258 replies to this topic

[LeeNTien]

nehebkau, on 13 December 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Since you have no clue I will spell it out:

....

Truth is I don't care that clan mechs are better. I have all the clan mechs and most (except DWFs -- which i hate with a passion) are mastered and I play IS in CW because I want to and I accept that a 5% advantage just means I have to play 10% better.

Well, since YOU have no clue I will spell it out:

Why IS Standard Engines make them slightly better in general and considerably better at surviving:

1. IS Standard engines do not explode when you loose a torso giving you slightly more time to keep fighting (due to clan-XL-engines lose 25% of speed and torso-twist after explosion, damaging a mech's ability to stay alive further considerably)

• A longer time in battle due to not affected speed and torso twist and ability to effectively use asymmetric builds = more damage
  
• A longer time in battle = more damage absorbed and not put on a healthy team-mate = team-mate living slightly longer = team mate can do more damage.
  
• IS mechs having more structure in general, with additional buffs - balance Clans' advantage in dps, making both sides live pretty much the same time when faced with each other.

2. True, but there is no ability to choose, unlike with IS, where you can adjust and build up according to the chosen tactic, and not just be stuck with an engine you might not even like for a particular mech.

3. Irrelevant in a well organized unit, which uses the same mechs with same builds anyway = same speed. And it's always the organized units, that win, so, that factor is more relevant.

4. Not very relevant due to Clans rarely using Dakka, apart from certain team-builds, that employ 12-men-dakka tactics, and rely upon quantity of the dakka per second, not longevity of it. Clans are generally do better as LV, due to the range advantage.... unless they face specifically built IS LV/MPL teams, then it all comes down to who's better trained. In any case - CASE is not that big of a deal there. But it is a slight advantage in some builds, yes.

Now, please stop trying to make up the clan advantage by denying that IS have it's strengths as well, that Clans simply lack in this game, because you feel better imagining, that you are some sort of an underdog. The differences, after the last re-balance, are definitely not big enough to warrant any more nerfs to either side, since the balance, regardless of the lore not being followed - is actually there. Generally if you are being slaughtered (stomped) by any unit its just because they are playing better than you and if you are having problems with either the Arctic Cheetah or the T-bolts - its because you are not focusing targets well enough.

Is that good an answer?

Edited by LeeNTien, 14 December 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Etgfrog]

What I'm confused about, why the clans are complaining about the nerf when the thunderbolt 5ss got a bit of a range nerf. Then again going from 50% range bonus with medium pulse lasers to 30% range bonus might not be the biggest deal. The 2nd most used IS mech got its laser duration quirk removed entirely and a bit of a cooldown nerf.

In my opinion, because clan mechs are higher priced, it is a higher bar of entry. On the other hand, seeing the difference in both damage and team damage...that to me says clan mechs were firing more often.

I think we should wait for the next set of stats before you truely jump to conclusions. We dont have the true matches won amount, just the amount of territory held at the end. Although a better stat to see would be comparing the average PSR of clans and IS.

Actualy, we can get some incomplete data using what we already have. The average clan pilot got 7.6 score. The average IS pilot got 4.97. That pretty much says clans got quite a few more wins. By my estimates, roughly 59% of games were won by the clans.

Edited by Etgfrog, 14 December 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[demoyn]

Monkey Lover, on 14 December 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

I was thinking 6 because i was looking at the bj1dc.. I still run 7 lasers counting the one in the head and you still have 3 more pods to use lol

Because I don't have a tonnage limit or anything, right?

Stormcrow laser vomits run either 3 ERLL, 3 LPL, or 1 LPL and 4 ERML right now. That's about it. Hardpoints really don't mean anything if they're not being used.

By comparison, the Arrow uses 3 ERLL, the BJ-1X uses 3 LL, 2 ML or 6 ML and 2 MPL, and the BJ-3 uses 3 LPL. Speaking purely from a weapons standpoint, the Blackjack more than holds its own. Speaking from an overall balance perspective the Blackjack is hands down better from a ton to ton ratio.

Edited by demoyn, 14 December 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[Spetulhu]

LeeNTien, on 14 December 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

IS Standard engines do not explode when you loose a torso giving you slightly more time to keep fighting (due to clan-XL-engines lose 25% of speed and torso-twist after explosion, damaging a mech's ability to stay alive further considerably)

You are of course 100% right, but you don't mention the other considerations here, A mech with a STD IS engine will for sure carry less weapons than one with a IS or Clan XL engine. And the clanner with his XL engine will fight on for a while where an IS mech with an XL is down after losing a side torso.

