23 December 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

What about ripping quirks out and having them be a function of the weapon designer (ie - planet you control). So you want the "quicker cooldown ML?" (or don't want the IS to have it)? Control that world. Want the longer range LPL? Control that world. Etc. Could work and could fix two problems at once.

Also, and I have to say this: "Clan tech / mechs are in most part inferior to IS mechs / tech"

...come on.

Actually, that is one of my sugestions, diferent weapon manufacturers, diferent effects on the same weapon. Read my initial post

[Jack Spade Ward]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 December 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Actually, what I said was not a False Dilemma Spadejack. A Dilemma as it is defined under the circumstances of debate (the dictionary definition has changed a bit, but the term false dilemma was founded upon the basis of Dilemma's original defintion) is a logical problem in which you ONLY have two options and you must pick from those two options. A False Dilemma is when, in a debate, someone presents problem as only having two solutions, when in fact there are more than two solutions.

In my rebuttal to Russhuster I did not present two claims insisting either one or the other was true. In fact the part of my response you are quoting is debunking Russhuster's own false dilemma. Russhuster claimed that either I had to think of MWO as a Mechwarrior game and not find any fun in it, or I MUST think of MWO as a non-Mechwarrior game and find fun. I was pointing out that I went with an option he implied did not exist; that is, I think of MWO as a Mechwarrior game AND have fun.

Also, it is your opinion that MWO is not a Mechwarrior game, SpadeJack, it is not a provable factual statement as one can define for themselves what makes a game a Mechwarrior game.

PS: Sorry about that buddy, that was a bit of a low blow, I shouldn't have pointed it out as it had nothing to do with our debate.

Great, youre good at philosophy, good for you.
But the fact hasnt changed, despite all the game of words you keep on imposing, the game is hugelly unbalanced now leaning towards IS side. And i know, ive joined an IS unit, and the mechs are beasts in the battlefield.
And does my opinion matter? I would like to think so, since ive been playing this game since... ever! Been through all the launches, nerfs buffs ever since closed beta, in the beggining, where we had colisions that would knock you mech down (poor jenners).
My point is, i DO know this game, and all its goods and bads, probably more than most people (not you founder brothers), and if i tell you that i do feel that clan tech is dead and burried, then probably it is.

Jack, ive been talking to alot of people in CWI, and theyactually agree with me. But, the word there is: "we will endure, like we have endured with all those other nerfs".
Thats great, but it will lead to an point where only the hard core unit players will play there. Everyone else will leave.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Great, youre good at philosophy, good for you.

But the fact hasnt changed, despite all the game of words you keep on imposing...

I'm not playing a game of words. I'm simply calling you out when you present your opinion as though it's a fact.

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

...the game is hugelly unbalanced now leaning towards IS side. And i know, ive joined an IS unit, and the mechs are beasts in the battlefield...

Yes I've noticed that IS is currently the meta. Despite the fact that I think you are exaggerating a bit, some buffs to clans might be in order. To me it feels to be about the same level of advantage Clans used to have over IS before the PTS changes rolled through. It's not devastating, but we should always be pursuing better balance.

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

And does my opinion matter?

I never told you your opinion didn't matter. I told you I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I think it doesn't matter.

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

I would like to think so, since ive been playing this game since... ever! Been through all the launches, nerfs buffs ever since closed beta, in the beggining, where we had colisions that would knock you mech down (poor jenners).
My point is, i DO know this game, and all its goods and bads, probably more than most people (not you founder brothers), and if i tell you that i do feel that clan tech is dead and burried, then probably it is.

I think you are probably able to identify that the balance is off, I will give you that Spade, I think you do know that the game is unbalanced. What I don't think you know is the proper solution for fixing the balance issue. I've read your suggestions and do not think it will go over well with the general player base if implemented. I disagree with your suggestions for fixing the balance, and I disagree that clan tech is wholly dead and buried. Just because it isn't meta doesn't mean it's dead.

I hope you can understand that I'm not simply going to take your word for what is good and bad just because you've played the game for a long time and are good at it.

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Jack, ive been talking to alot of people in CWI, and theyactually agree with me. But, the word there is: "we will endure, like we have endured with all those other nerfs".
Thats great, but it will lead to an point where only the hard core unit players will play there. Everyone else will leave.

I've already told you Spade, I don't care any more or less about what someone thinks just because they're in CWI. That has literally ZERO bearing on what I think of their opinion. I hear one of my friends complain about how we need 10 v 12 all the time; it isn't news to me that plenty of people in CWI are dissatisfied with the current system.

If their is imbalance between clan and IS, I haven't felt it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If there is imbalance, then it must be fixed, but it must be fixed with a delicate hand. I do not personally feel there is any need to totally restructure how Clan and IS tech works.

