160 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

Spadejack, on 14 December 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Sorry to disagree with you, but im not wrong, the numbers do talk for themselves. That thing Il Mechwarrior did you simply cant do on a clan mech, no matter how hard you try and even youre against your normal pug...
Face the fact, IS is just to powerfull now.

Evidence is truth and proof there is no 'IS OP' argument any more than 'Clan OP' argument.
Ignoring details to create a falsehood is politics, not an argument.

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 17 December 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

clan is useless and overnerfed, all clan weapons must be buffed, clan nerfs removed, all of them, even those on engine, and 10vs 12 introduced

Clan is not useless, 10 v 12 has been a long argument I believe was answered some time ago and not going to happen. Trying to balance for something not happening is just a waste of time.

[Karmen Baric]

Spadejack, on 10 December 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

Here is the post that i mentioned wich Il mechwarrior made that shows that when you get super-quircked mechs, that is the result:

http://mwomercs.com/...90#entry4867490

LOL shows no such thing!!!

Link proves a few things like;

Team work is OP
Veteran players is better than new players
Bringing coordinated unified dropdecks is better than varied dropdecks & its important to bring mechs set up for each map.

Il mechwarrior could have done the same thing with an all ERL Clan team against scrub PUGS like the ones he faced in the video

Edited by Karmen Baric, 17 December 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Wildstreak, on 17 December 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Evidence is truth and proof there is no 'IS OP' argument any more than 'Clan OP' argument.
Ignoring details to create a falsehood is politics, not an argument.

What??? Evidences can be the truth or not!!! But we are not talking about philosofy, or politics or what you consider arguments.
Those numbers are proof, evidences! If you dont want to consider those as evidence, then dont, its your prorrogotive, not mine and surelly not of many other people.
Remember on thing (and that you can learn on philosofy classes), your own reality, might not be my reality...

[Jack Spade Ward]

Karmen Baric, on 17 December 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

LOL shows no such thing!!!

Link proves a few things like;

Team work is OP
Veteran players is better than new players
Bringing coordinated unified dropdecks is better than varied dropdecks & its important to bring mechs set up for each map.

Il mechwarrior could have done the same thing with an all ERL Clan team against scrub PUGS like the ones he faced in the video

Keep reading his post, scroll down, and be amazed...
About team work, yes, i agree with you. This is a team effort game. If you are in an organized team, than chances of you winning are bigger, alot bigger... but you know when something is wrong when your team starts loosing hard, and olny scoring some (and i mean SOME) victories against pug IS teams in CW... So, what the last patch did was the confirmation that clan tech was dead and burried...

About my experince, i play IS and Clan mechs, i have 180 mechs, all of them mastered. Been in IS and Clan teams. Know almost every meta build, and played them all. So, in fact, i do actually know what im talking about

Edited by Spadejack, 18 December 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[General Solo]

Seems to me that the higher skilled players win
In my observations

Clans are better at team play and their mechs
IS Mechs better solo and team play

But the holy clan tri still rocks and the IS Wubber wobs rock as well

so its about even

Cheers

/RP freebirth clanner pours another drink /Rp off

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 19 December 2015 - 02:42 AM.

[lbxpryde]

balance damage per weapon and you balance the game.As long as clan er lasers give more damage for the same or less tonnage the game is not balanced period,end of discussion.Nerf clan er mediums to 5 damage with longer range and the game will be balanced.same with all the others.

[Lily from animove]

lbxpryde, on 19 December 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

balance damage per weapon and you balance the game.As long as clan er lasers give more damage for the same or less tonnage the game is not balanced period,end of discussion.Nerf clan er mediums to 5 damage with longer range and the game will be balanced.same with all the others.

no, as long as chassis can carry 3 lasers while others of same weight can carry 7 or 12 there won't be balance even if you equalise damage.

[Roland09]

Void Angel, on 10 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

[...]Battletech in the 1980s was played by weird people who knew what a THAC0 was, and even today tabletop gaming just isn't mainstream. Video games, however, are increasingly popularized - so I strongly suspect that, particularly with the Steam release, most players are not going to be terribly fanatical about the lore. Heck, I'm not, and I'm one sourcebook away from being able to simulate a full-scale planetary invasion from jumpship insertion to last 'mech standing - in double blind format.
[...]
BattleValue has similar issues - it comes down to having a game format where every player only controls one unit at a time. Essentially, it may be fun to play the Ogre, or it may be fun to play the opposing army - but for the vast majority of people, it's not fun to play one unit in the army.