[Wing 0]

Spetulhu, on 14 December 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

You are of course 100% right, but you don't mention the other considerations here, A mech with a STD IS engine will for sure carry less weapons than one with a IS or Clan XL engine. And the clanner with his XL engine will fight on for a while where an IS mech with an XL is down after losing a side torso.

Did you forget that clan mechs cant change engines at all except the origins and their variants? Once the origins come out theres going to be some idiot first thing in the morning stating that they are op. if they do, they can always leave MWO. We don't need weaklings here.

Edited by Wing 0, 14 December 2015 - 12:54 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Total IS Players: 7929 (1275 more players)
Total Clan Players: 6654

You need to break the numbers down into chunks of 12.

Number of total built clan drops: 554 with 6 pilots left over.
Number of total built IS drops: 660 with 9 pilots left over.

What this means is that 106 IS built drops were waiting in queue longer than a fully built Clan drop.

What I'm more interested in are the wait times for IS vs Clan and the average PSR rating of the pilots of IS vs Clan.


Also, your damage done stats, while accurate are incomplete. You get an inaccurate view when you don't factor in the other stats, namely total number of destroyed mechs:

Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 94,238,853
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 103,998,101

Total IS Mechs destroyed: 282,828
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 276,205

Damage done to IS mechs / number of IS mechs destroyed: 103,998,101 / 282,828 == 367.71 damage dealt to each IS mech to kill it
Damage done to Clan mech / number of Clan mechs destroyed: 94,238,853 / 276,205 == 341.19 damage dealt to each Clan mech to destroy it

Now, while this is a more accurate picture it's still not entirely accurate as it fails to factor in the damage dealt to Clan mechs that didn't kill them. And this is important since Clans won more, which means they likely had more mechs still standing at the end of the match than IS.

So I'm still waiting on Part 2 of the Tuk 2 stats.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 14 December 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[Drunk Canuck]

LeeNTien, on 13 December 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Not anymore.

And people who point at the damage done by clans vs IS extra weight - you don't think that's THE reason for the extra damage? Those extra 10 t. meaning tougher mechs + all those extra structure HP - there you go. Clans do more damage because IS have more HP.
While the disparity in mechs destroyed is only 6.5 thousand - 1 mech-kill per clan player.

I wonder what the opinion is going to be if the next Clan pack has the Griffin IIC and Shadow Hawk IIC. The Griffin is a solid 15 tons LIGHTER than it's IS equivalent, with the Shadowhawk being a whole 10 tons lighter. Less armor for both Mech's, but they still have Clan tech weapons.

Either way, I don't see the increased IS tonnage limits as being something that was an improvement for IS in CW. Assaults are generally too slow for the gameplay on either side, while heavies and speedy mediums seem to be the flavor of the month because the mixture of speed and fire power on such large maps is such a crucial benefit.

[fbj]

Monkey Lover, on 11 December 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

So how many of you clan players would take a

5ss over a timber
Bj-1x over a storm crow
RVN-3l over a ACH


I own every one of these mechs and i would take the clans and i do when we public Q. Sorry but the balance is better but its not balanced.

With the structural bonuses I play these mechs more in Solo Queue than I play my Clan Mechs. I cannot wait to go IS

[VorpalAnvil]

fbj, on 14 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

With the structural bonuses I play these mechs more in Solo Queue than I play my Clan Mechs. I cannot wait to go IS

The CoS review of the December 1st patch provided a 1v1 between a SCR and a BJ1-X. The crow got royally rekt. IS is total EZ mode right now.

[hybrid black]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If this isn't hard date proof then I don't know what is....


The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million... That just doesn't seem right. And before the white knights go on parade here I want to remind you that both sides have new players no just the IS. The stats don't lie. Someone is using OP mechs and weapons.... just saying



Total IS Players: 7929 (1275 more players)

Total Clan Players: 6654



Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 94238853 (9,759,248 less damage)
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 103998101

Now your telling me that IS had almost 1300 more players and did almost 10 million less damage? And don't go into that teamwork using comms crap because even if the Clan players were better (highly doubtful) the damage difference is still WAY off.

Parade away white knights.

ok a few things

- it doesnt matter if there was more IS players then clan both have 12 in a drop

- ton for ton the IS takes more damage to die with the new quirks

- the better players were clan, 90% + of the top players in this game were clan

[purplewasabi]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

lol Only took 3 minutes for my post to get knighted and boy was that a whopper. So your basicly saying that most of the IS players SUCK and that we just take longer to kill ... lol

I'm an IS player and this pretty much sums it up. Too many players on the IS side just point fingers at the Clanners whenever they lose. Its not going to solve anything, and NO, PGI. Stop nerfing the Clans, people will never learn that way. I saw many of them, intentionally and unintentionally, volunteering to be fodder. If you asked me, majority of the IS chose to lose. I saw this one guy took 2 Anansi, with 2 other heavies/assaults into a CW game... he was crit in his 2nd Anansi and after several attempts to persuade him to switch mechs, he simply asked us to STFU.