I just hope to god that the balance does not come in the form of clan heat buffs. The clan laser vomit doesn't need to make a comeback, if anything PGI needs to clamp down more on IS laser vomit.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 25 December 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[ToxicSocksWarrior]

Hey,

All Inner Sphere guys!

After reading some of youre replies and suggestions, I came to a conclusion:
(And I choose my words carefully)

You all SUCK, but apparently not as bad as Clan mechs!

It's been emotional,

Tox,

[Russhuster]

excuse me to interfere again, Jack Shayou Walker,
but you notice the dilemma with the words og PGI and delicate handed in one sentence??
My monitor gets serious cracks in displaying this

[Jack Spade Ward]

ToxicSocksWarrior, on 25 December 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Hey,

All Inner Sphere guys!

After reading some of youre replies and suggestions, I came to a conclusion:
(And I choose my words carefully)

You all SUCK, but apparently not as bad as Clan mechs!

It's been emotional,

Tox,

Priceless

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Russhuster, on 25 December 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

excuse me to interfere again, Jack Shayou Walker,
but you notice the dilemma with the words og PGI and delicate handed in one sentence??
My monitor gets serious cracks in displaying this

We'll see. I'm having fun for now, and I'm piloting the shittiest mechs on the losing side (apparently). No-where to go from here but up I guess. Cheers.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 25 December 2015 - 01:35 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 25 December 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

We'll see. I'm having fun for now, and I'm piloting the shittiest mechs on the losing side (apparently). No-where to go from here but up I guess. Cheers.

Thats the spirit

PS- Been doing CW on IS side and guess what? We kicking the green turkeys back to the hole they came from! My thunderbolts, are way too good... and these got nerfed? I can imagine when they were without the nerfs... damn... 2000+ dmg in all the matches IS quirkwarrior FTW

[Half Ear]

Hexenhammer, on 25 December 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

To expand not that, slower movement

From his other posts, I believe it is additional heat scale penalty marks/thresholds, like 33%, 66% then 100% instead of the just the 100% mark.

He is a snake though, so not sure of his thought processes.

Edited by Half Ear, 25 December 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

There are, unfortunately, a number of things that PGI has said are just not going to happen. The rational or, if you prefer, justification, varies, but mostly it comes down to limitations of the game engine, or limitations of their programmers.

A great many of those 'not going to happens' have profound implications for game balance. Mostly by their absence.

-Asymmetrical teams are one point that still comes up, repeatedly, as a suggestion years after PGI shot it down.

-Alternative ammunition loads. Advance the time-line some and bring in the alternative ammunition loads for IS ballistic and missile systems. There is a versatility here that the Clans lack, and to buff it more, give pilots the choice to configure loads while in dropship/mech-select mode, though restrict it to ammunition already allocated (exp. 5xtons of LRMs in mechlab, in dropship can pick from different ammunition available, but must carry 5 tons).

Unfortunately, while PGI has not come out and said 'no', they have repeatedly stated that programming issues prevent the LB-X-series autocannons from being able to fire both slug and shot. It seems logical that the same issues would carry over to here.


-True Engine damage. This could carry over to other mech components like the sensors (play into the info-warfare), gyro, and life support systems. The generally more robust nature of the Clan XL would balance against the harder-to-hit standard engine. Plus this would introduce a gradient system to negative performance instead of the all-or-nothing of the impairment tied to losing a side torso not an engine. (And yes, I realize that 'all-or-nothing' means death for one faction and...something less for the other). Furthermore a gradient system here would open it up to other uses, impairment of weapons as they take damage, or ancillary effects as heat climbs.

It seems, however, that while 'critting' works against weapons and additional equipment, it does not (and will not) function against the engine, gyro, and other core components.


Some of the other suggestions offered in the op and others are likewise unworkable from a gameplay perspective.

-Repair stations would need to be positioned so as not to be easily over-run (which would negate their benefit). Given the already cramped nature of some Omega zones such an area is difficult to conceive. As for when the IS is on the attack, they could be positioned on the approaches, but how often will a mech live long enough to escape and take advantage of them? How is it an advantage to have a 'last wave' of three or four mechs because those pilots were able to repair/rearm one of theirs through the previous waves?



Reconfiguring heat may be one solution, but we spent what, three months trying to rebalance speed, armor, weapons, and info-gathering. Saw some ideas (variable-damage lasers) nixed. Others (info-war), put on hold. And the Great Rebalancing should have been called the re-Quirkening. Massive changes to how heat works would need just as extensive testing, with no real guarantee of success, during which the folks at PGI do, justifiably, bum-all else, but have to listen to the vitriol that flows across these forums in the meantime.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Kael 17, on 25 December 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

-Asymmetrical teams are one point that still comes up, repeatedly, as a suggestion years after PGI shot it down.