Awesome display of nerdcore is awesome.

[Alteran]

I believe that if PGI truely wants 'balance' in MWO and particularly in CW, open up both sides of the tech to the teams. That way PGI can see which tech is chosen and which one performs the best.

I'm a diehard Clan tech user, but I've been dusting off old IS mechs lately and buying new ones just to see how they work in this latest 'balance' pass. IS Mechs are monsters on the field, hands down.

[Russhuster]

true if pgi would want - the thing is..........

[Padre Balistique]

Alteran, on 19 December 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

I believe that if PGI truely wants 'balance' in MWO and particularly in CW, open up both sides of the tech to the teams. That way PGI can see which tech is chosen and which one performs the best.

I'm a diehard Clan tech user, but I've been dusting off old IS mechs lately and buying new ones just to see how they work in this latest 'balance' pass. IS Mechs are monsters on the field, hands down.

Everyone already knows the answer to this.

if Clans were given IS weapons and IS was given clan weapons.. No Clanners would equip IS weapons and every IS player would load clan weapons.

Because clan weapons do more damage, at greater range with a lighter payload.

Clan heatsinks are smaller, and cause of lighter weapons, can mount more of them for a given loadout and critspace

not to mention clan XL near-immortality.

All it would take is looking at an average CW match to see this, clans can burn through IS armor obscenely fast, and depending on the mech even on the first alpha. Meanwhile IS mechs are stuck desperately firing off 2-3 alphas to try to strip armor.

All of this is why I scoff at idiots who cry that clans aren't OP, or more ludicrously, that the IS is OP.

[Doomerang]

If you hadn't only joined the game in June 2014, your opinion might carry some weight, any weight. There is no struggle for the IS. The IS is so incredibly unbalanced right now that IS pug groups give Clan 12 man pre-mades a run for their money when the IS do anything even remotely resembling basic coordination.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Padre Balistique, on 19 December 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Everyone already knows the answer to this.

if Clans were given IS weapons and IS was given clan weapons.. No Clanners would equip IS weapons and every IS player would load clan weapons.

Because clan weapons do more damage, at greater range with a lighter payload.

Clan heatsinks are smaller, and cause of lighter weapons, can mount more of them for a given loadout and critspace

not to mention clan XL near-immortality.

All it would take is looking at an average CW match to see this, clans can burn through IS armor obscenely fast, and depending on the mech even on the first alpha. Meanwhile IS mechs are stuck desperately firing off 2-3 alphas to try to strip armor.

All of this is why I scoff at idiots who cry that clans aren't OP, or more ludicrously, that the IS is OP.

You Sir, are one of those guys that even if the horse is dead, you keep on beating hit hoping it will ride again....

Seriously, i play IS and Clan, and i tell you, Clan tech is dead! It has been dying for quite sometime, since last patch, it was burried...
Been using the IIC mechs, and those dont even feel as good as their IS counterparts... those mechs could be fun if the heatsinks were in "normal" values.. IMO those IIC mechs are DOA

So, what to do? Its time to unnerf clan tech and nerf IS...

lbxpryde, on 19 December 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

balance damage per weapon and you balance the game.As long as clan er lasers give more damage for the same or less tonnage the game is not balanced period,end of discussion.Nerf clan er mediums to 5 damage with longer range and the game will be balanced.same with all the others.

This post made me laugh... LOL more nerfs you say? LOL
Ithink its time for you to go play a diferent game...

[Alteran]

Padre Balistique, on 19 December 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Everyone already knows the answer to this.

if Clans were given IS weapons and IS was given clan weapons.. No Clanners would equip IS weapons and every IS player would load clan weapons.

Because clan weapons do more damage, at greater range with a lighter payload.

Clan heatsinks are smaller, and cause of lighter weapons, can mount more of them for a given loadout and critspace

not to mention clan XL near-immortality.

All it would take is looking at an average CW match to see this, clans can burn through IS armor obscenely fast, and depending on the mech even on the first alpha. Meanwhile IS mechs are stuck desperately firing off 2-3 alphas to try to strip armor.