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

I am just assuming that every player in this game is 100% equal to each other and in that regard the numbers do not add up. What you and everyone here is saying is that the Clan were out numbered and had to work harder than the IS to not only out damage the IS but also win the event. I call BS.

Every player in this game is 100% equal? HAHAHahahahaha... assumptions.

Edited by purplewasabi, 14 December 2015 - 07:16 PM.

[purplewasabi]

I'm not sure where to post this, so I guess I'll continue here. One of the reason I participated in the CW event is because the top teams are going to be there (MS, 228, CWI etc). I'm no strategist, and we just don't have the resources, we have other commitments etc. So one way to learn is to play against the top teams and make sure you observe how they run the show, learn and if possible find out weaknesses in their approach. It worked to some extent. We managed to fend off smaller Clan units, but we still struggle against the top teams which was expected (they're not one trick ponies, plus they have some really good players). The crew I was running with, we managed to pick up a few things from our enemies and we were doing well. I had a good time.

Edited by purplewasabi, 14 December 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[greyfox485]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but what about Clan vs Clan matches? I know that only accounts for a small percentage, but it will make a bit of a difference.

Can IS fight IS?

[EgoSlayer]

greyfox485, on 14 December 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but what about Clan vs Clan matches? I know that only accounts for a small percentage, but it will make a bit of a difference.

Can IS fight IS?

There was no Clan vs Clan or IS vs IS matches in the Battle of Tukayyid. All the matches were only IS vs Clan.

Also, unit numbers are up:
http://mwomercs.com/...d-stats-part-2/

[Adamski]

Notice how units that swapped between IS & Clan, had higher win% while driving their Clan mechs than while driving their IS mechs.

[Clownwarlord]

Was the Tukayyid event balanced? No. IS couldn't use its population to win the event even though Clan got to use its superior weapons That's how IS won in lore so come on let us flood the clan with numbers.

[STEF_]

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

Notice how units that swapped between IS & Clan, had higher win% while driving their Clan mechs than while driving their IS mechs.

clownwarlord, on 15 December 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

Was the Tukayyid event balanced? No. IS couldn't use its population to win the event even though Clan got to use its superior weapons That's how IS won in lore so come on let us flood the clan with numbers.

Damage done to IS mechs / number of IS mechs destroyed: 103,998,101 / 282,828 == 367.71 damage dealt to each IS mech to kill it
Damage done to Clan mech / number of Clan mechs destroyed: 94,238,853 / 276,205 == 341.19 damage dealt to each Clan mech to destroy it.

As far as I read the stats part 2.....sorry but all I can read is that IS has a looooooot of noobs doing bad.
And Clan won because there were better pilots and units there.

Deal with it.

[Adamski]

Nothing you posted addressed my point at all, so I'm not sure why you included my quote in your post.

But I will reiterate, Pilots did better when driving Clan mechs than when those exact same pilots were driving their IS mechs.

Whether that has to do with them dropping solo, and the average teammate PSR went up by moving to the Clans, or if that has to do with differences between tech bases, remains to be shown.

Breaking it down by unit Win%
1-50: Clans advantage by 6.5%
51-200: Clans advantage by 1.5%
201-250: IS advantage by 2%

Edited by Adamski, 15 December 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[MaxFool]

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

Notice how units that swapped between IS & Clan, had higher win% while driving their Clan mechs than while driving their IS mechs.

Actually, you can't deduce anything from that. It could be because clan had superior mechs and weapons, but you have other possible explanations for it it too. Any clan vs IS imbalance would explain that result, including clans having better players and groups. Fight on IS side, you are facing tougher opponents, your win rate is lower; fight for clans you are facing weaker opponents, your win rate goes up. You could even explain it by saying that the game modes were advantageous for clans.

All you can deduce is that clans had advantage, not what that advantage was. And we already know clans had advantage because they won more drops and did more kills.

That being said, you can just look at the unit list and see that every single top competitive unit played for clans.

Edited by MaxFool, 15 December 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Adamski]

Yes, the most skilled and most competitive units went to the Clans.

Its always been my assertion that for winning a match: Skill > Teamwork > Tech
As can be seen in many times unskilled 12 mans lose out to skilled pugs, but skilled 12 mans beat skilled pugs.

It wont be until PGI releases Tukayyid stats part 3: PSR, that we can hope to glean some useful information about the average drop groups average skill, and what impact if any that has on win%.