Well... PGI didnt had much experience with this engine, nowadays it does. They ran on PTS the 10vs12 alot. It was possible. Made things well balanced, and please remember that in those days, the clans werent as nerfed as they are today...
Check NGNG videos to when they did the 10vs12 trials.
Conclusion, it was always a very close match to either sides... i do remember Sean Lang saying that the win would depend on teamplay.
Still, you will never get balance on a naturally unbalanced game. My solution will bring balance, do PUG drops clan vs clan and IS vs IS only. CW use 10vs12

[Hexenhammer]

Whelp. I think this thread is about ready for the garbage bin

[Jack Spade Ward]

Hexenhammer, on 26 December 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

Whelp. I think this thread is about ready for the garbage bin

Or maybe not.
So, more suggestions to add the ones i made on the inital post! Anyone?

[Imglidinhere]

krolmir, on 13 December 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Hmm, I feel like your problems on clan mechs stem from not keeping up with meta changes. SRMs are finally fixed, and even LRMs have emerged from the realm of useless. Laser builds as a whole, on clan side more so than IS are nerfed. Heat scale for clans is now inline with IS mechs when you consider they mount more HS, but they add less to heat cap. If you think IS mechs are so tough go run an Awesome and get back to me. Came around the arch in FC today, to my surprise I was staring down a DWF for about 2 seconds and while torso twisting my quirked arse off I still lost all my ST and CT armor, before I could comprehend what had just happened, I was effectively out of the match. Of course I fired back at him, but all I did was turn his armor a little yellow with my paltry 58 point spread damage alpha. Point here is this, name one IS mechs with more than 10 weapon hard points, there are none. Clans have Medium mechs that can mount more than 16!!? Even if you can't use them all at once the potential is there for an insane amount of dps just by chaining groups together; and unlike IS mechs Clan mechs have the DHS and/or speed to actually get away from from battle and live. There is one other fact that you didn't mention, and that is you always balance a game to the highest level of play, and if the "ultra competitve" merc groups are playing clans, its because Clan mechs are holding all the cards that matter.

Beautiful. This is my point in every conversation I have about clans. They are just better.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Imglidinhere, on 29 December 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Beautiful. This is my point in every conversation I have about clans. They are just better.

Sorry, i dont agree...

Clan's ACs were, since the beggining a problem! Fun, but problemetic, bad hit reg, spread damage too much, no pinpoint damage... they are fun to use, but not effective as their IS counterpart. PGI knows this, tried to make them better, like reduce the number of projectiles being fired. They became better, but still very much away from the IS counterpart...

Clan's SRMs weigh less, has the same speed as the IS SRMs, but (there is always a but lol) spread way more then the IS ones, and also, and take longer times to reload. In short, they look better than IS SRMs on paper, but, operationally are far worst.
Same for the LRMs... with the addition of the long, constent, stream line of missiles (blue for that matter... sweet) that look very nice but are, in fact, not effective... those too spread way too much, seems theres no diference (increase) in accuracy with artemis and also, that stream is also very easelly shot down by AMS, while the IS counterpart, is way better, as we all know

So, in fact, what was the only, reliable weapons on the clan side? Lasers... but those got nerfed every time there was a nerf...
And IS players get surprised that the laser vomit builds are so popular?

So, the meta changes... those only aplies to IS rather to the clans... Add to that the super quirks that IS do have... what do you get? Dominance!

I do play IS because it is the meta, the best mechs, more survivability, more DPS, pinpoint alphas, you name it!
Clans? Those are just for show...

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Spadejack, on 29 December 2015 - 07:24 PM, said:

Clan's ACs were, since the beggining a problem! Fun, but problemetic, bad hit reg, spread damage too much, no pinpoint damage... they are fun to use, but not effective as their IS counterpart. PGI knows this, tried to make them better, like reduce the number of projectiles being fired. They became better, but still very much away from the IS counterpart...

Clan UACs have been, powerful, fun, and viable since they got buffed. I've never found them to have bad hit reg or be problematic. They are simply different than IS ballistics which are more like cannons. Clan UACs fire as a stream of shells that act like a ballistic version of a laser. If you look at them under that light you'll find that they have just as much lethality and pinpoint capability as a laser once you get into a decent range.

IS ACs are certainly NOT better than clan UACs. They're very different weapons with different combat applications; they excel at different things.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 30 December 2015 - 12:57 AM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 30 December 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

Clan UACs have been, powerful, fun, and viable since they got buffed. I've never found them to have bad hit reg or be problematic. They are simply different than IS ballistics which are more like cannons. Clan UACs fire as a stream of shells that act like a ballistic version of a laser. If you look at them under that light you'll find that they have just as much lethality and pinpoint capability as a laser once you get into a decent range.

IS ACs are certainly NOT better than clan UACs. They're very different weapons with different combat applications; they excel at different things.

Jack, there are alot of posts about the clans ACs, check them out. Your opinion is your own, still, the problems related to it, are far well known.