All of this is why I scoff at idiots who cry that clans aren't OP, or more ludicrously, that the IS is OP.

If you are looking straight up at the 'on paper' numbers you are correct, but the quirks are what tears that all to pieces. I've got a Spider with a 945m range with an ERLL. My Thunderbolts can fire LL's like crazy, etc.

In CW matches all you hear is keep out of sight because IS have the range advantage, they run cooler, fire faster, take off the 'GOD arm' of the Dragon... etc...

Were Clan weapons and mechs more powerful than IS mechs before the quirks happened? Absolutely. Wasn't that the point though? Isn't that Battletech? Now our unit is talking about how much the IS mechs are the Clan mechs that we had.

I guess what I expected was a game that had the mechanics of the drops to be adjusted for the introduction of the Clans. I guess that was too much given the existing game mechanics. PGI should have asked for a licence change and adjusted the timeline to the 4th Succession War and left it at that... if they wanted a 'balanced' game.

Now they tinker with the quirks and hope they get the IS tech up to par with Clans. Basically destroyed weapons that should rule the field, but are neglected by players because they just aren't worth the time and heat (ER PPC and Gauss). They won't get it right, because it was never supposed to be balanced.

That is the fundamental problem with Mechwarrior in 3050.

Edited by Alteran, 19 December 2015 - 07:37 PM.

[AbyssalTyrant]

Alteran, on 19 December 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

If you are looking straight up at the 'on paper' numbers you are correct, but the quirks are what tears that all to pieces. I've got a Spider with a 945m range with an ERLL. My Thunderbolts can fire LL's like crazy, etc.

In CW matches all you hear is keep out of sight because IS have the range advantage, they run cooler, fire faster, take off the 'GOD arm' of the Dragon... etc...

Were Clan weapons and mechs more powerful than IS mechs before the quirks happened? Absolutely. Wasn't that the point though? Isn't that Battletech? Now our unit is talking about how much the IS mechs are the Clan mechs that we had.

I guess what I expected was a game that had the mechanics of the drops to be adjusted for the introduction of the Clans. I guess that was too much given the existing game mechanics. PGI should have asked for a licence change and adjusted the timeline to the 4th Succession War and left it at that... if they wanted a 'balanced' game.

Now they tinker with the quirks and hope they get the IS tech up to par with Clans. Basically destroyed weapons that should rule the field, but are neglected by players because they just aren't worth the time and heat (ER PPC and Gauss). They won't get it right, because it was never supposed to be balanced.

That is the fundamental problem with Mechwarrior in 3050.

All right you convinced me you can have pre nerf clans back. As long as the clan players have to go through all the stupid "honor" rules they had to go through in the lore . Cause hey that's battletech , right?

Seriously do people actually think because the TT rules said one thing that it would work outside TT? Even HBS said they will focus on making a good VIDEO GAME first and foremost as well as picking a pre clan era.

If you honestly think that people wont just find something else to play if a game is massively unbalanced I dont even know what to say.

[Russhuster]

@Abyssal Tyrant
youre right there, and this is what actually happens, the numbers speak theyr own language
Battle of Tuk 1 17000 Players
Battle of Tuk 2 14000 Players

with malmost the same number of IS participants,.. more when one does consider most large mercenary units were pursuaded or out of choice playing on Clan side, and even with this many Merc UNits on Clan side one came almost immediately into a Clan DRop / we waitet about hardly 5 minutes at the longest,.. How long did you wait for an IS drop there?

Now the incoming new Players from Steam will delay that decreasing number of Clanners til these players realize the nerfed to death Clan Situation as well - What do you think will happen then?

It is a simple Balance thing

IF one side of the team gets piled up with Bonus over quirk over Bonus

WHILE the other side of the Team gets Nerf-Asskick after Nerf-Asskick over Years
guess wich side of the Team gets spoiled the fun out rather quickly

ELSEwise the players will vote wuthh the feet(or here the mouseclick) when the concernes are ignored

remember
We may fight against each other in the game BUT we are Playing this game together

Edited by Russhuster, 20 December 2015 - 03:38 AM.

[Padre Balistique]

Doomerang, on 19 December 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

If you hadn't only joined the game in June 2014, your opinion might carry some weight, any weight. There is no struggle for the IS. The IS is so incredibly unbalanced right now that IS pug groups give Clan 12 man pre-mades a run for their money when the IS do anything even remotely resembling basic coordination.

Ah yes, the standard fallback argument of someone who knows their position is full of ******** and is to much of a coward to admit it

"What do you know you've not played as long as me!"


The IS is so incredibly unbalanced precisely because they cant compete against the clans. clans have every advantage. Quirks? IS quirks are like having a tree to hide behind in a hurricane, sure it'll give you some benefit but you're still gonna end up blown away and impaled on something.

Besides, the only quirks IS get are range (which is still inferior to clans outside of like..two one trick ponies whose very tiny mostly pointless avantage is negated after the first shot when clans turn to move on them)

cooldown (Oh wow, our vastly inferior weapons can fire 10% sooner and stll do nothing to approach the DPS of the clans)

heat gen (Oh wow, so we might be able to fire one more weapon. Here we go 40point alpha, I'm sure clans with double that will be concerned.)

and structure quirks (Oh wow, so now you can only burn off our armor and most of our internals in a single shot. Woe upon the clans, life is so hard, they have to shoot twice to kill now.

while, almost every clan mech carries around double the damage potential of its IS counterparts, can mount more heatsinks to run cooler thanks to lighter weapons and smaller sinks.

And on a final note, every clan mech can survive a ST loss, and not just because your XL engines, but because half of a clan mech is on average just as powerful, often more so, than its IS counterparts.

And if you want playability and not raw logic, just look at CW. Multiple IS alphas from multiple mechs to core out a clan mech, meanwhile Clan mechs can and do just march through open gates, ignoring massed and focused fire, and able to take out all generators and often start on omega before the IS units can finally burn through their armor.

It is literally impossible for IS to do the same tactic against clans.

But you'll ignore all this and try to find some miniscule hole to launch an attack and devalue my entire statement (Possibly something as clever as using my registration date), because people like you only care about maintaining your advantageous position. You'll cry about IS mechs scratching your paint, demand the game adhere to lore (only so far as it benefits the clans, of course, no one dare mentions Zellbrigen, the fact that clans wouldn't use arty or airstrikes, or that the clans should be inferior in numbers and weight to their IS counterparts) so.. whatever.

[Russhuster]

you should report the stuff youre smoking theres definitely not only dope in it

just get a clan chassis and try it yourself how tremendously op clantech is
what of an alpha you can fire with 2 heavy lasers for example with more the ghost heat goes just through the roof and brings your mech to shutdown
you cant fire more than one large cannon / UAC
you cannot fire more than 2 heavy or 5-6 medium lasers
without a ghost heat penalty that blows the wind out of you
wiith 10+ additional double heat sinks you may be able to fire 2 large missle launchers but even that with ghost heat penalty
when i run IS mechs i can fire 4 heavy Pulse lasers 3-4 times bevore i get even in red area

I do not say i played more time than you so your opinion does not count but you describe the Clans as they are described in BT lore but LOre has absolute nothing to do with MWO

so iam asking
Where does a Clan mech have double armor than a IS mech in the same tonnage?
or do you compare a direwolf with a locust?

Iam asking further you to stop lying
The only quirked advantage be range for example, thats a lie
For proof see the Highlander for example I do not take the biggest quirk bucket the thunderbolt( wich has heat quirks out of the heaven extra) here just an average second row IS mech
Acc Rate +55% = Speed quirk
Dec Rate + 55% = " "
Turn Rate + 35%= Agility quirk
Add Armor RA + 19 = Armor quirk
Add AR LA + 19 = " "
Add Str CT + 29 = Survival ability quirk
Add Str LT + 15
Add Str RT + 15
Add Str RA + 10
Add Str LA +10
Add Turn Angle + 10 Agility quirk
Torso movement Jaw +15% Agility quirk
Ballistic velocity +10% Accuracy quirk
Ballistic Cooldown -10% Damage output (DPS) quirk
Energy weapon range + 25% !!! Range quirk
Energy cooldown -10% DPS quirk
Laser duration -10% Accuracy and DPS quirk
Missle velocity +10% DPS quirk

so stop not telling the truth

The heat is a wider field - IS weapons generate less heat AND get up to 25% heat generation Bonus via quirks
- Clan double heat sinks? with a capacity of 1.1 compared to IS single heat sinks with a capacity
of 1 are a joke IS double Heat sinks have a capacity of 1.4 for example
- Ghost heat on IS side? have you noticed any ?

And a damage potential in a clan mech i d be careful with i am sure you can proof your assumption? so go ahead please do
Weapon restrictions on clan side are hitting hard like no firing 2 heavy AC or UAC elsewide the ghost heat kills you
No firing of more Gauss cannons neither they simply wont charge themselves at the same time

Not speaking of the speed advantage IS has due to reactor swap ability

so the picture i see is a invertet one of what you described, but please feel free to proove iam wrong

[Jack Spade Ward]

Padre Balistique, on 20 December 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Ah yes, the standard fallback argument of someone who knows their position is full of ******** and is to much of a coward to admit it

"What do you know you've not played as long as me!"


The IS is so incredibly unbalanced precisely because they cant compete against the clans. clans have every advantage. Quirks? IS quirks are like having a tree to hide behind in a hurricane, sure it'll give you some benefit but you're still gonna end up blown away and impaled on something.

Besides, the only quirks IS get are range (which is still inferior to clans outside of like..two one trick ponies whose very tiny mostly pointless avantage is negated after the first shot when clans turn to move on them)

cooldown (Oh wow, our vastly inferior weapons can fire 10% sooner and stll do nothing to approach the DPS of the clans)

heat gen (Oh wow, so we might be able to fire one more weapon. Here we go 40point alpha, I'm sure clans with double that will be concerned.)

and structure quirks (Oh wow, so now you can only burn off our armor and most of our internals in a single shot. Woe upon the clans, life is so hard, they have to shoot twice to kill now.

while, almost every clan mech carries around double the damage potential of its IS counterparts, can mount more heatsinks to run cooler thanks to lighter weapons and smaller sinks.

And on a final note, every clan mech can survive a ST loss, and not just because your XL engines, but because half of a clan mech is on average just as powerful, often more so, than its IS counterparts.

And if you want playability and not raw logic, just look at CW. Multiple IS alphas from multiple mechs to core out a clan mech, meanwhile Clan mechs can and do just march through open gates, ignoring massed and focused fire, and able to take out all generators and often start on omega before the IS units can finally burn through their armor.

It is literally impossible for IS to do the same tactic against clans.

But you'll ignore all this and try to find some miniscule hole to launch an attack and devalue my entire statement (Possibly something as clever as using my registration date), because people like you only care about maintaining your advantageous position. You'll cry about IS mechs scratching your paint, demand the game adhere to lore (only so far as it benefits the clans, of course, no one dare mentions Zellbrigen, the fact that clans wouldn't use arty or airstrikes, or that the clans should be inferior in numbers and weight to their IS counterparts) so.. whatever.

LOL again... this one post made me laugh so much... LOL

You need to learn what BT is all about! And get yourself into a clan unit, see for yourself how tough is CW now and how OP IS has been (even before the patch)!

If you are one of those IS fan boys, make us all a favor, quit this game and go play counter strike or battlefield or something, since you seem to like FPS "balanced" games...

[HydroSqueegee]

I'm a long time player, so I guess my word can carry some weight.

I played IS mechs for a looong time. Continued to do so even after the Clan release. Realized the Clan mechs, in most cases, we're leapes and bounds better than the IS mechs. Swapped over to piloting Timbers almost all the time and then rolled around in a Cheetah when they came out. Both of those are amazing chassis and can do everything better than the IS can throw at them. The recent nerds to the clan mechs have brought them much more in line, but they are still beasts on the battlefield.

I still enjoy a select few IS mechs to run, but it's mostly silly builds and things just to goof off in. Some are meta beasts. But not much comes up to par with the clan mechs. If IS was viable in the competitive meta, we would see the big units running them in comp matches, but all you see are Dires, Hellbringers, Timber wolfs, Cheetahs and Cauldron Borns. That alone is enough to show that clan mechs are better. When the comp teas don't use 99% of the IS mechs in favor of clan, there is imbalance. Those groups gravitate to the most effective and powerful builds. IS mechs on that list are slim to none.

I feel no clander can call IS mechs OP and Clan tech dead and buried when clan mechs are still the go to for the top teams. Once comp teams are an even mix of IS and Clan, then we can call things 'balanced'.